Template talk:Infobox religious building

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[edit] How to use?

I think that this template, or something derived from it or similar to it, could be of great use. As near as I can tell, there is no other infobox for this purpose, and as many religious complexes (I'm thinking particularly of Buddhism & Shinto) do not consist of a single building, with a known architect, client, construction cost, etc, the more generic Architecture/Building infoboxes do not really apply.

  • How do we use this template? - I think a detailed description here would be very useful. Some of the questions I'm asking may be answered on the talk pages of a dozen other infoboxes, but they're not answered here, and they should be, please.
    • How do we input geographical coordinates?
    • What is meant by "district"? Is this meant as a reference to Christian dioceses?
    • What is meant by "status"? Are we meant to put "Active", "In use", "Open to the public", "Open for services, charged admission for tourists" or what? The establishment of some standards for this field would be good.
    • What's the difference between Architecture Type & Style?
    • I think it's great that elements are included here for spires, domes, and minarets. "Spire" could probably be useful to describe the pagoda height, I suppose, though it may be pertinent, as applies to large complexes rather than individual buildings, to include fields for total area and number of buildings.
    • Might be keen to create a field for saints/deities to which a particular church is dedicated. Christian churches tend to be devoted to individual saints, while Buddhist temples of all sects can be devoted to different Buddhas or Bodhissattvas, and Shinto shrines are dedicated to individual kami.
    • Might be good to include a color field, so we can help make this all look nicer (I really don't like the grey), and to help distinguish religions, according to the color guide seen at Wikipedia:List of infoboxes/Society#Religion.

I apologize to be a pain, criticizing or whatever. But I do not know the first thing about coding templates, and in any case, as I'm not especially active on religious topics moreso than other topics, I think this is best left to members of WikiProject Religion and/or to the original creator of the template. Thank you very much. LordAmeth 12:45, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Let's see, I made this from my experiences, which is does not include any experience in the Roman Catholic Church, but I also tried to make it fairly generic so that it can be used by anyone/any religion.
  • I had intended diocese/district to be synonymous. Some protestant denominations use district (i.e. the UMC Church).
  • I intended the status field to denote the ecclesiastical status of a building. (I.e. Cathedral, Basilica).
  • Regarding architectural type v. architectural status I'm not entirely sure what the difference is (this template is based off one that had been proposed before, but was never created). I guess we could just remove the architectural type field.
  • I like to last two ideas. I'll make something up and in a sandbox over the next two weeks and post a note here. I'm going out of town for a week and leaving the laptop behind so I have to wait until I get back in the land of connectivity. -- Sapphire 14:49, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cathedral of Our Lady of Peace

I've employed the template in the article about the Cathedral of Our Lady of Peace in Honolulu, Hawaii and like the idea of developing this template for use on more articles concerning religious houses of worship. In terms of Roman Catholicism, I had to add a Province section to the Infobox and used the diocesan name under District. I guess people can look at this particular Cathedral to see how the Infobox could work and determine improvements. Gerald Farinas 17:22, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] misspellings

I noticed that this template has a few misspellings in the argument names: "religous", multiple instances of "quanity". Is there any way to fix that without breaking existing uses of the template? JavaTenor 09:48, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I could do a work-around, but I'll go ahead and just fix all of the templates. Thanks for pointing that out. -- Sapphire 23:10, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Done. All templates currently in use should be fixed, though a lot of articles only used parts of the template. -- Sapphire 23:54, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Improvements

Does anybody have any objections to me...

  1. Adding latitude, longitude and map_type fields to add the same dynamic map functionality as {{Infobox Historic building}}?
  2. Fiddling with the css to bring this more in line with other infoboxes? The black horizontal lines are a little distracting.

