Talk:Hatikvah

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I would really like to see a note in the article regarding the fact that the current anthem is only the first(?) two verses from the original composition, and and maybe to see the entire original text - at least in hebrew.

I'll look around and see if I can dig up the original full text.

Can someone with more knowledge of markup languages move the full text of Imber poem from the external link to the main article?

In Opera 7.5 or latest Mozilla, you can copy & paste it and the browser transforms automatically the Unicode characters in mark-up code. I would do it, but I don't know exactly what would be the order of the verses. (since it's in two columns and right-to-left :-) Bogdan | Talk 19:58, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Mmm, yeah. And can we please have it in English?
(Oh, and what're the last two verses?) --Penta 20:05, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)


Horrible,.. tried to copy and paste, but it gets all messed up. Here's the link: http://www.cramim.rishon.k12.il/rishon/hatikvold.html

At least I can give you the English version without messing up the lay-out:


O while within a Jewish breast,

Beats true a Jewish heart.

And Jewish glances turning East,

To Zion fondly dart,


Chorus

O then our Hope - it is not dead

Our ancient Hope and true

Again the sacred soil to tread

Where David's banner flew.



O While the tears flow down apace,

And fall like bounteous rain,

And to the fathers' resting place,

Sweeps on the mournful train,

Chorus...



And while upon our eager eye,

Flashes the City's wall.

And for the wasted Sanctuary,

The teardrops trembling fall,

Chorus...



O while the Jordan's pent-up tide,

Leaps downward rapidly,

And while its gleaming waters glide,

Through Galilee's blue sea,

Chorus...



And while upon the Highway there

Lowers the stricken Gate,

And from the ruins of Zion's prayer

Upriseth passionate,

Chorus...



O while the pure floods of her eyes

Flow for her People's plight,

And Zion's Daughter doth arise

And weep the long, long night,

Chorus...



O while through vein in ceaseless stream

The bright blood pulses yet,

And on our fathers' tomb doth gleam

The dew when sun is set,

Chorus...



Hear Brothers, mine, where e're ye be,

This Truth by Prophet won:

"Tis then our Hope shall cease to be

With Israel's last son!"

Contents

[edit] mistake!!!

quotation: http://www.radio.cz/en/html/raab.html Israeli "Hatikva" ("The Hope") with its evocative words about "being a free people in the land of Zion and Jerusalem," and beautiful music. Only in an eighth grade music class did I learn that the melody was adapted from Bedrich Smetana's "The Moldau," part of his "Ma Vlast". He was describing not the Jordan river I knew so well but the Vlatava/Moldau river of his land. Its flowing through Bohemia, over rapids, through Prague, and into the Elbe, were far from my homeland, but the sense of beauty he created was familiar.

And the tune didn't come from Moldavia (as someone who does not know the river Modlau can think) or from Romania, larger country next to Moldavia (as usually written all around the internet). The tune came from czech folk song, smetana probably din't know any folk song from Moldavia but he 100% did know the well known (in Czech republic) folk song about cat and dog.

This mistake is now wide spread beacuse of wikipedia, can you tell me how to fix that?

I am shure beacause I know the history of B. Smetana and his work, I live in Czech rep. and I learned about it in school, and the folk song I had known before I was four years old.

The situation is very unclear. The music was composed by either Nissan Belzer, Imber himself http://daffodils.scream.org/9610.html or most likely, Samuel Cohen coming from Moldavia. Cohen is said to have adapted a Moldavian-Rumanian folksong called "Carul cu Boi", sometimes referred to as "Carel Kuboy" ("Cart and Oxen"). However, there might be different sources of inspiration. The tune is quite universal, reported in Spanish song "Virgen de la Cueva" ("Virgin of the Cave"), Swedish folk song "Ack, Värmeland" and numerous others. It could be, that Cohen used the theme from Smetana's "The Moldau", because that is in turn said to be based on "Ack, Värmeland". On the contrary, the Czech folk song "Kočka leze dírou" is said to have been created after Smetana published his work and people remembered the melody. According to my research, the anthem is based either on the Moldavian song, or Bedřich Smetana's "The Moldau". It is not likely, that "The Moldau" is based on Moldavian "Carul cu Boi". Obviously, the article was not exact. pt 15:34, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I've incorporated this (pt's) information and some more details I've found into the article. I've added a reference to Choral Journal where I found a lot of this information. --Robojames 18:56, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hello, How can Carul cu Boi have influenced Cohen in the 1880s when the lyrics to the song as posted on the national anthems website, in Romanian, clearly mention the fact that the cart and oxen was preferable to the new motor cars? Could not have been written that early if talking about cars. Could Cohen have heard it earlier as an instrumental? What title might it have had then? Romanian folk experts say the tune has nothing to do with folk music styles of the region at all. The whole thing is questionable.

