Talk:Himura Kenshin

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Good article Himura Kenshin has been listed as one of the good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
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[edit] GA pass

This article now meets the criteria. It had several grammar problems, which I fixed. I also left a few hidden comments on minor issues. I would suggest next time if you want a quicker review have someone do a quick grammar check before nominating. Great work on citations and breadth. Very good article. Wrad (talk) 21:37, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Wrad. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 22:30, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Expand out-of-universe and reduce detailed in-universe

My doubt of this article becoming FA is the balance between in and out of universe info. I could find critics of the English voice actors of Kenshin and add them to reception. Some sentences such as " However, he eventually begins relying on a few friends, such as Sagara Sanosuke, his most reliable friend,[24] and even a child named Myōjin Yahiko, whom he sometimes allows to fight alongside him" could be more redundant as "However, he eventually begins relying on his friends, allowing to fight alongside him." I think that the introduction of sakabato should be moved to the lead since its importance and to avoid links to Rurouni Kenshin. The user who made the peer review thought of it as a good idea here Thoughts?--Tintor2 (talk) 15:56, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm...why didn't he post to the peer review page. It would be easier for all of us to see that way. But agreed we do need to work on the prose quite a bit. Collectonian (talk) 17:37, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
No idea, do you think it may be good idea to make the copy-edit request for the article once we finish the condense and expand?--Tintor2 (talk) 17:45, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes, definitely. It will probably be easier to look for one from the FA resources page rather than the League of Copyeditors, as the LoCE has been rather inactive of late. Collectonian (talk) 21:10, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
FA resources page? I had no idea that existed.--Tintor2 (talk) 21:46, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
WP:1FAPQ#Project resources, here ya go :) Collectonian (talk) 21:55, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Could you make the request? I cant find anyelse than those interviews I added to the talk page.--Tintor2 (talk) 22:18, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Sure, just let me know when you think its ready for it. Collectonian (talk) 03:13, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Probably not much, the interview in AnimeOnDVD.com says more or less the origin of "oro?" so I guess that information should be moved to conception. Thoughts?--Tintor2 (talk) 11:39, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
So?--Tintor2 (talk) 16:58, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Added. Collectonian (talk) 17:21, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Now I guess the reception needs a bit of expansion, (the conception now is the longest part of the article now). I will see if I can find something.--Tintor2 (talk) 17:30, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Reception can be, if info is available. I don't think its a bad thing for conception to be long, since the author gives lots of info about it :) Collectonian (talk) 17:34, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
I added a bit more, I guess it could be moment for WP:1FAPQ#Project resources, however is that made^_^.--Tintor2 (talk) 17:55, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
I've posted a request to one of the copy editors. Collectonian (talk) 18:16, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
User:MBisanz is going to give it a going over :) Collectonian (talk) 18:54, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Cool.--Tintor2 (talk) 19:04, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] More reception

I found these two interviews that look pretty nice that talks about Kenshin's voice actor.[1] [2]. I just cant understand too much about it (Im not a native English speaker). Could anybody add it?--Tintor2 (talk) 21:23, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Finally got around to writing up something and adding it. Hope that helps and works okay? Collectonian (talk) 03:12, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
That looks nice.--Tintor2 (talk) 11:26, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cd drama

Could it be added to the appearances in other media, info about the cd drama or some novels? Tell me and I ll add it.Tintor2 (talk) 19:47, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Wait a second, those novels and cd drama only repeat the same events of the manga and the anime--Tintor2 (talk) 20:04, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
You know, when you start talking to yourself, its worrying ;) That said, unless the drama CDs and novels had some new information or change something, beyond mentioning he's appearance there I don't think there is much else to say. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 20:12, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Samurai or not?

I understand most people call any Japanese warrior with a katana a "samurai", but that's as wrong as calling every American in a ten gallon hat who carries a six shooter a "cowboy". Samurai were a military aristocracy, of which Kenshin was never a part of. Before the events of the series, he was simply an assassin. During the series, he was "rurouni"... something made up by Watsuki which doesn't mean the same as ronin.