...? Joe D (t) 14:45, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Coordinates

Would anyone object to having the coordinates display in the infobox when entered as "latitude" & "longitude", as they currently do if entered as "coordinates"? Andy Mabbett 10:44, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bug

As can be seen at Template:Infobox religious building/test, the template as it currently stands is placing a "-" in the top left of the body of the article. I'm not sure whether or not that was caused by my recent edit, but can't see why it would have been. Any ideas? Andy Mabbett 16:43, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

  • I have also noticed this - and find it very annoying! I hope it wasn't me either! I also can't seem to trace the problem, although I have no experience in template formatting. Help somebody!!! Chesdovi 14:12, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
  • I noticed it too the bug is awful. I found an extra - in the code and removed it but the - is still on the pages. These boxes are very complicated for how simple they can look. I don't know how to fix it, I hope someone shows up who does. D. Recorder 04:47, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Fixed. –Pomte 05:25, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] geo

For articles using the parameter geo, such as Temple of Saint Sava, the {{coord}} overlaps with the line. I suggest taking it outside the template. –Pomte

[edit] Franchise expansion

I created three additional templates:

The idea is to color code the templates to identify the specific religion and/or denomination/sect a specific building is identified with. (I.e. Sunni/Shia.) If consensus is to expand the template to use the color coded templates along with this one (which could serve as generic cover-all). The templates are a bit older so I'll have to update everything to add all the changes others have made to this template. -- Sapphire 01:07, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

This is bad. Color can and should be specified as a parameter, this is creating multiple redundancies and potential for the templates to get out of sync. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 01:34, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I like the idea of using color to help distinguish between specific groups using both Sapphire and Night Gyr's ideas I have taken and created a template that automatically colors the infobox based on what value is placed within the religious affiliation parameter. So far I have only mimicked the colors from Sapphire's three templates and then the default color. The template can be seen at User:Dan9186/Sandbox/Infobox relgious building. What other groups should be put to specific colors and what colors? ~Dan9186 November 24, 2007 00:50 (UTC)

I have gone ahead and applied the color changing scheme with a handful of colors. Add colors for different affiliations as you see fit. -- Dan9186(T • E • C) November 29, 2007 04:39 (UTC)

[edit] Image and image size

Something that needs to be fixed with this infobox is the image field. [[Image:picture.ext|size]] should not have to be put into a field. The template needs to be fixed to have image be picture.ext and then another field for image_size that defaults to 250px if no size is specified. Any suggestions short of making the changes and then fixing all of the articles that use the template? ~Dan9186 November 24, 2007 02:23 (UTC)

I have proceeded with making the changes to the image code in the template. I have also created a list of all the articles containing the template with the old syntax at Infobox Religious Building To Do. I am working on making the changes on the articles to reflect the new code those who wish to assist in the changes please do so. If you use the list please cross out the articles that are completed. -- Dan9186(T • E • C) December 8, 2007 00:06 (UTC)
I have written many of the articles on Cheshire churches and used the infobox. I am willing to deal with these in the "Category:Churches in Cheshire" over the next day or so (I have already done Christ Church, Macclesfield). I may reduce the size of those in portrait orientation as they look rather overwhelming. Incidentally I should have preferred one of the traditional ecclesiastical colours for the captions for Anglican churches; pinkish colours seem to have taken new meanings in recent years! Peter I. Vardy (talk) 10:04, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Certainly change the color to something that is more fitting or suggest one and I will be happy to change it. I think you may be right about the default size of the images and will at least be reducing it to 250px for the time being. Does anyone have any suggestions for an alternate default size? -- Dan9186(T • E • C) December 10, 2007 21:26 (UTC)
I suggest something nearer purple than pink (sorry I don't know how to do that). Also I think the 250px looks better than 300. Thanks for improving the infobox. Peter I. Vardy (talk) 12:00, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I have changed the color for the Anglican affiliations to CA95E4 which is a little more darker purple than the previous pinkish purple. Hopefully this is more towards what you were hoping for. If you still would like to see it changed to another color just let me know and I'll take care of it. -- Dan9186(T • E • C) December 13, 2007 18:44 (UTC)

Thanks, that's much better. Peter I. Vardy (talk) 18:57, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Request for Groundbreaking category

Could a date for Groundbreaking be added? (per other building templates). Thanks. Americasroof (talk) 06:02, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I see no reason not to so I added it. -- Dan9186(T • E • C) January 17, 2008 03:34 (UTC)
Many, many thanks. There's a lot of these buildings out there that took decades to build. I left a message on your talk page that I thought it was causing a malfunction but it is working now so disregard my comment. Thanks again big time! Americasroof (talk) 04:56, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Color for Judaism and Orthodox Judaism

