Talk:Ganja, Azerbaijan

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See also Talk:Ganja (disambiguation).

Contents 1 City in Azerbaijan 2 Ganja or Ganca 3 Emblem of Ganca 4 Armenians of Gandzak/Ganja 5 Info 6 Sources needed 7 Ganja Etymology 8 Vandalism 9 Persian name 10 Armenian Community 11 Dubious 12 language section 13 move from Ganja → Ganja (city) 14 Requested move 14.1 Survey 14.2 Discussion 15 Dubious claim

[edit] City in Azerbaijan

Ganje was a city in the persian empire until its capture by the russians in the 19th century. For Azeri etnicity, please refer to the appropriate article. It is important to note that the present state of azerbaijan is a very new phenomenon and no such state has ever existed before 20th century.

Please get your facts straight. Ganja wasn't a part of the Persian Empire until its "capture by the Russians". Immediately before the war between Russia and Iran for the division of Azerbaijan and the Caucasus, Ganja was the capital of an independent Ganja Khanate, which was a feudal Azerbaijani state. The first paragraph is very misleading, because it tells about supposed Persian origins of the city (without any reliable proof) even before stating the fact that it is a city in Azerbaijan. Moreover, it is your personal opinion about a "new phenomenon" - the fact is that the Republic of Azerbaijan exists and that Ganja is its part and that Ganja is a very important city for Azerbaijani in terms of the Azeri culture and statehood.

Please, note that Ganja is a historical Azerbaijani city. Its inhabitants all the time have been Azerbaijanis or Albanians, ancestors of Azerbaijanis. Please, don't try to credit Ganja to persians. I have no relations to persiona. Azerbaijanis and persians are different civilizations, different cultures, different ethnicities, different language and etc. No common feature other than being neighbors. --68.49.90.60 18:19, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

68, your edits have consistently shown a point of view. Without having reliable sources to back up your claims, such assertions cannot be made in an encyclopedic fashion. --Kuzaar^-T-C- 13:07, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

(One more note)- note that the current fashion in which it is on the page is appropriate, being that it only claims to be a city in Azerbaijan, which is factually true. --Kuzaar^-T-C- 13:09, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ganja or Ganca

Ganja appears closer to the Persian spelling and Ganca seems to be closer to the Azeri spelling. The United Nations Group of Expects on Geographical Names issued a working paper (WP 82) in 2000 entitled Classification of the Populated Localities On 1/600,000 Scale Map of the Azerbaijan Republic but they acknowledged that the conversion of the Azeri from cyrillic to roman had not been fully accomodated. The UN report still used Ganja. Fallingrain.com uses Ganca. signed: Bejnar 05:42, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

The Azeri spelling is indeed Ganca, but based on the research I did for the subdivisions article, if I recall correctly the official romanization is "Ganja". See [1]. --Golbez 07:00, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

When I was in Ganja for a few weeks 3 years ago, it seemed that the Azeris spelled it "Gəncə" in Azeri, but "Ganja" in English. So I would say this is at the right place. --jacobolus (t) 21:11, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Emblem of Ganca

The coat of arms used in the article is not being used since 1918 and I think it would be wiser to move it to the history section rather than display it as the emblem of the city. I have an image of the modern emblem adopted on January 21, 2003. I am still trying to figure out how to place it and what to do with licence. Does it count as a fair use if it is being used anywhere in the city?? Gancali 9:41, 4 November 2006(UTC)

[edit] Armenians of Gandzak/Ganja

The city was founded by Armenians in the early Middle Ages, has Armenian name, and from early times was home to a large Armenian community that was exiled in 1989. Gandzak gave Armenians many important figures of science, literature, arts and religion- see list. Zurbagan 07:19, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Not true -- there is zero evidence about Armenians founding a city in Caucasian Albania. Neither is "Gandzak" an Armenian name - it is Persian. All your POV is easily disproven by Enc. Iranica article [2]: "History. The post-Mongol historian Háamd-Alla@h Mostawf^ says that the Arab town of Ganja was founded in 39/659-60 (i.e., at the time of the first Arab incursions into eastern Transcaucasia) but gives no details (Nozhat al-qolu@b, p. 91, tr. p. 93). A passage of the anonymous Ta÷r^kò Ba@b al-abwa@b (extant in the Ottoman historian Monajjem-ba@æ^'s Ja@me¿ al-dowal) states that Ganja was founded in 245/859-60 by Moháammad b. Kòa@led b. Yaz^d b. Mazyad, of the family of Yaz^d^ governors in ˆarva@n, who was governor of Azerbaijan, Arra@n, and Armenia for the caliph al-Motawakkel, and so-called because of a treasure unearthed there, obviously a piece of folk etymology (see below). Moháammad resided there in his castle (qasár), presumably until his death in 247/861, making it the capital of Arra@n (Minorsky, 1958, tr. pp. 25-26, comm. pp. 57-58; cf. idem, 1953, pp. 5-6). Moháammad b. Kòa@led's role as founder (or rather, as re-founder, see below) of Ganja is confirmed by the Armenian historian Movse@s Dasxuranc¿i, where he says that the son of Xazr (for Xald, as explained by Marquart, p. 462) Patgos built Ganjak in the canton of Aræakaæe@n, with the date given in one manuscript as Armenian era 295/846-47 (bk. 3, ch. 20, tr. Dowsett, p. 218). The Persian name Ganja/Ganza (<ganj "treasure, treasury"; see MacKenzie, p. 35) points, however, to there having existed a much older, pre-Islamic town there."

Also, both of these references are incorrect: "Kirakos Gandzaketsi - author of the History of Armenia" -- he NEVER had the word Armenia in his title. Likewise, "Mkhitar Gosh - author of Armenia's Code of Laws" -- he NEVER had the word Armenia in his title. Indeed, here's prof. Dowset's aricle name: С.J.F. Dowsett. The Albanian Chronicle of Mxit'ar Gos. BSOAS, XXI/3, 1958. Same was true of his "Code of Laws" - which was simply named as such. --AdilBaguirov 09:50, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, Zurbagan is making disruptive edits and edit warring without providing sufficient evidence against body of evidence presented above or discussing on the talk page. The user is now added to ArbCom case, so should present his evidence and statement there. Atabek 20:24, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Info on Armenians should be in a separate chapter about the city's Armenian population. Pulu-Pughi 04:33, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Info

I added some things back that were referenced, [3] Artaxiad 03:24, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

What you added doesn't make sense. If "it was an urban center of the province of Utik of the Kingdom of Greater Armenia until the kingdom's breakup in 387 A.D." how can you claim that it was founded by Armenians in 5th century A.D., when it was first mentioned? Parishan 04:56, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay, hopefully we'll get this fixed, thanks. Artaxiad 00:36, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources needed

The article needs sources which show that it was an important city of Caucasus Albania (the Iranica article mentions Aran, Iran, Atabegs, etc... but not C.A) and another source which mentions the Turkic/Kurdish origin theory of the etymology (Iranica says that Ganja is from the Persian language, says nothing of Turkic or Kurdish.).Azerbaijani 04:26, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Kurdish etymology based on word "genc" is impossible, as it's a Turkic word, that's why Kurdish cannot be put there, and is covered by the Persian (or actually, it should state Pahlavi, not Persian). What reference is needed for the word genc? I can scan an Azerbaijani-English dictionary's page, if needed, but is that really necessary? Meanwhile, if the city was founded in 5th century, then obviously it was in Caucasian Albania, which existed in its full form (Naxcivan+Arran+Shirvan+Mughan+Daghestan) until 705 AD, and after that, until 10th century, was re-established a few times in what is known as Arran region (i.e., only between Kura and Araxes rivers). Hence, no citation is needed for that, it's automatically covered. --AdilBaguirov 05:06, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

From the Ganca Media Center website:

Among literary scientists there are several theories about the meaning and the origin of the word “Ganja.” One group of researchers says the word comes from the Parfiyan word “gəncə” meaning “treasure.” Another group believes it comes from the word “gencə” meaning large or big, and others think it comes from the names of the ancient Turkish tribes the Huns and “Gəncək”.