For more information on this misconception (perpetuated by ADV), see DVD Vision Japan and Anime Prime.--Nohansen (talk) 00:08, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

What does one actually have to do to be classified as a samurai? Is Saitō one because he worked for the government? I know Kenshin has mostly the characteristics of one, but I kind of see your point that he only served as an assassin, not as a guardsman or army soldier. Though why is Samurai Jack categorized as such? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 00:42, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
According to the biography of the historical Saitō Hajime, he was born to a gokenin, which would account for his social status. "Jack" was the son of a shogun, which I guess grants him the title (that, and the fact that Tartakovsky says Jack is a samurai). Kenshin was a peasant trained by Seijūrō, that alone doesn't make him a samurai. See Animefringe.--Nohansen (talk) 01:08, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I was referring to the fictional Saitō Hajime. Because he is part of the Shinsengumi, does that mean he is a samurai? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 01:32, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
It's the same guy. It's safe to say their backgrounds are the same, too.--Nohansen (talk) 04:19, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Okay...not to seem simple, but the OVAs were retitled Samurai X, and subtitled Wandering Samurai in some of the English releases. That would seem to indicate that as far as the English licensors are concerned, Kenshin is a samurai. He is also repeatedly grouped in discussions about the declining future of the samurai in the series, also indicating that other characters considered him to be among those ranks. If a reliable source is needed, however, Anime Explosion! discussed Kenshin being a ronin and specifically refers to him as a samurai several times. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 00:56, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
That's what I'm talking about ("most people call any Japanese warrior with a katana a samurai), and most of the time they're wrong. Unless there's a specific moment in the manga where Kenshin is addressed as a "samurai", and there's doubt and disagreement over Kenshin's status as one, I think it's best not to call him so. Don't you?--Nohansen (talk) 01:08, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I think if reliable sources are saying he is, unless other sources exist saying he definitely is not, then by the guidelines, we go with what the sources say. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 01:27, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Aren't the three links I provided enough?--Nohansen (talk) 04:19, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Tintor2 told me that in volume 25 Yahiko addresses him as such. Sound convincing? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 01:32, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
It seems what Yahiko said is Kenshin was a samurai "in spirit"; in others words, not really a samurai.--Nohansen (talk) 15:21, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
And what about Collectonian's comment below? Seems Kenshin is known as a samurai to other characters as well. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 16:37, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Actually, I would like to hear from Tintor2 to have the context of the scene he mentioned, but... if the characters themselves (or make that, "Viz's translators") can't agree whether Kenshin is a samurai or not, and there are internet critics (myself included) who say the title of "Samurai X" is inaccurate, wouldn't saying he is a samurai be tantamount to WP:OR? Isn't it better to err on the side of caution?--Nohansen (talk) 17:58, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I gave the context of the scene he mentioned in the list below. The other characters call him a samurai. Deciding he isn't and saying we won't even mention it is WP:OR and WP:NPOV. We should stick to what they say he is. If we want to mention that some feel that he isn't, that is fine, but over all, as fa as the English translation is concerned, he is. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 18:18, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I would like to know more; saying Yahiko says on page 164 "Kenshin was a samurai" doesn't tell me anything, to be honest. And you say Viz's English translation says he is a samurai, but what if the original Japanese script never says so? That's something to consider. After all, Kenshin's JA article doesn't say he's a "samurai", only a "swordsman" and an "assassin".--Nohansen (talk) 18:35, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Okay...longer summary (though if you have not read the series, how can you speak to whether Kenshin is a samurai or not?). Kujiranami Hyokgo has been rampaging through the town wanting to kill Kenshin, but Kenshin was in the Fallen Village despondent over Kaoro's death. Yahiko, the only one of the "Kenshin group" around, fights Hyokgo. Tsubame, fearing he will die, goes to the Fallen Village to find Kenshin and beg him to save Yahiko. Initially, the other men there stop her from entering until she starts calling for Kenshin, and that's when the man says "Oh, another visitor for that samurai." Tsubame begs Kenshin to help Yahiko but Kenshin doesn't seem to respond and the others make her leave. Kenshin gets up a short-while later, having heard her words and finding himself again. After seeing he is gone, the man asks "how did that samurai manage to get up?" Moving on a bit, Yahiko is still fighting Hyokgo and near the end. Hyokgo picks him up by the head and seems to be about to kill him when Kenshin arrives and hits him with the nine-headed dragon and frees Yahiko. He then cuts of Hyokgo's gun arm for the second time. Hyokgo demands that Kenshin kill him this time, or promises to just keep coming. Yahiko talks to him, insuring his own arm and saying he'll be the one to fight him. While talkign to Hyokgo, he reminds him that "Kenshin was a samurai" and that Hyokgo is a samurai and that there "samurai has no need to hold grudges against another samurai." His speech eventually calms Hyokgo and he agrees that samurai should not hold grudges and he leaves, thanking Kenshin for showing him kindness yet again. The conversation is pretty clear, as are Yahiko's words.-- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 18:46, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Note: I have read the series, but I don't think I reached volume 25. Also, I don't own the manga; so, even if I read volume 25, I can't corroborate what happened. I'm trusting you who have (and own) the books to provide the necessary details. That said, anyone have the Japanese volumes to see if the word "samurai" is used in the scene Collectonian's just described? That'd be really helpful.--Nohansen (talk) 19:01, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
In volume 25, on page 98 when Tsubame goes to the Fallen Village to find Kenshin, one of the men says "Another visitor for that samurai." He also is called a samurai by the same man on page 131 after Kenshin leaves: "how did that samurai manage to get up." Twice more on 139. On 164 is where Yahiko specifically states "Kenshin was a samurai" and that a "samurai has no need to hold grudges against another samurai" while talking to Kujiranami Hyokgo (the big dude with the gun arm). That's in just one volume. I think that's enough for me. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 01:58, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