For most of the history of this infobox, the "Religious affiliation" for Judaism has been blue. For some reason a couple of days ago ChesDovi changed it to mauve, claiming the color used was "too bright". I then changed the color to Cornflower Blue, which he objected to claiming it was "too dark", and insisting it needed to be a "pastel shade", and changed it back to mauve. I've now changed it to a "pastel shade" of blue; if you have any objections, please bring them to Talk first. Jayjg (talk) 15:15, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I know I was the one to put several of the colors up there and you have been quite helpful in changing a few to some other more preferable color. Just taking a look at some of the others do you think we might wish to reconsider changing them all to some form of a pastel color instead so that they are neither too bright nor too dark? Merely a thought. -- Dan9186(T • E • C) February 3, 2008 22:58 (UTC)

I don't want to be reminded of an Israeli Flag each time I see a synagogue infobox. I have worked hard adding the infobox to various synagogue pages I have created. The colour Jayjg originally chose and the latest one don't work for me. While it looks okay in Beit Knesset Kohanim HaDintreisa, it looks revolting on Old Synagogue (Przemyśl). I feel the last colour I picked is a suitable choice. As far as I believe, I never changed it to mauve:

Name Sample Hex triplet RGB HSV HTML Name
Mauve - This was never used #E0B0FF 224 176 255 276° 31% 100%
Lavender blue - 1st change #CCCCFF 204 204 255 240° 75% 88%
Lighter shade - 2nd change #ddddff {{{r}}} {{{g}}} {{{b}}} {{{h}}}° {{{s}}}% {{{v}}}%

Best, Chesdovi (talk) 01:04, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

It's rather disappointing to discover that the reasons you gave for not wanting the colors before were all false, and that you are making some sort of political point. The first color I used was DodgerBlue - named after the Los Angeles Dodgers, and the color of their logos. The second color I used was Cornflower blue, named after the Cornflower. The third color I used was LightSkyBlue. None of them have anything to do with the Israeli Flag. Does this infobox have anything to do with the Israeli Flag? How about this? Or this? They all use the current color, and there are dozens more like that, because the color is quite attractive and entirely appropriate for infoboxes. Please stop trying to change it to lavendar so that you can make some sort of obscure political point. Jayjg (talk) 13:02, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Mention Israel and suddenly I am making some kind of obscure political point! Agreed, I worded it wrong: I mused that the colour chosen resembles an Israeli flag by way of illustration: All the previous shades were all vibrant and bold enough to appear on an image of the Flag of Israel. If the most suitable colour indeed made me think of an Israeli flag, so be it! (The current colour does go with some pages, as I mentioned). If I was so worried about it looking like an Israeli flag, surely I should be insisting it be changed to fluorescent pink! Getting back to my view on the usage of colours, I don’t see why the #CCCCFF I chose is unsuitable. I see that Jayjg has also tried a few times to find a suitable colour, but would like to know why he is being so defiant on insisting on retaining the colours he feels blend perfectly and in his mind are “quite attractive”? I feel colour needs to be neutralised so it blends in with all the images featured in the various infoboxs, not just some of them. The shades chosen are too bold, effulgent and loud. It needs something softer, more watered down. At the moment I feel pages are being ruined by sporting such vivid shade. Besides, who said it can’t be lavender? Where’s the statute that blue must be used for Judaism? Blue and white may be the colour of Israel, but since when was blue the colour of Judaism? (Please don’t insinuate this has a sinister political motive – it hasn’t!) The original colour of the infobox, grey, worked well. If we are going to introduce different colours for each separate sect, outlandish shades must be discouraged. The #9BB4EB used in Reform Judaism seems okay. Maybe just have one colour for synagogues? Chesdovi (talk) 21:09, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
What I don't understand is why you reject any actual blue color, regardless of how bright, dark, or pastel it is. LightSkyBlue is hardly "outlandish" or "vivid"; as I have pointed out, it is used widely in other templates. Your other argument, that it looks "revolting" next to a particular image makes little sense; there are hundreds of synagogue images, and a color that, in your view, looks "suitable" next to one might indeed look "revolting" next to another - we can't make these decisions based on your personal view of one image. As for blue, for better or worse it actually is associated with Judaism, in the same way that green is associated with Islam. Borders the color of tekhelet are entirely appropriate for a Jewish article. Jayjg (talk) 02:25, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
It has not been so for all of the colors, but as I have added more I've tried to chose colors relevant to the religion/sect that I am adding. The first three color adjustments that I had added to the infobox were colors that Sapphire had chosen and so I can't very well say that they have a relation with their respective groups. I would say that if there are to be different coloring schemes at all then it should have some sort of tie in with what group it is representing. While I do agree with you Chesdovi that the colors shouldn't be bright and overbearing because it is the place of the infobox to enhance the article not draw away from it. I am also a little hesitant to all of this changing of color on the template itself and having it cascade through all its subsequent articles so often. If you don't agree with the color then please do suggest ideas and possibilities so that a consensus can be reached. If you don't agree with some shade of blue for Judaism, then what other color would have some sort of significance and work for the appearance of the articles? -- Dan9186(T • E • C) February 6, 2008 03:07 (UTC)
On my first post on this subject I wondered whether Jayjg was colour-blind, but retracted it thinking it was a little too harsh. But now I ask in all sincerity: Are you colour-blind? Lavender blue is so named for a reason. I have not rejected any "actual blue colour". Does Jayjg hold the veto on the colour? Please explain why your chose should be preferred over mine. I feel the shade I chose will work for all the images because it has a more neutral undertone. Thanks. Chesdovi (talk) 19:57, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Colour of Judaism