Farrux Ahmadov, a young researcher was a post-graduate academic (kandidat kauk) in history. Although he passed away at a young age, he conducted large scale research about the history and ethnography of Ganja. In his book, “The historical memory of Ganja” (Baki, “Şirvannəşr”, 1998) he contributes significant information by proving the word Ganja’s Turkic origin: “… If the sources tell us, with confidence about the rule of the Turks in the regions around the Kur river, then obviously, this tribe leader- ‘Khan’ (‘xaqan’, ‘kaqan’) must have had a main village or a palace. And there is no fact to prove that Ganja was not the main village of that tribe. We believe that, in ancient times the city was not called ‘Gəncə’ but ‘Qança’ (or ‘Kançə’) (İbn Xordadbek ‘Kniqa putey i stran’ – kommentarii, issledovaniye, ukazateli i kartı Naili Velixanovoy, Baku, 1986, s. 78, 226). The first component ‘qan’, “kaan”, “xan”, in Turkic languages means a ruler, king or chief. ‘– ca (-cə, -ça, -çə)’, the second part of the word is widely used in the historical part of Azerbaijan and means place, location, motherland. We can take a broad view and consider that the words ‘Gəncə’, ‘Qanca’, ‘Kancə’ mean ‘Khan place’, ‘the location of the Khan’, ‘the motherland of the Khan’, ‘place where the ruler is’. It is interesting that until the beginning of the Twentieth Century the words "Qanja" and "Xan yurt" were still in use by the people in the mountainous regions South of Ganja.

This is all OR and none of it is academic. Further more, it says the theory is by a "young reseacher and post graduate academic"...Azerbaijani 14:03, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

What is OR? This is a major website source for the city of Ganja, and is properly references as one theory, so what's the problem? Secondly, what do you have against young POST GRADUATE academics (i.e., PhD degree holders -- which is higher qualification than majority of Wikipedia editors have). The reference is fine and should stay, as should other references. --AdilBaguirov 04:43, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Needs scholarly third party source. Havent seen one yet and I have done some searching. If you cant find one...than that probably means that the theory is not credible.Azerbaijani 22:27, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism by some drug-lovers was reverted, and restored the original wording from John F. Baddeley and Caucasian Albanian historian Moisey Kalankatuyski (Movses Dasxuranci) about Ganja. Additionally, Mxitar Gosh and Kirakos Gandzaketsi were Albanian, and their books were about Albania and written in Caucasian Albania (Arran). --adil 21:28, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Azerbaijani, you're replacing references to scholarly sources with pan-Armenian and pan-Persian POV. Sumgait.info is anti-Azerbaijani POV source, and despite your wording manipulations Utik was not permanently part of "Greater Armenian kingdom", because such existed only for brief period of few years in history. Atabek 23:37, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

This is ridiculous! These are the same users who have asked me in the past for third party scholarly sources yet refuse to do the same here! This is the source they are trying to use: http://www.ganca.az/history.html That is neither a neutral site, nor is it a scholarly site, and it says the creator of the theory is some (by the sites very own admission) was a young post graduate academic and also (again, by the sites own admission) the theory is based on pure speculation and point of view... This is ridiculous. I want a third party scholarly source for this theory.

And those edits that you are referring to were not added by me, they were added prior or after my edits, so if you have a problem with those, do not completely revert the article and instead talk to those users.Azerbaijani 01:32, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Interesting move by Adil. He replaces Persian and replaces it with Pahlavi, which isnt incorrect, however, neither was Persian, as Pahlavi was Middle Persian and was referred to as Parsik. The funniest part was when he put in place "middle Iranian" rather than putting in "middle Persian". I dont know what this user has against Persians, but he has expressed his feelings many times...I'll let others be the judge. Its also funny how he calls Encyclopaedia Iranica a "pan Persian" source...Lastly, he removes the dispute tag...Very interesting revert Atabek...Azerbaijani 01:48, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

user Azerbaijani, refrain from your insinuations. First off, I was not the one who placed Middle Iranian. Secondly, that's what it says on the actual Wikipedia page, so it is correct. Thirdly, Pahlavi was not the same as Persian, and hence it is more correct to say middle Iranian as Parthian language is shared by all Iranic people, not just Persians. Finally, "ganj" is from Pahlavi, hence it is 110% more correct than any other wording. How one would make wild claims such as yours, by trying to make it look anti-anyone, is beyond comprehension. Stop showing bad faith each and every time. --adil 17:28, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I wonder, Pejman47, what acedmic sources you are refering to in your claims--Dacy69 19:25, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

read IRANICA,--Pejman47 20:09, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

This is getting ridiculous. These are the same users that claim every single source that contradicts them "not scholarly or not neutral" and yet when it comes to their sources, they use whatever they want! There is no "Turkic theory" for the name Ganja, that is pure historical fiction. That is why you cannot find one scholarly source that also supports this theory! Iranica says the name is derived from Persian, you cannot argue with Iranica when you do not have a scholarly third party source.

Pahlavi is middle Persian, read Britannica. This is getting real tiring.

Here is the Wikipedia article on Pahlavi: [4]

Middle Persian or Pahlavi is the Iranian language spoken during Sassanian times.

Here is the Britannica article on Pahlavi: [5]

Middle Persian, the major form of which is called Pahlavi, was the official language of the Sasanians (AD 224–651). The most important of the Middle Persian inscriptions is that of Shapur I (d. AD 272), which has parallel versions in Parthian and Greek. Middle Persian was also the language of the Manichaean and Zoroastrian books written during the 3rd to the 10th century AD.

Here is what Iranica says about the name Ganja: [6]

The Persian name Ganja/Ganza (<ganj "treasure, treasury"; see MacKenzie, p. 35) points, however, to there having existed a much older, pre-Islamic town there.

Adil and Atabek, its really tiring having to deal with these POV edits and OR. Wikipedia has policies against these, and you two are trying to argue against Britannica and Iranica?

If you want, I can bring up literraly hundreds of Iranian sources for a lot of claims, would you take those out now that you have shown your double standard? This is ridiculousAzerbaijani 20:48, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

As per the failure of the users to bring up third party scholarly sources to back up their claims, as well as their removal of the dispute tag and of their manipulation of the term Pahlavi, backed up by all the comments above, I took the article back to the version by Pejman.

If you have a dispute with any of the content dealing with Armenia or Armenians, do not blindly revert the entire article but talk to the users involved with those edits. So far, I have put a dispute tag on the part of the article which you guys are contesting. Hopefully you and the users who put that information in can talk this out.Azerbaijani 02:19, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

user Azerbaijani, what is your problem man? I've told you already -- the Wikipedia's own page on Pahlavi language [7] says: "Pahlavi or Pahlevi denotes a particular and exclusively written form of various Middle Iranian languages." It is more correct to denote Pahlavi as Middle Iranian as it's shared by all Iranian people, not just Persians, and because primary Pahlavi speakers, Parthians, were different from Persians, who had their own language at the same time. So what is your complaint about? Meanwhile, nobody disputes the Iranica's take on Ganja, and of course, everyone (at least the Azerbaijani users) recognize that "ganj" is a Pahlavi word. As such, why don't you explain that to the Armenian users, so that they understand that a similar word in Armenian language, itself an Indo-European language, is from Pahlavi, and hence talking about Armenian origin of the word (and worse, the city) is groundless. --adil 07:03, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh wow. Adil, The article you are citing is about the WRITING SYSTEM OF PAHLAVI, NOT THE LANGUAGE. Your POV and OR is really really tiring. If you cannot find one third party scholarly source, than that means the theory is not credible and putting it in the article is undo weight.Azerbaijani 13:39, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

It's you who is tiring with never ending POV - for Middle Iranian Language, see http://www.iranologie.com/history/ilf.html] and Britannica [8] and UCLA [9] and [10] and [11] and [12] and [13] and [14]. Enough? --adil 09:00, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Adil, even your own sources call Pahlavi Middle Persian! You are confusing Middle Iranian, which includes all the middle Iranica languages that existed during the Sassanian and Parthian eras, just as Iranian languages today includes Kurdish, Persian, Pashto, etc...