research@musicarc.org

Carul cu Boi may exist in several versions, some more modern, some more traditional. (Though, it's only a guess.) --Yms 10:02, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, it may, but until somebody finds an older version the Romanian theory cannot be very convincing. By the way, where did you find the file posted on your LJ page? Googling for 'căi ferate şi vapori' brings 0 hits.
I took it from the Romanian article, it's from this page in Hebrew, which seems to be a copy of this.
Notice that the melody of this Romanian song is exactly the same as Hatikvah (and much closer than the Smetana's version). If it's not the source of Hatikva's melody, it may only mean that someone took Hatikvah's melody and adapted it for this song. --Yms 11:26, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Somebody could have taken Smetana's melody and made a Romanian song. Amazingly, my ears find Carul cu boi differing much greater from haTikvah than Smetana's work. I am not a musician though
It explains why your ears find it more different ;) Besides that, there is no source that says that people in Rishon could hear the Smetana's symphonic work which was written only a few years before. And there IS a source which says about some Romanian song known to Shmuel Cohen from his childhood. Yms 19:51, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
My secondary school music teacher (in Flanders) had us listen to the old Flemish song "Ik zag Cecilia komen" ([1]) and then to Die Moldau/Vltava. The similarities between one of the movements in Smetana's work and the Flemish song are so obvious that influence must be suspected (although I do not know whether the Flemish or the Italian vesrion is the oldest). He then had us listen to some unknown music, which he then revealed as the National anthem of Israel - again the similarities were obvious but to the trained musical ears among us the third one was obviously based on Smetana's version, rather than on Cecilia. Note that although most Flemish (and many Dutch) school children used to know this, the resemblance has also been noted outside the Dutch speaking area: [2] (see the part entitled "Origine du thème de Vltava" - which also mentions the possible Swedish connection for Smetana.--Pan Gerwazy 22:41, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hatikva is not Israel's nation anthem!

Last year I learnt in school (and I live in Israel, so it must account for something) that The Tikva is not the official anthem of the State of Israel. Israel has no official nation anthem, but it is customary to sing The Tikva on most national occassions. There is also a reason to why The Tikva is not official, but I can't remember it. Could someone please confirm or deny this? I will ask my teachers again tomorrow, and I'll try to get some more information on it.

Nevermind. Guess it was made official last year. Sorry.

I dunno about that but I thought that the composer was Jewish-Romanian and the song is inspired from a Romanian folk song not Moldovan since Moldova is now part of Romania.

Why is "tzion" translated as "Palestine" and not "Zion", which is what "tzion" means?

---Tzion is Zion, but as a geographic label it is interchangeable (historically) with Palestine, which used to be a neutral geographic designation of the British Mandatory Territory that includes Israel, Jordan, the West Bank, and Gaza.


I'd like to know what was the fate of Kurt Weill's orchestation: is it the one one currently in use or not?

The song is actually modal, not in a minor key, though for the most part it's minorDrsmoo 16:58, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The other songs you are talking about?

I'm pretty interested in this subject, but could you guys please give us a link to the audio files of the songs that resemble hatikva, because they are very scarce on the web.And can someone tell me if the second part of the anthem (od lo avda tikvatenu} is present in ma vlast? I need some excuse to play this song in public places since I live in an arab country, because someone caught me once and identified the song, I want some kind of excuse to get out of trouble, LOL! Sofian Rahmani


I added that 2Pac sampled hatikva and pointed to a youtube video of said song. I hope this is enough to keep it from getting deleted! 71.236.199.38 10:08, 28 March 2007 (UTC)ricardobaltazar

[edit] Transcription

"Tzi(y)on" appears twice in the transcription, and I think it should be spelled tziyon both times.

Not sure about capitalisation - Hebrew doesn't have them after all. Also spelling YERUSHALAYIM instead of Y'rushalayim seems to be closer to modern Israeli pronunciation.

Kol 'od balevav P'nimah -

Nefesh Yehudi homiyah

Ulfa'atey mizrakh kadimah

'Ayin le'tzion tzofiyah -- =>>> le'tziyon


'Od lo avdah tikvatenu

(*)Hatikvah bat shnot alpayim:

Lihyot 'am khofshi be'artzenu -

Eretz Tziyon y'rushalayim.(*)

Wathiik 10:41, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

I think someone should add sources to the historical section of this article. It can hardly be considered a truly informative article until all necessary sources have been quoted. Thank you.

[edit] Differences between Transliterations and Translations

The modern version and the corresponding portions of the original, nine-stanza version are shown with significantly different transliterations and translations, even where the Hebrew is the same. For example (and you may ignore the fact that one version of the Hebrew is written with vowels, the other without):

Version Hebrew Transliteration Translation
Modern עוד לא אבדה תקותנו Od lo avdah tikvateinu Our hope is not yet lost
Original עוֹד לֹא אָבְדָה תִקְוָתֵנוּ Od lo avedah tikvatenu Our hope will not be lost

These differences will give readers (those who do not or cannot compare the Hebrew) the impression that changes were intentionally made to the song, where it's not clear any changes were made.

Are these differences based on some official, common, or standardized translations and transliterations, or are they merely artifacts from being copied from different sources? Can anyone clarify this in the article by adding an explanation, replacing one or both with more closely corresponding versions, and/or including references to the sources of these translations and transliterations?

GCL 20:13, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Controversy section

Why does the fact that "Rav Kook didn't care for Hatikvah" constitute a "controversy"? Zargulon 09:12, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea, but you are welcome to remove it. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 13:52, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Translation

Since when does "tehor" mean "fast-paced"?? Shouldn't that part of the english translation be changed to "pure"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.91.135.162 (talk) 04:42, 8 February 2008 (UTC)