“As for blue, for better or worse it actually is associated with Judaism”. Why? Because Judaism is associated with Israel. Blue has been associated with Judaism ever since it was added to the colours of the flag of Israel. For decades the strips on the prayer shawl have been black, not blue. Tefillin, the most holy object available on a constant basis to Jews must be black, as must the ink used for the writing of a Torah scroll. Most orthodox Jews dress in black. Which colour would you associate with Christianity? Why is the Catholic colour peach? Chesdovi (talk) 21:05, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

You have it exactly backwards; tallesim were often colored with blue stripes, as a reminder of the tekheles. The flag of Israel copied that coloration; it is the Flag which has usurped the color of Judaism. In any event, I've substituted and even light shade of actual blue. Jayjg (talk) 02:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Your point on the color black having significance to Judaism is well made and certainly does prove significance but lacks a little in working for the appearance. I think what Jayjg is getting at by "actual blue colour" is the color you have picked out is as well lavender as it is blue. The colors may have been to bright, I'm not beyond understanding they may have been. Still, should it not be slightly more defined to blue or do you feel that is still too similar to Israel's flag? I only ask out of curiosity but why is it that you seem so opposed to a semblance to something Israeli? I would think that if you do agree with a shade of blue, which I'm still not certain if you do or don't, that your time would be better spent looking for a color we could all agree on. Is it not possible to suggest several colors and allowing for a possible decision and ruling out of what is not liked? Help resolve the disagreement instead of just banging our heads into the wall until someone gives.
As for the Catholic color that is merely the color that Sapphire chose for it when he suggested the change in the template. It has merely stayed as is because I haven't taken the time to pick something with more significance and no one else has bothered to come and discuss it on the template talk page for a possible change. -- Dan9186(T • E • C) February 7, 2008 03:05 (UTC)
It seems that Jayjg has a problem with the colour not resembling blue. He called lavender blue (a shade of blue) mavue as a reason to revert my change. Will Jayjg explain why the blue shade I chose is unacceptable. I had noted above two shades I prefer and that the Reform shade may also be an option. Here are some more that may fit:
v • d • e
Shades of blue
Carolina Blue (color) Periwinkle ? ? ? ?
           