A third part will be here to comment soon, and this will hopefully all be taken care.Azerbaijani 13:08, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ganja Etymology

I need to make some clarifications although since this seems to be an armenian/azerbaijani issue as well, I am not going to edit after arbcomm is over but I have made these comments assuming good faith from users to make the right edits. About the name, Ganja is Persian. Ganjak is the Middle Persian or Pahlavi version. Note the firt two links Adil brought: which are academic: [[15]]: The dominant language of this stage was initially Parthian (Pahlawanig)and later Middle Persian, commonly known as "Pahlavi". And also the Britannica link Adil mentioned: e Persian is known in three forms, not entirely homogeneous—inscriptional Middle Persian, Pahlavi (often more precisely called Book Pahlavi), and Manichaean Middle Persian. Middle Persian belongs to the period 300 BC to AD 950 and was, like Old Persian, the language of southwestern Iran.. [16]. The first article was written by someone I know through e-mail and he is a history student (Iranian history) in UCLA and he reads Pahlavi, Avesta, Parthian, Soghdian, Old Persian, Latin, Greek, English, German... Very bright fellow. There is of course a group of scripts collectively called Pahlavi scripts. Pahlavi originaly was a term that denoted Parthians in the ancient era and then in the Islamic era Pahla was the area (Azerbaijan,Esfahan, Ray, Hamadan..) but scholars and Zoroastrians and Persian literature have used Pahlavi for Middle Persian and Parthian (which is a very similar language) for Parthian. Over all, the words Parth,Pars,Pashtu, Pahlaw,Persian, Parthav (modern Bard'a) and the word Pahlavan all trace back to Old Persian/Avesta Persu (Morgenstein a scholar in Pashto has a good article on this). But to make a long story short, Iranica article should be quoted directly and the Iranica article by Boseworth references Mackenzie's Pahlavi dictionary. Mackenzie's Pahlavi dictionary is a dictionary of Middle Persian. Thus Ganjak is Pahlavi(Middle Persian) but Ganja/Ganjah is modern Persian. Lots of words in Pahlavi have lost their last k to h in modern Persian. One example is Bandak in Pahlavi which is now Banda (which I believe has entered Turkish as bende). Now I am going to make a comment on Turkish/Armenian origin.

Besides the fact that I have not seen it so far in any western academicaly professional (written by a major Professor of the area) manuscripts, the theory of Turkic etymology for such a word is faulty since etymology has to be sought for Ganjak and not Ganja, since Ganjak is the more archaic form. The Ganja media center site contains OR research not backed by third party sources and so it should be removed by any decent users. For example, the sentences are poorly formed even and not on par with an academic site: A young scientist, Farrux Ahmadov who also had a PHD in History begun filling those “white sponts” in Ganja’s history with his researches.[[17]]. What is white sponts? Also he says: We believe that, in ancient times the city was not called ‘Gəncə’ but ‘Qança’! And then sites İbn Xordadbek where-as the name is Ibn Xordadbeh and not Xordadbek. Note it does not connect to the word young anyways. Also note this sentence from the same link: According to the information given by Herodot, “Kirus crosses the Araz River and gets closer to Kur River. Then he moves toward a narrow valley (remember the Dar valley village in the Southern Ganja region- F.A.). The queen Tomris drags the multinumbered troops of Kiri into a trap and destroys them, and Kiri gets killed”.. Actually Herodotus mentions araxes which in his book denotes the Oxus. [18][19][20].I And futhermore Xenophon mentions natural death for Cyrus and I believe so does Ctesias, so over all there is some legendary material here which should not be used for etymology. The science of etymology is not easy but it has some general rules.

I am hoping based on the good faith of users, they will make the necessary corrections or or provide a neutral third party western source for any claim. As per the term being Armenian, Armenian language specially classical has a lot of Pahlavi/Parthian words words and one of them is Ganjak, but as described above, Ganjah is a Persian word where-as Ganjak is a Pahlavi (Middle Persian) word which also Armenian borrowed from Persian. Overall many etymologies in the region have Persian names: Azerbaijan, Darband, Ganja..Also one should add Shaddadid dynasty to the list as well since it was their capital as well. I'll make the edits with this matter of etymology after arbcomm, unless well intentioned users do so before. --alidoostzadeh 23:36, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, Shaddadi's should be added. Meanwhile, the Ganja Media Site obviously doesn't have an english translation done on professional or native level, and in fact, didn't even use a spell check, but this shouldn't be used against it too harsh, as obviously in native Azerbaijani it would be without mistakes [21]. Very often US websites, when written in Azerbaijani or Russian, for example, contain horrible and laughable mistakes too. Since this is a major website about Ganja and contains valuable information, such as on the celebration of the claimed 2500 year anniversary, recent pictures, etc., and contains reference to F.Ahmadov's book, it can't be considered OR, as it's a verifiable source. Meanwhile, the Turkic theory is identified as such properly in the article and takes secondary position to the main theory. This city is in Azerbaijan and obviously an Azerbaijani source deserves to be in the article, readers need to know what the local population believes the etymology is. --adil 02:30, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah I did not mean to be harsh on the site, but its content is not reliable with regards to history. The Turkic theory should have academic backing by any Wiki standard. I mean we all should adhere to some standards with regards to matters that are debatable. For example if Minorsky says something and some Iranian scholar or website says another, one goes with Minorsky. Note even Kasravi who is mentions by tons of western scholars was omitted by me from Safavids since some users said he could be bias and I said fine even though I can make good execuses to quote him since Minorsky does. There are lots of good Turkologists out there like Doefer, Clauson and etc. Etymology is not the job of random people or even random scholars, but mainly the job of very trained linguists who know many languages like my friend. Note I have seen in a book published by a very nationalist Iranian azeri that Anglo-Saxon has an Iranian root. The guy has a PhD but sometimes nationalism makes a person illogical and he haphazhardly connection Saxon with an Iranian word. But anyways please note the wiki standard with regards to this matter: This means that we present verifiable accounts of views and arguments of reliable scholars.. in Wiki OR. My standard for reliable on history is a full professor in a major western university whose publications are cited. Turkic theory simply does not hold since the region was not Turkified in language at that time, definitely not during the time of Shaddadids when the name was already prevalent. Also currently the link has no connection to the word genj (young) and the article claims another thing, but that is also faulty as shown above. Anyways we should adhere to the scholarly standard in Wikipedia and with English Wikipedia, one should at least have a good reliable English source. Clauson's Turkish etymology is for example reliable and one should check there first for any etymology in Turkic languages..but since Mackenzie has covered it already then there is no need to look at another etymology book considering the word is used in Persian before Turkish (Ferdowsi for example). --alidoostzadeh 02:40, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the whole Anglo-Saxon connection to Iran was made by British themselves decades ago, I had an article by one such British researcher somewhere. So your friend is not that crazy. :) Meanwhile, Ganja and Azerbaijan in general don't have too much published in English yet. This page is about a city in Azerbaijan, and including information from a semi-official website is OK. It is not so in Safavid page, or some other pages, but in a page about a city it should not be politicized. URLs are routinely included in many pages, such as about Armenia and other nations, with no objections. And once again, the theory is properly identified as such, as an Azerbaijani point of view. Anyone comparing it to versions from Western scholarly sources would obviously believe the latter over the former. However, the GMC site is verifiable and is essentially a semi-official site of the city of Ganja right now. --adil 03:04, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Also Achaemenid and Parthian empires should be added..--alidoostzadeh 02:49, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