But not enough for me. I think the character's background coupled with the three links I provided (where it is pointed out Kenshin is not a samurai) cast enough doubt on the character's status. But that's just me.--Nohansen (talk) 04:19, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Let's put it this way Nohansen: who hired Kenshin to be a hitokiri? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 04:25, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
"Katsura Kogoro, a leader of the Chōshū clan", right? But just because Four Hitokiri of the Bakumatsu were samurai, doesn't mean this hitokiri was one, too. All we know is: peasant, slave, assassin.--Nohansen (talk) 04:58, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Only one of those is really an RS. One is border-line and the other is definitely not. The English version says he's a samurai, repeatedly, so he is. Now if reviewers want to say that they don't think he is, while others say he is, hey, new section :P -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 04:27, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
English translators can be wrong or take serious liberties, we can at least agree on that. But if you want to keep calling Kenshin a samurai, that's fine. Given what I know, it's wrong; but it's fine... We might need a Japanese history expert to clear this mess.--Nohansen (talk) 04:58, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Maybe someone from WP:JPN can help? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 05:12, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Again unless some source specifically notes that Kenshin himself is not a samurai, saying that we "know its wrong" is no better than WP:OR. As it is, conflicting sources say different things. As such, we could put a section on whether he is or is not, giving equal weight to both sides and providing relevant, reliable sources. Otherwise, I think we need to stick with what the source says. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 05:21, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm concordant with such a section. What would it be titled? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 05:28, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
The more I think about it, the more I think the article as a whole should work from the idea that, as far as the series is concerned, Kenshin is a samurai. In the reception section, we can note that some critics feel that Kenshin is improperly termed a samurai. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 18:47, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cross Shaped Scar's Origin

In the article it is depicted as "Tomoe's knife had flown into the air and coincidentally slashed Kenshin's cheek, creating the famous X-shaped scar across his left cheek". I watched the OVA. One of the lines of cross shape has been made early in the OVA. The other one was made by tomoe while she was dying on Kenshin's arms with her knife. The knife didn't "coincidentally slashed Kenshin's cheek". --Fotte (talk) 15:10, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

The OVA depicts the events differently from the manga. As the manga is the primary work, the description uses its depiction. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 15:22, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I know we're supposed to write fiction as if it were the present so was this ok? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 21:50, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
That's fine :) -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 21:54, 3 June 2008 (UTC)