And please, my objections have nothing to do with the Flag of Israel! Chesdovi (talk) 04:55, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Chesdovi, if you don't mind what were some of the articles that you were saying the other color looked bad against the image? I figure if those are the problem articles then lets go ahead and knock those out right away. -- Dan9186(T • E • C) February 7, 2008 07:49 (UTC)
Swapped around Reform with Orthodox, at first glance seems okay. Still feel not the right shade for Reform, but I'm mainly concerned with the Orthodox pages. Chesdovi (talk) 20:02, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Not trying to sound down cast or nothing but don't forget the documentation when you do those swaps Chesdovi.
Also I was just thinking about it and I have a feeling there is going to be a good bit of "testing" done with the colors in the very near future. To prevent numerous changes back to back of just the color I have created a sandbox for the template. Any changes you wish to make and or put up for discussion put do them there so that the appearance of articles are changing from day to day or even hour to hour. -- Dan9186(T • E • C) February 7, 2008 23:57 (UTC)
I've put in more appealing colors, and ensured that they are all fairly pastel. I'm not sure why you grouped Reconstructionist with Orthodox, though, it's much closer to Reform than anything else. Jayjg (talk) 02:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I am currently working on my brothers computer and am astounded to see that the original colours I had chosen look very different to how they appeared on my laptop. It indeed looks rather mauve, even violet. Even my selection of various shades looks very different to how they looked on my computer. How strange. The point of contention has now become apparent. Chesdovi (talk) 20:18, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Haha, an understandable problem that has happened to us all. I work on a lot of computers for a living and have run into that a handful of times. -- Dan9186(T • E • C) February 18, 2008 22:50 (UTC)

[edit] Functional status vs. Ecclesiastical status

Chesdovi, I like the new variable and distinction, but all the old templates were using "Ecclesiastical status" to describe "Functional Status" (at least for synagogues). Is there a way of updating them all? Jayjg (talk) 02:25, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I had wondered about such changes, did you put into any consideration for the articles that were broken or any effort to change all of them? Any time you make a change that breaks something I will gladly help update all of them if thats what it comes down to. Just make up a list of what hasn't been fixed so that fixed ones can be crossed off. I've already done it once when I added the image_size parameter, going through them again wouldn't be that big of a deal. -- Dan9186(T • E • C) February 6, 2008 03:18 (UTC)
The only way to update them all is to go through them one by one as was done with the image size. After my alteration I proceeded to fix 18 synagogue pages. I would also like to thank Dan9186 for his constructive changes to the infobox, especially the facility of removing the specifications section, etc. Chesdovi (talk) 20:50, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Come the weekend I will see what I can get done in the way of maxing the changes. If you don't mind though next give some sort of heads up about a change and I'll be glad to start repairing sooner. I don't always have the pleasure of reading my watchlist every day so I sometimes miss changes. -- Dan9186(T • E • C) February 7, 2008 03:10 (UTC)

[edit] Colour of Islam

I propose that Islamic Green (Hex: #009900) be used for Islam and Sunni, while Emerald Green (Hex: #50C878) be used for Shia. Chesdovi (talk) 23:48, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

You're on the same page as I am, I came across that yesterday and was going to run it by you guys to see what you thought. Sounds good to me though. -- Dan9186(T • E • C) February 11, 2008 14:52 (UTC)
Sounds fine to me too. Jayjg (talk) 02:57, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Parish priest

Could there be a slot explaining who the parish priest of the church-(if it is a church)-is?
Adabow (talk) 04:36, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure but wouldn't that be information that could fit under the leadership parameter? -- Dan9186(T • E • C) February 11, 2008 17:04 (UTC)

OK, didn't see that part; must be blind.
Thanks,Adabow (talk) 03:16, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Not a problem glad to help. -- Dan9186(T • E • C) February 13, 2008 07:09 (UTC)

[edit] Adding commons link to infobox?

I came across a version of the religious building infobox in Polish wikipedia [1] and am wondering what type of reception it would receive were the concept of the commons link placed somewhere in the box added to the English version? Chesdovi (talk) 19:54, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure how beneficial that would be, but then again I'm not sure I understand exactly what you're suggesting. Are you suggesting the idea of the commons link to just link to media about the subject on the commons? As for a new section though generally I'm all for it provided that it has some relevant use and can be accomplished without a lot of continuous maintinance. -- Dan9186(T • E • C) February 21, 2008 06:41 (UTC)

[edit] Heritage / US NHRP / UK Listing

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 The examples and perspective in this article or section may not represent a worldwide view of the subject.
Please improve this article or discuss the issue on the talk page.

What does "attained Heritage status" mean? Is that an international term, or specific to some unspecified country? If it's appropriate that this template includes US NHRP info, it should also include the UK Listed building grade if any, and equivalents for all other countries which have similar listings. PamD (talk) 08:11, 10 March 2008 (UTC)