We can add many other preceeding empires too -- how far do we go? To Scythians? Possibly maybe Urartu had the area? Some others? If according to most scholars Ganja was founded after 5th century AD, and thus after these two empires you mention, then why make the list longer than it already is? Of course if we go by the claimed 2,500 years old history, then they both can be added, but this is only a claim by local authorities and some scholars. --adil 03:04, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Assuming 2500 years based on western sources or archeological journal is found, thenn Achaemenid, Parthian would be valid since Achaemenid empire started around that time. Assuming 5th century A.D. then Sassanids. Probably Ummayad and Abbassid dynasties should be added also. My guess is that like many areas, probably the place was habited but it became major during Sassanid or Ummayad times. Given that Urartu, Sumerians, Elamites , Manna were not too far off, I am sure there are tons of places in the caucus with archeological remains since migration has taken a paths from the North through the caucus. Anyways, if you find a 3rd party for Turkic etymology let me know. --alidoostzadeh 03:12, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Pulu-Pughi, you can't remove the fact that Gandz is a word in Pahlavi, from which is became a loan-word in ancient Armenian, grabar (and not the other way around). Hence, Pahlavi takes precedence. Secondly, Sumgait.inf is not a NPOV site, it is a racist propaganda website. third, Kirakos Gandzaketsi's book was simply called "History" (Patmutyun), and not "History of Armenia" (Patmutyun Hayots). --adil 02:17, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I can remove Pahlavi/Persian because it has already been discussed in the beginning. whether the word Gandz became a loan-word in ancient Armenian is your OR; with the same ease I can say the opposite - the original term was Gandz, and then it was translated into Persian. On Kirakos: stop your POV amd OR. In the Western historiography it is well documented that his work is called "Patmutiun Hayots" - hence the sources I had added. Sumgait.info - again, that is your OR and POV; it is just an article and should stay there asa link and readers will decide as to the nature of that website if they would want to go beyond the article into exploring the site. I can likewise suggest that Azerb. websites you included are racist. Leave this to the audience Pulu-Pughi 13:48, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I took out the fictional Turkic theory (which cannot be supported by another scholarly sources) and re-added the Middle Persian (Pahlavi) origin of the word.Azerbaijani 20:25, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah. let's take out this dubious Turkic stuff. Ganja is either a Persian word or a Persian translation of the Armenain term Gandzak. Pulu-Pughi 02:09, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi. Ganja is Persian. Ganzdak/Ganjak is part of the Middle Persian/Parthian vocabulary of Armenian. Its meaning as treasury is of course used in Persian poetry for example Ganjineyeh Ganjah.. So Azeri has borrowed Ganja from Persian and Armenian has borrowed it from Middle Persian/Parthian. --alidoostzadeh 00:10, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. I think Ganja is from Persian or related Iranian language (Partian), and Armenian name is just the same distorted word. Plus, Ganja was never a part of any Armenian state, and Armenian population never prevailed in number, so no need to overemhpasize the Armenian presence. Also, sumgait.info is a hate site, I remember when Armenian users removed Azerbaijani websites about Khojaly massacre from the respective article, calling them anti-Armenian, I see no reason why sumgait.info should be listed here. Grandmaster 05:44, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Pulu-Pughi has been blocked as a sock account. Grandmaster 11:25, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I removed edits by User:Pulu-Pughi in accordance with WP:BAN#Enforcement_by_reverting_edits. If anyone wishes to read them, please cite your sources on talk, especially for the part that says: The medieval historian Movses Kaghankatvatzi mentions that it was founded in the district called in Arshakashen. I could not find anything like that in the source cited, so I think it was just a hoax claim. Grandmaster 05:18, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure what the other debates are about although the user tricethin seems like a new user (or an old one?) and I think he should discuss his changes. My main concern was just etymology. Just wanted to clarify the etymology after looking at Iranica and also Dehkhoda dictionary. Pahlavi it is Ganjak/Ganzak but Modern Persian it is Ganjah. Lots of Pahlavi words had k in the end and new persian it has been replaced by an h. There was a link also about 2500 archeology but it did not seem like a scholarly link (spelling and grammer wise and also some factual mistakes about Cyrus who actually fought the Massagatae around Oxus according to Herodotus and not Aras and perhaps this is the source of the 2500 or so) and so it is more appropriate for external links. I also have some couplets from famous poets mentioning Ganja..and I'll let others to include it if they want.

گویند که سلطان مهین بر در گنجه ست در گنجه کنون بین که ز بغداد فزون تر است خاقانی They say the exalted Sultan is at the door of Ganja Look at the pearl of Ganja as its more majestic than (the whole city of) Baghdad --alidoostzadeh 22:51, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Tricethin is just another sock of User:Artaxiad. As for your edit, I think it is OK. Grandmaster 05:00, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I removed edits of Tricethin, which is a proven sock of Artaxiad (see [22]). Reverting edits of banned users is not considered a parole violation, as per this: [23] Grandmaster 04:32, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Vartanm restored the section created by socks, but failed to quote sources used there. Vartan, please provide a quote for the claims contained in that section, especially for the part that says: The medieval historian Movses Kaghankatvatzi mentions that it was founded in the district called in Arshakashen. I found nothing like that in Kalankatuatsi. Grandmaster 06:44, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

It was not created by socks and it was sourced. If you want more sources here you go. [24]

That's not a source. Quote the sources used as references, in particular Kalankatuatsi. The section that you keep on restoring was created by Pulu-Pughi [25], which is an indefinitely blocked sock of banned user. Grandmaster 10:14, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry to step in, but here's the source that you're asking for: Returning at thence at the king's command and expense, he built the city of Ganjak in the canton of arshakashen (History of the Caucasian Albanians by Movses Dasxuranci, C.J.F. Dowsett trans. (London 1961), chapter 20, page 218. -- Davo88 18:46, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Can we have a larger quote? Who built? Grandmaster 04:27, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Don't bother, I found it in Russian edition of Kalankatuatsi’s book:

Спустя еще два года пришел хазр патгос, человек беспощадный и свирепый, но и сдох [здесь] в том же году. Но пришел сын его и покорил страну мечом, предал огню множество церквей, жителей взял в полон и ушел в Багдад. Затем он вновь пришел оттуда по царскому повелению и на средства казны построил в гаваре Аршакашен город Гандзак в двести девяносто пятом году [армянского летосчисления]. [26]

As I expected, the sock seriously distorted the source. It actually says that son of certain Khazr Patgos founded the city in the canton of Arshakashen. Here’s the quote from famous Russian scholar Vladimir Minorsky, who refers to the same text:

В 245/859 году [Мухаммад] построил город Джанза (Ганджа) в области (кура) Арран (Здесь, по-видимому, начинаются прямые цитаты из Т.-Б.). Причина была следующая: когда он находился в окрестностях Джубанта [47] (Хунанта?) (Возможно, Хунан, который находился на полдороге между Тифлисом и Ганджой. Согласно Истахри (стр. 189), он стоял на высоком холме и назывался также Кал'ат ат-тураб. Менее вероятно чтение Джавах.), где было три холма, ему приснилось в течение трех ночей подряд, что в одном из них зарыт клад, и (он слышал голос, который говорил ему): “Поднимись и останови там своего коня и, где конь ударит ногой, прикажи копать; затем возьми то, что найдешь там, и при помощи (находки) построй город и назови его Джанза [сокровищница]”. Он так и поступил и нашел три больших котла (мараджил): один был наполнен динарами, а два других — дирхемами. На эти деньги он построил город Джанза, а затем вернулся (А, л. 1052а) в Багдад, где сообщил халифу о кладе и о городе. Халиф сказал: “Города я не хочу, но найденные деньги отдай мне”. Мухаммад обязался вернуть деньги, но с условием, что халиф сделает наследным (владением) его и его детей город вместе с хорошо известными поместьями (дийа), которые и до сих пор называются Халидийат. Халиф утвердил дар, и Мухаммад вернулся в Джанзу. Он сложил с себя правление в Армении и удовольствовался городом Джанзой и доходом с поместий. [27]

Дата основания Джанзы (Ганджи) (245г.х./859), по-видимому, больше нигде не встречается (Более поздний источник — Нузхат ал-кулуб, написанный в 740г.х./1340 (GMS, стр. 91), относит основание Ганджи к 39г.х./659. Как указывает иранское название Ганза (Ганджа) ('сокровищница'), она, должно быть, существовала в доисламские времена. Провинция, где она лежит, называлась по-армянски Шакашен (греч. Сакасене) и даже во времена Александра славилась своим богатством (см. Адонц, Армения, СПб., 1908, стр. 421; Marquart, Skizzen, Wien, 1908, стр. 60. См. также хорошую популярную историю Ганджи, составленную М. М. Альтманом, Баку, 1949, стр. 15)), но историк Албании (Аррана) Моисей Каганкатваци (III, гл. 20, русск. пер. Патканяна, стр. 270) подтверждает, что “Гандзак в районе Аршакашена” был основан сыном жестокого Хазра патгос. Патгос, очевидно, стоит вместо патгоспан (перс, 'генерал-губернатор', 'вице король'), а в слове Хазр Маркварт (cм. Marquart, Streifzuge, стр. 402) справедливо видит искаженное имя Халид. Следовательно, армяне также приписывают основание Ганджи сыну Халида (Мухаммаду). Моисей добавляет, что Мухаммад построил Гандзак во время второго периода его правления Арменией, после чего он занял Сюник, напал на [племя] Балк и дошел до Алахечка. С этого момента история династии Йазидидов меняет свой характер: члены ее, назначавшиеся ранее на пост генерал-губернатора из Багдада, теперь становятся наследственными вассалами в своих ленных владениях. Как таковые они остаются вне поля зрения общих историков халифата. По этой причине значение Т.-Б. возрастает, так как это сочинение продолжает давать множество неизвестных фактов в связной форме. Легендой о Джанзе начинается ряд отрывков из Т.-Б., которые Мюнеджжим-баши имел в своем распоряжении. [28]

And here’s the same passage from Bosworth:

