Talk:Irish language

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[edit] Bilingual official documents?

"All official documents of the Irish Government must be published in both Irish and English or Irish alone (this is according to the official languages act 2003, which is enforced by "an comisinéir teanga", the language ombudsman)."

Don't think that this is the case....can we have some evidence?Eog1916 (talk) 10:51, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Not all, but many: http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/acts/2003/a3203.pdf ~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.17.114.185 (talk) 00:46, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

This is in the official languages act, have you even looked at it? It is true, I bought a copy of this act in government publications in Dublin, maybe you should read the act before making such ignorant statements, read the act and you will be proven wrong194.46.234.121 (talk) 15:18, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of pronounciation guides

The pronounciation of the word "Gaelic" is purely subjective. A scottish person may say ['gælɪk], but many others (such as americans) may say ['geɪlɪk]. The only reason that some people in Ireland say ['gælɪk] when referring to Scottish Gaelic is because they're imitating the Scottish pronounciation. If you were to say "The Gaelic of Ireland" or "The Gaelic of Scotland" instead, the word "gaelic" wouldn't change. What does anyone else think? Stephen Shaw (talk) 19:24, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

The Americans I know say ['gælɪk] when they're talking about Scottish Gaelic and ['geɪlɪk] when they're talking about Irish Gaelic. The same goes for the Scots and the Irish people I know. —Angr If you've written a quality article... 19:44, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
In the same way, Many Americans (and Canadians) that I know would say ['geɪlɪk] throughout. As I've said before, it's subjective Stephen Shaw (talk) 12:45, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
In my experience, "Gaelic" is not used much at all. Irish people call Irish Irish and Scots Gaelic Scots Gaelic ('geɪlɪk). --Gronky (talk) 21:32, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
In Irish Gaelic we say 'Gaeilge na hÉireann' for Irish Gaelic and 'Gaeilge na hAlban' for Scottish Gaelic. I think thet Scottish Gaelic speakers say 'Gàidhlig na h-Alba, and Gàidhlig na h-Eireann. So one would expect an Irish or a Scottish person speaking in English to refer to the Gaelic language of Ireland and Scotland as Gaelic. Their pronounciation of the word Gaelic would of course reflect regional accents.Eog1916 (talk) 16:52, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I think that we should acknowledge the use of the word "Gaelic" (it is actually used quite often internationally to distiguish between Irish and Scottish Gaelic. What I disagree with is telling people how to pronounce the word. There are many, many accents in English, and all would pronounce the word slightly differently. Take the word "potato". If we (for some strange reason!) wanted to talk about the potatoes of Scotland as opposed to those of Ireland, we wouldn't deliberately pronounce the word in a scottish accent. I know it's a dodgy analogy, but it's all that I can think of! Stephen Shaw (talk) 20:29, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Names of the Language: In English

The entry states that "Gaelic or the Gaelic is often used by the older generation and by the Irish diaspora but now rarely by Irish learners of the language themselves." Is there any source evidence that it is legitimately called "Gaelic or the Gaelic" in English by older people resident in the Republic? Because I have never, ever heard this term used here. It is Irish in English and Gailge in Irish. I understand how the name of the language was mangled into "Gaelic" in other English speaking countries via the diaspora and continues outside of Ireland today, but saying this term is used by Irish people in Ireland gives it a credibility that I do not believe it has.

Failing the emergence of the needed citation, I would prefer to edit this statement out. DarlingBri (talk) 11:52, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I've personally heard plenty of Gaelgóirí reference "Gaelic" when labelling the language in English. It may be a hard one to source, but I suppose under WP:VER it's probably required. Apart from my own experience, I would also offer this link. It is not offered as a verifying reference for inclusion in the article. Just as a support to my "anecdotal" comment above. Guliolopez (talk) 13:08, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
No, that's fine, and maybe it's a regional thing as well. Perhaps:

The official name of the language in English as framed by the Constitution is Irish. Throughout Ireland, the language is most often referred to as Irish by speakers, learners and in popular culture. Gaelic or the Gaelic is more commonly used to identify the language by members of the Irish diaspora and their descendants, and less commonly by native Irish speakers in Ireland. Linguistically, Gaelic more accurately refers to the Goidelic branch of Celtic languages, of which Irish is only one instance. DarlingBri (talk) 14:20, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

In The Aran Islands, John Millington Synge, himself an Irishman, uses both terms "Irish" and "Gaelic" interchangeably to refer to the language. The Gaelic League originated in Ireland but didn't call itself the "Irish League" in English, perhaps partly because that name would have made it less clear that the league's focus of interest was the language. And, anecdotally, the first time I was in Ireland (1995) I was in a bookshop and asked an older man (then probably in his late 60s/early 70s) if there were any books in Irish there, and he said, "You mean Gaelic?" —Angr If you've written a quality article... 16:11, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Anecdotally too, I take statements such as "most Irish people call it Irish" with a pinch of salt, as I do with any statements where ideological issues are at stake. Most Irish people I personally know call it Gaelic very innocently and have been surprised when I've told them that [according to wikipedians] "Gaelic" is old fashioned. That said, these days I usually call it "Irish" or "Irish Gaelic", because "Gaelic" to me means Scottish Gaelic and its often necessary to avoid confusing the two. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:27, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm absolutely happy to be schooled - I really just want the entry to be clear and accurate and if possible, deal with the confusing fact that Gaelic is (or is more accurately, or is also) the grouping of Irish/Manx/SG. It seems that we have determined that the term is in use, is still current, and it is not the exclusive domain of older people in Ireland. Would my suggested rewrite above at 14:20 cover this adequately? DarlingBri (talk) 16:43, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I think the proposed change is fine. I would however change "and less commonly by native Irish speakers in Ireland", to "and also by native Irish speakers in Ireland". Cheers Guliolopez (talk) 16:53, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
I would like to see some kind of statistical evidence for such an assertion. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 20:42, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
"It is Irish in English and Gailge in Irish." In my experience, it is mostly called Irish, and less often called Gaelic, and I was fluent in Irish in the 1960s. May mum who was super-fluent, of Kinvara all-Irish school 1930s, mostly called it Irish, and sometimes "Gaelic". I believe they called it "Irish" (Erse) in Scotland up until about 1800 or so. So, when speaking English, it's either "Irish" or "Gaelic" or even "Gailge". After all, we were bi-lingual for many years, and officially still are. 78.19.42.188 (talk) 21:46, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
From about 1500 until 1750 Scottish Gaelic was often called Erse, yes. Not really relevant though. Statistical evidence is really necessary for this kind of claim and is the only way of verifying such info beyond taking a anecdotal straw poll on wiki. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 23:34, 8 April 2008 (UTC)