The post-Mongol historian Hamd-Allah Mostawfi says that the Arab town of Ganja was founded in 39/659-60 (i.e., at the time of the first Arab incursions into eastern Transcaucasia) but gives no details (Nozhat al-qolub, p. 91, tr. p. 93). A passage of the anonymous Tarik Bab al-abwab (extant in the Ottoman historian Monajjem-bashi's Jame al-dowal) states that Ganja was founded in 245/859-60 by Mohammad b. Kaled b. Yazid b. Mazyad, of the family of Yazidi governors in Sharvan, who was governor of Azerbaijan, Arran, and Armenia for the caliph al-Motawakkel, and so-called because of a treasure unearthed there, obviously a piece of folk etymology (see below). Mohammad resided there in his castle (qasr), presumably until his death in 247/861, making it the capital of Arran (Minorsky, 1958, tr. pp. 25-26, comm. pp. 57-58; cf. idem, 1953, pp. 5-6). Mohammad b. Kaled's role as founder (or rather, as re-founder, see below) of Ganja is confirmed by the Armenian historian Movses Dasxuranci, where he says that the son of Xazr (for Xald, as explained by Marquart, p. 462) Patgos built Ganjak in the canton of Arshakashen, with the date given in one manuscript as Armenian era 295/846-47 (bk. 3, ch. 20, tr. Dowsett, p. 218). The Persian name Ganja/Ganza (<ganj "treasure, treasury"; see MacKenzie, p. 35) points, however, to there having existed a much older, pre-Islamic town there. [29]

As you can see, foundation of the city has nothing to do with Armenians. The city was founded by Arabs in Arshakashen, which was one of the provinces of Caucasian Albania. Grandmaster 11:26, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I removed Bagramyan from the list of famous people, because he was not from the city of Ganja, he hailed from the village of Chardakhli in Khanlar district. Grandmaster 11:06, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

Yes, Ganja can have more than one meaning, but its also the name of this city, so please dont vandalize the article again anon. Azerbaijani 13:45, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I hope you wanted to say - "don't vandalize again"--Dacy69 15:04, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Yea, dont vandalize the article again anon.Azerbaijani 15:11, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Good luck, the potheads are always gonna vandalize this article. There is only one way you can stop the vandalism, rename the article to Gandzak :) VartanM 17:40, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Better yet, ask the admins to place this article on permanent semi-protection. Grandmaster 06:52, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Persian name

I think the Persian translation is there because Ganja in the first place is a Persian name. I reinserted it.Hajji Piruz 16:30, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Armenian Community

I added the Historic Armenian community section back. I take full responsibility for the text as if I wrote it myself. There really is no good reason to exclude this information from this article. --VartanM 01:16, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Also,I followed Grandmasters advice and requested permanent semi-protection. Which was declined, I guess we gonna have to go with my suggestion and rename the article to Gandzak. That would defiantly end all "ganja" related vandalism. But it might attract some Armenian pirates looking for gandz :) --VartanM 01:47, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Why is the section a problem?Hajji Piruz 03:37, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

It was removed because it was added by a suspected sockpuppet of Robert599. I re-added and take full responsibility for it. --VartanM 03:44, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

This edit is made by the banned user, and the rules require undoing all edits of banned users. Plus, this edit is factually inaccurate anyway. I explained above that Kalankatuatsi actually says that the city was founded by Arabs, unlike what the sock claims. This edit was reverted by the Wikipedia admin as well, so please stop restoring it. Grandmaster 09:30, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Grandmaster is there anything else you dispute besides the founding of the city? VartanM 15:29, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

VartanM, I dispute pretty much all of original research which you put in without proper reference. I will add appropriate fact tags at the end of each sentence, which is not sourced, and you're welcome to bring those references to discussion. Atabek 22:00, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

OK, why would someone not add sections about strong Azerbaijani communities that for centuries existed in almost every major city of the modern-day Armenia to each relevant article? It is really irrelevant to see a whole big section about an Armenian minority population of an Azerbaijani city. As usual, it is an obvious attempt to indirectly advance baseless Armenian territorial claims. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.126.241.215 (talk) 23:44, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Also, who are these people Karo Halabyan and Askanaz Mravyan to be mentioned in the main body of the article? These personalities were so insignificant that they do not merit to be mentioned there. Just because they each have a small entry at the Soviet Encyclopedia doesn't mean they were so important. At most, you can move them to the famous people list. I am sure that even 99.999% of Armenians have never heard about this people. There have been hundreds of other people (mostly non-Armenians) hailing from Ganja who have been or are more prominent than those Armenians who are mentioned. Just goes to show that some people wish to show as many Armenian names as possible in this article, to advance goals which I mentioned above. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.126.241.215 (talk) 23:51, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dubious

VartanM, please, provide proper source to Soviet census, the one you cited is not appropriate, as it has no page number, nor ISBN, nor document title or issue number. Atabek 22:06, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Atabek, is there any need? Anyways the Brockauz and Efron encycl. prove that words! Andranikpasha 17:35, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Andranik, you added the following quotes:

"the union of Georgian and Armenian armies near Gandzak", Great Soviet Encyclopedia

"Mkhitar Gosh was born in Gandzak", Mkhitar Gosh article

"Irakly with his army.... took Karin (Erzeroum), Dvin, Nakhichevan and Gandzak (Ganja)"

Can you please explain how the above quotes support the claims that Ganja was known as Gandzak among Armenians? None of those sources says anything remotely close to that. Grandmaster 12:52, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Grandmaster, these sources are going to prove that Armenian name Ganzdak exists. Do you really need a source asking Ganja was known as Gandzak among Armenians?[30][31] you can open any Armenian source! And it was known as Gandzak among Armenians since middle ages (Kirakos Gandzaketsi- Kirakos of Gandzak), or for example see the "Chronics" by Smbat Sparapet (XII century) : "he gave the Armenian city Gandzak to his junior brother Melek" (also see the comment: "Gandzak - modern Kirovabad, Azerbaijani SSR") [32] Or are you going to prove that the Gandzak name is known not only among Armenians (if yes, Im glad, the sources are asking the same thing)? Sorry but some days ago you denyed even the fact of existence of Gandzak name... Andranikpasha 17:35, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Gandzak is corrupted Ganja. And the name was used not only by Armenians. See this Armenian primary source, this is a quote from Chronicles by Zachariah Kanakertsi, 17th century Armenian historian:

Некий человек из племени алван, которых ныне зовут удинами, из алванского города Гандзака, отправился в Святую обитель Гандзасара, где находится престол алванского католикоса, и стал учеником католикоса Ованнеса. [33]

Закарий Канакерци. Хроника.

Some man from the tribe of alvans, who are now called udis, from the alvanian town of Gandzak, went to the holy monastery of Gandzasar, where the residence of alvanian catholicos is located, and became a disciple of Catholicos Ovannes. Grandmaster 07:48, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Even Armenian sources refer to the city as Albanian. Grandmaster 07:48, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

And Bagramyan was not born in Ganja, he was born in the village of Chardakhly of Khanlar district, but not in the city of Ganja. Grandmaster 12:52, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

But Albania was also a region in Armenian Kingdom, so its never means the Gandzak name is not Armenian (if other nations also used it, Im glad, but its fact that Armenians too). Anyways if you believe its not only an Armenian name, than whats the problem to put it in the description, near the Turkish one? Otherwise we need to prove here even the existence of that name. Andranikpasha 19:08, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Really, Grandmaster, I see sources are asking different things, its really unclear. But as I know anyways he was born in Elizavetpol and taken to Chardakhlu after some days (its why the most reliable Soviet source marks Elizavetpol, not Chardakhlu)... Anyways we can make a consensus! Andranikpasha 17:35, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Parishan: the term "Azeris" can be applied only to the period from 1920 onward, whereas here we talk about the entire history of the city. There were no "Azeris" in the 19th century and before. Verjakette 13:33, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

The passage refers to the Soviet census. The source used is called Soviet Census in 1926-1979, Newspaper Pravda Press, Moscow, 1983. And Moses of Kalankatuyk says that the city was founded in the 9th century, i.e. the area was part of Caucasian Albania at that time. Grandmaster 13:35, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

No, the passage refers to the entire history of the city: that's why there are names of medieval Armenian figures like Gosh. I do not see any connection between what Movses of K. said and the argument about the "Azeris." the city had Arabs, Persians and even Kurds as residents. Sheddadi rulers of the city were in fact Kurds. Verjakette 14:15, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Verjakette, Mkhitar Gosh was not an Armenian but Albanian figure. You may want to refer to the works of CJF Dowsett for further information. In future, please, obtain sources for the material you add in this article. So far your contributions are not cited and appear to be original research. Thanks. Atabek 14:39, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Atabek, please don't bite the newcomers. Verjakette if you want to improve the articles you need to source them. Oh and Mkhitar Gosh was Armenian. VartanM 18:05, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Atabek, if you remember, I asked and sourced once during a arbitration that Gosh was an Armenian (even there werent a discuss on them). Must I repeat myself everywhere with the same reliable sources asking Gosh was an Armenian monk? Andranikpasha 18:36, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Andranik, there is no need to become emotional its just Atabek being Atabek. Nothing is Armenian for him. VartanM 19:04, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Haha. I just saw Atabek saying Mkhitar Gosh was not Armenian.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 20:53, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

There is a good book on ethnic nationalism that has a chapter on Karabakh conflict. It discusses the formation of Azerbaijani people in the 1930s and Azerbaijani nationalist myths about their history. See: Stuart J. Kaufman. Modern Hatreds: The Symbolic Politics of Ethnic War. Cornell University Press (June 2001). ISBN-10: 0801487366. pages 50-65. I also noticed that Grandmaster and his friends have succeeded in suppressing a balanced narrative in the article Caucasian Albania; as a result, this article has very little if anything about the influence of Armenian culture and identity in Caucasian Albania - despite the almost complete absence of evidence that any "Caucasian Albanian" culture or ethnic identity ever existed. How can we keep this POV out of Wikipedia? Verjakette 22:57, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

By the way, Kaufman's chapter about Azerbaijani nationalism is available online from Google Books. Atabek's point of view reflects Azerbaijani nationalist doctrine, and thus is a POV. Verjakette 23:22, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

How come that no Albanian culture or ethnic identity ever existed, if it is well documented in Roman, Greek and Arabic sources, as well as modern scholarly literature? And why do you keep on removing the line that the area was part of Caucasian Albania at the time of the foundation of the city by Arabs? Whatever was before 387 is irrelevant to what took place in the 9th century A.D. Grandmaster 07:57, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it is irrelevant because Caucasian Albania was a country dominated by Armenian culture and civilization imported from Armenian provinces of Artsakh and Utik. It's alphabet, created by no other than Mashtots, have never been in extensive use because it became redundant. Armenians assimilated non-Armenian "Albanians" by 387 AD (not a big surprise given that the latter were so disorganized, diverse, and, likely, too few). Very little - if anything - "Caucasian Albanian" (ethnically) is documented after it received Christian baptism from Armenians. By 387, Caucasian Albania became just another Armenian kingdom (there have always been more than one), and that is what Movses Kaghankatvatsi documented in his work. He never calls himself or others in his work "Albanians" but "easterners." Movses Khorenatsi writes in the 5th century (and that is an important quote) that "Armenian is not spoken east of Kura" (i.e. spoken west of Kura). Ganca was built on Armenian-dominated soil - that is the point, by Arabs, and was ruled later by a Kurdish dynasty, and then the Seljuks came. But still, Armenians made up at least one-third of its population. Verjakette 16:34, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

No one is going to take away from Azerbaijanis what is rightfully their; if I were you I would concentrate on the Sheddadi dynasty - they started as Arabized Kurds but were Turkified by Seljuk Turks. Ganca was an important Muslim city after all. There is a lot to write about; leave alone the un-winnable dispute over "Caucasian Albanians." Verjakette 16:49, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Verjakette, Utik and Artsakh were not Armenian provinces all along, as you make it seem in the article. And just because Caucasian Albania experienced some Armenian influence does not mean we have to stick the word Armenia into every article, where Caucasian Albania is mentioned. The part about Albania being an Armenian state I do not even wish to comment on, it is pure OR. Parishan 05:55, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Verjakette, you say that "Armenians assimilated non-Armenian "Albanians" by 387 AD". If so, how come that Arabic geographers of the 10th century knew nothing about that? They all say that people of Arran spoke their own language, which was not Armenian, and Armenian was spoken only around the city of Dabil (Dvin). Please refrain from original research, it is against the Wikipedia rules. Even Armenian sources called Ganja an Albanian city, see the quote from the Armenian historian Zachariah Kanakertsi above. Grandmaster 11:07, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

See the Arabic sources of the 10th century:

Al-Muqaddasi wrote in 985:

В Армении говорят по-армянски, а в Арране по-аррански; когда они говорят по-персидски, то их можно понимать, а их персидский язык кое в чем напоминает хурасанский. [34]

In Armenia they speak Armenian, and in Arran Arranian; when they speak Persian, they could be understood, and their Persian somewhat resembles Khorasani.

Ibn-Hawqal wrote in 978:

Что касается до языка жителей Адербейджана и большинства жителей Армении, то это персидский и арабский, но мало кто говорит по-арабски, а, кроме того, говорящие по-персидски не понимают по-арабски. Чисто по-арабски говорят купцы, владельцы поместий, а для многих групп населения в окраинах Армении и прилежащих стран существуют другие языки, как армянский — для жителей Дабиля и области его, а жители Берда'а говорят по-аррански. [35]

As to the language of the people of Aderbeyjan and most of the people of Armenia, it is Persian and Arabic, but very few speak Arabic, besides, those who speak Persian do not understand Arabic. Fluent Arabic is spoken by merchants and landowners, and there are other languages for many population groups in the outskirts of Armenia and adjacent countries, such as Armenian for the people of Dabil and its area, and people of Berdaa speak Arranian.

Al-Istakhri wrote in 930:

Язык в Адербейджане, Армении и Арране персидский и арабский, исключая области города Дабиля: вокруг него говорят по-армянски: в стране Берда'а язык арранский. [36]

In Aderbeijan, Armenia and Arran they speak Persian and Arabic, except for the area around the city of Dabil: they speak Armenian around that city, and in the country of Barda people speak Arranian.

As you can see, they all say that people of Arran (Persian and Arabic spelling of Albania) spoke their own language, that was different from Armenia. Therefore your claims that “Ganca was built on Armenian-dominated soil” are nothing but original research, which is forbidden by the Wikipedia rules. Grandmaster 11:17, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

These passages show how confused are the authors whom you mentioned (not surprising - they are foreigners, saying something as strange as "in Aderbeijan, Armenia and Arran they speak Persian and Arabic." ?????). In the city of Berdaa the predominant language could have been non-Armenian (population in Artsakh and Utik could have been mixed, as argued by R.Hewsen), but it could have been a dialect of Armenian as well (for example, modern Karabakhi dialect is very, very hard to understand; it has twice (!) the number of vowels and some weird consonants - Russian Щ - compared with literary Armenian). That is why some researchers argue that the Albanian alphabet invented by Mashtots (if it existed at all) is simply a separate alphabet for the Armenian dialect of Artsakh and Utik. We simply do not know. Serbian and Bulgarian are mutually-intelligible but are considered as different languages nonetheless, the same is true about Azerbaijani and Turkish. Yesai Nchetsi writes that in the Middle Ages there were several Armenian languages. Any conclusion here original research by default - the entire "Albanian" stuff is complicated and incomplete. And what we should do - expose controversies that cause things not to add up. Verjakette 15:00, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Caucasian Albanian texts have been discovered and examined; none of the prominent scholars who worked on them ever brought forward the theory of Caucasian Albanian being a dialect of Armenian. Moses of Kalankatuik clearly names the tribe whose language was used as a model for the Caucasian Albanian alphabet, and does a good job describing its complicated phonology, alien to the Armenian language. I don't think we should spend our time here discussing odd and arbitrary conjectures. Parishan 00:09, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

This is not true, the said texts were studied by a Georgian scholar who is known to recycle the Azerbaijani academia of science theories. The texts found were never deciphered, even by using the Udi dialect claimed by Azerbaijan and Georgian scholars to be the Albanian. In fact, all the manuscripts that were deciphered from Caucasian Albania ended up being Armenian, the few samples used by Georgian historians have yet to be deciphered. No credible scholar would assume before even being able to decipher. Summerian and very old writings have been deciphered so there is no excuse to keep the suspense so long, and we have the keys for Albanian alphabets found in Armenian manuscripts so any independent scholar is free to translate them but the Georgian Academia of Science prefer to keep those samples with its own interpretations trying to appropriate itself with Albanian history. VartanM 03:43, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Vartan, if so, name me one scholar who suggested and proved that the Caucasian Albanian alphabet was just another way of documenting Armenian texts. Parishan 06:09, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Parishan, provide any C.Albanian text and I will translate it for you using this alphabet[37]. You don't need scholars for that. Any Armenian with knowledge of 1500 year old Armenian alphabet can do it for you. VartanM 06:25, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

You are engaging in original research. The Arabic sources say that people of Arran and its capital Barda spoke their own Arranian language, and that is a verifiable fact. The rest are just your personal assumptions. A scholarly interpretation is that the language mentioned by Arabic sources was Albanian, and not some dialect of Armenian. See this quote from the article about Arran by C. E. Bosworth in encyclopedia Iranica:

Strabo 9.4, cites Theophanes of Mytilene that Albania had at least 26 different languages or dialects, and the distinctive Albanian speech persisted into early Islamic times, since Armenian and Islamic sources alike stigmatize the tongue as cacophonous and barbarous, with Estakhri, p. 192, Ebn Hawqal, p. 349, tr. Kramers-Wiet, p. 342, and Moqaddasi, p. 378, recording that al-Raniya was still spoken in the capital Barda’a or Bardaa in their time (4th/10th century). [38] Grandmaster 08:38, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Grandmaster: I do not think people disagree with that: as you said - people of Arran and its capital Barda may have spoken their own Arranian language, and Albanian speech could have persisted into early Islamic times. That may be true. But this is not a hard fact. Your claim that it is a hard fact is a POV and original research. This is a hypothesis, and it should be categorized as such clearly. In contrast, the fact is that the Arranian "language" has been dead since early Islamic times, and only a handful of artifacts of Albanian script were discovered (and if those artifacts are indeed genuine documents and not forgeries, scholars cannot decipher those texts, as argued by VartanM). Against this flimsy evidence of non-Armenian life in Caucasian Albania there is a comparatively larger body of evidence about a near-complete assimilation of C.Albanian elites and commonfolk into Armenians shortly after Armenians turned them into Christians. Everything in Movses Kaghankatvatsi's texts is Armenian: first names of persons, toponyms, extensive discussion and identification with Armenians epical ancestors and saints, invention of "Albanian" script by Mashtots, etc. Modern Armenians bear "Albanian" names after all (Vachagan, Aghvan, Vache, etc.). That is a fact. My advise - give up this fight, or show more flexibility. Verjakette 14:12, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

...however, quotations from Arabic sources are interesting and useful; thanks for digging them up. Verjakette 22:02, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

It is not a version, it is a fact reported by at least 3 contemporary sources, who knew the difference between Armenian and other languages, as they described the areas where Armenian was spoken. It is confirmed by modern scholars too, so it is not a subject to dispute. We know that as late as the 10th century people of Albania spoke their own language. As for Movses, since his book is in Armenian, spelling of many words was adapted to Armenian language, but it is not a proof that Albanian language was extinct in the 10th century. We have reports of a number of primary sources clearly saying that Albanian language was the only prevailing in the area at that time. Grandmaster 09:05, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I removed Kaufman references, as its claim was simply ridiculous. How could Azerbaijanis/Azeris be named since 1930s, when the sovereign nation of Azerbaijan was established in 1918, moreover, Azerbaijan as historical name was known for ages. Atabek (talk) 08:42, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi ! Mybe Kaufman is talking about the new interperitation of Russians about the Azerbijanis:before that ,the Azeris and the Turkic speaking peoples of that region were considered as "Tatar" by Russians.The Azeris called themselves as "Qezilbash" , after 1930s , the Russians policy of adding Iranian Azerbijan to USSR made them to change their previous point of view and naming them by a new name....--Alborz Fallah (talk) 11:34, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I reverted some unexpl. deletions of sourced info. Andranikpasha (talk) 16:38, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I deleted some of the information about Ganja, because all of the references indicated are subjective and reflect only the position of the Armenian side. The history of Ganja is described based solely on the opinion of the Armeninan historians instead of facts. Wikipedia is a place where one can obtain facts not opinions. Therefore, I suggest that the information based on the views of historians will be removed. Ganjali. February 15, 2008.

[edit] language section

uber Engrish on that one... It made me laugh. But I'm high. So yeah. Anyway, somebody might want to clean that up... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.175.226.27 (talk) 18:43, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] move from Ganja → Ganja (city)

I disapprove of this move, which was done without discussion. No disambiguation page is needed for only 2 definitions (per WP:MOS). This article should be moved back to Ganja, but as far as I know that can only be done by an administrator. —jacobolus (t) 18:32, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Update: it turns out that a disambig page also already exists at Ganja (disambiguation). —jacobolus (t) 18:56, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

It is not at all clear that this city is the primary meaning of ganja, which it should be to hold the undisambiguated name. I would expect that more people are going to be looking up ganja as a synonym for marijuana, either because it's the word they can think of, or they've met ganja as an unexplained allusion. Septentrionalis PMAnderson

Agree. I wouldn't even redirect the unqualified name to Ganja {city), it should point to the disambig IMO. Either that or move the disambig to the unqualified name. Andrewa (talk) 06:42, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Andrew and Anderson. Move the disambiguation page to Ganja, leave the city where it is. Narson (talk) 14:02, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

That's silly. The overwhelming majority of other wiki pages linking to Ganja are going to be looking for the city. Users looking for a slang term for cannabis can afford to click a link or two. “Ganja” in the sense of cannabis does not merit its own page, and doesn’t have one, so there is no real contention for articles belonging at Ganja. —jacobolus (t) 20:49, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I think the city name is more important than cannabis. So the name of Ganja should point to the city and the disambig link point to other meanings of the word. Grandmaster (talk) 05:17, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Importance isn't an issue (And is highly subjective. To the recreational drug taker, I am sure ganja as a term for cannabis is /far/ more important than the second city in a country where I doubt most English speakers could name the capital city). Primary usage is what we look for. There is no clearly defined primary usage (IMO) for the term and certainly no evidence provided to the contrary in the request. To paraphrase jacobolus, users looking for a small city in Azerbaijan can afford to click a link or two. Narson (talk) 09:22, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

It is a second largest city in Azerbaijan with the population of about half a million, so it is not so small. I'm not really sure that cannabis is the primary usage of the word, and there's no article for ganja as cannabis, as it was correctly noted above. Grandmaster (talk) 10:00, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

What you seem to be missing is that there are all kinds of links all over Wikipedia to “Ganja” which are intended for the article about the city (perfectly logically). Those who look up “Ganja” used as a slang term for cannabis are just aiming for a dictionary definition: that usage has no article of its own, nor does it merit one. —jacobolus (t) 10:31, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Jacobolus. Grandmaster (talk) 10:37, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

So fix the links to the correct location, Jacobolus. That or prove primary usage. You want the move, put some effort in. Narson (talk) 17:59, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Wait, what? You want me to go change the links so that after a move they'll be wrong and need to be changed back, as a way of proving my willingness to “put effort in”?!! That is idiotic. This whole situation was fine, before a complete novice user, with no discussion before-hand, made a move of this article, which I consider to be contra WP:MOS. I would suggest that we move back to the previous status quo, then thos who want Ganja to point somewhere else can argue for it. I would be WP:BOLD make such a change myself, but I'm not an administrator, so I can't. —jacobolus (t) 17:33, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I said fix the links in response to your statement that it should be moved back because alot of links are pointing at the wrong place. I then mentioned proving primary usage, that is where the effort should be put in. Prove it is primary usage and you'll be the belle of the ball/cat with the cream/dogs bollocks/whatever other term you want. As for non-discussed moves, I can sympathise with your frustration (the Amritsar Massacre got moved to the Indian name for it sometime back without discussion and attempts to move it back have failed). Sadly one of those areas where the editors who try and do things by consensus are at a disadvantage. Narson (talk) 17:41, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

The links are pointing at the right place. Just the article isn't there. —jacobolus (t) 18:21, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

The incorrect article then. You know what I meant. Narson (talk) 18:43, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

• The city in Azerbaijan is not a dominant meaning. Most people have likely never heard of it (but more may know it as Kirovabad). To me, and likely to many, "ganja" first means cannabis. Move Ganja (disambiguation) to Ganja. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 16:33, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

The move to Ganja, Azerbaijan seems a good outcome. I've delisted this page from the WP:RM backlog, I think the proposal listed there is now obsolete. Andrewa (talk) 01:50, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

No, I disagree. It should still be moved to Ganja. --jacobolus (t) 04:16, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, relisting as Ganja, Azerbaijan -> Ganja. Suggest that as far as possible you base your arguments on WP:NC; Arguments such as that's silly tend to damage rather than advance your case IMO. Andrewa (talk) 15:27, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

[edit] Dubious claim

I removed a claim that the city of Ganja was part of the Kingdom of Armenia. It is logically impossible, as the city was founded in the 9th century A.D., and the Kingdom of Armenia stopped existing in the 4th century A.D. The following was used as a source for the claim:

Cameron, Averil; Bryan Ward-Perkins, Michael Whitby (April 16, 2001). The Cambridge Ancient History Volume 14: Late Antiquity: Empire and Successors, AD 425-600. Cambridge University Press, p. 674. ISBN 0521325919.

I would like to see the precise quote from the above source, as I highly doubt that this quote is accurate. Such authoritative sources as Minorsky or Iranica never mention Ganja as part of Armenia, since it is impossible because of timing. Grandmaster (talk) 05:58, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

There was a medieval Kingdom of Armenia, of course; but I'll see what I can do. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:43, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

• This article does not say the city was founded in the 9th century; it says Arab chroniclers said it was, a significant difference.
• The quotation deals with Gandzak, but since that redirects to the dab page, I presume this to be a difference of language.
• The quotation deals with the restoration of Khusro II in 591: The legitimate heir, Khusro II, son of Hormizd, appealed to the emperor Maurice for help, promising in return to cede to the empire all of Armenia as far as Lake Van and Drin, plus part of Georgia. The offer was accepted, and the Armenians under Mushegh, prince of the Mamikoneans, sided with Khusro and the Byzantines. Their combined forces defeated Vahram the following year at Gandzak in eastern Armenia. Installed as ruler of Persia, Khusro fulfilled his promise: Armenia west of the Hrazdan and Azat rivers passed to Byzantium.
• Gandzak did exist, and was part of Armenia; but Armenia was then, as it usually was, partitioned between Rome and Persia. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:28, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

That's apparently a different Gandzak, in Iran. This city was founded in the 9th century. See Iranica:

It is not to be confused, in a pre- and early Islamic context, with the near-homonymous Ganjak (q.v.; Ar. ˆ^z) in Azerbaijan, the site of a famous fire temple (see Markwart, Provincial Capitals, pp. 108-10). [39]

As for Ganja in Caucasus, it was founded by Arabs in Islamic times. The Kingdom of Armenia ceased to exist in the 4th century, and this area became a part of Caucasian Albania. So it could not be a part of Armenia due to timing. The foundation of the city by Arabs is confirmed by the historian of Caucasian Albania Movses Kagankatvatsi, see the same source, and also see C. J. F. Dowsett. A Neglected Passage in the "History of the Caucasian Albanians" Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, Vol. 19, No. 3. (1957), pp. 456-468. and Vladimir Minorsky. History of Shirvan and Derbend, they describe the same in more detail.

But even if we assume the earliest date of foundation of the city proposed by some scholars, i.e. 5th century A.D., the city still could not have been a part of the Kingdom of Armenia, first, because no such kingdom existed at the time, and second, because the region was part of Caucasian Albania at that time.

So the above source that refers to Ganja in 591 clearly points to a different place, as in the 6th century the region was not a part of the Kingdom of Armenia. Grandmaster (talk) 05:11, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

And here's a source that confirms that it is Ganja/Ganzak in Iran that is mentioned in The Cambridge Ancient History. See below, the article from Encyclopedia Iranica about the second Ganja:

Ganzak appears in the late Pahlavi text Šahrestānīhā ī Ērān (sec. 56) as one of Azerbaijan’s two cities (the other being then probably Ardabīl, Markwart, Provincial Capitals, pp. 22, 106). It figures also in two late episodes of Sasanian history. In 590 Ḵosrow II Parvēz finally defeated Bahrām Čōbīn (q.v.) in a battle nearby; and in 628 Ganzak itself was taken by the Byzantine emperor Heraclius, who reported it to be a large town, with “about 3000 houses” (Minorsky, p. 251; Schippmann, 1971, p. 316). It survived into Islamic times, and is last mentioned by Yāqūt (III, pp. 353-55; Schippmann, Feuerheiligtümer, p. 323) as “a fairly flourishing small town in Azerbaijan, near Marāḡa, where are to be seen ruins of edifices built by the ancient kings of Persia, and a fire temple;” but whether this was the situation in Yāqūt’s own day, and when and by whom Ganzak was devastated, is not known. [40]

Bahram Chobin is Vahram from your source, he was Khosrow’s rival for power. He was defeated in 590 A.D. near Ganja in Atropatene. I think this brings clarity in confusion with 2 Ganja's. Grandmaster (talk) 11:42, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Come now; Atropatene is Azerbaijan. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:46, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, yes, it is. I never said it was not. My point is that the source that you quoted refers to a different city by the name of Ganja, the one in Iranian Azerbaijan, on the other side of Araks. Grandmaster (talk) 18:37, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying. (This is another, independent, reason, to have Ganja or Ganzak as a dab page; they're ambiguous.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:25, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

If there's an article on the second Ganja, then the dab page is necessary, I agree. But then again, the second Ganja is a currently non-existent city, so I'm not sure how to prioritize the links. We need to think of the best way of organizing the links to avoid confusion. Grandmaster (talk) 05:56, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

And yes, there's an article about the second Ganja, called Ganzak. I added the link to disambig page. Let it be at disambig unless any other solution is agreed. Grandmaster (talk) 05:58, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

The city dates from the 5th century, and was founded in the early 400's.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 18:51, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Do you have a source for that? And the source that you quoted has no relevance to this Ganja, it is about Ganzak in Iran, see the above discussion. It was never a part of Kingdom of Armenia, so please read the talk and discuss before reverting. Grandmaster (talk) 20:01, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

It's regarding this city, called Gandzak. This article as well states with a source that: "the city existed in pre-Islamic times and was likely founded in the fifth century A.D". Your assumption that the source refers to Ganzak in Iran is unsubstantiated original research. Please refrain from making unilateral changes in the future.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 21:08, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Here's the quote from your source kindly provided by Septentrionalis:

The legitimate heir, Khusro II, son of Hormizd, appealed to the emperor Maurice for help, promising in return to cede to the empire all of Armenia as far as Lake Van and Drin, plus part of Georgia. The offer was accepted, and the Armenians under Mushegh, prince of the Mamikoneans, sided with Khusro and the Byzantines. Their combined forces defeated Vahram the following year at Gandzak in eastern Armenia. Installed as ruler of Persia, Khusro fulfilled his promise: Armenia west of the Hrazdan and Azat rivers passed to Byzantium.

According to this article in Iranica [41], the battle was near the city of Ganzak in Iran. Also, even if the city was founded in the 5th century A.D., it still could not be a part of kingdom of Armenia, as there was no such state at the time. So please refrain from adding dubious info to the article and do not engage in WP:OR. Thank you. Grandmaster (talk) 21:19, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

That is original research. The source is referring to Gandzak located in Eastern Armenia. You're engaging in original research. As for the Kindom of Armenia, it was absorbed into the Sassanid Empire in 428 with the dissolution of the monarchy. I don't know how you're counting, but 428 AD is in the 5th century where I come from.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 21:42, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not engaging in any original research. How can you prove that your source mentions this particular Ganja, when there was more than one city with that name in the region? So it is you who makes OR. Other sources make it pretty clear that Bahram Chobin was defeated near Ganja/Ganzak in Iran. See the article about Bahram in Iranica, he was defeated near different Ganja. Also see the article about Kingdom of Armenia, it was not an independent state after 387 АD, and territories on the right bank of Kura were in possession of Albania since 387 АD. So Ganja in Albania could not be part of Armenia in the 5th century A.D. Grandmaster (talk) 07:06, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Also see Roman-Persian War of 572–591 and check which Ganzak is mentioned there. Grandmaster (talk) 09:08, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok, another source:

The final battle at Ganzak, by the river Blarathos, in late summer was a decisive victory for Khusro and his allies. The bulk of the Roman forces then returned to Roman territory.

Geoffr Greatrex. Roman Eastern Frontier and the Persian Wars: 363-628 AD, a Narrative Sourcebook ISBN-10: 0415146879

Now check where the river Blarathos and Ganzak were located, here’s the map from another book: [42]

I think this puts an end to this discussion. Grandmaster (talk) 10:02, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Gandzak in the source provided is located in Eastern Armenia as the refernce clearly states. Your attempt to ignore the source with original research is a waste of time. But even your original research is inaccurate. The Ganzak you are referring to is located in a territory that is way beyond any territory that has ever been under an Armenian dominion, while the source states that Gandzak was in Eastern Armenia. As for the Kingdom, whether it was independent or not is irrelevant. It was a Kingdom with its monarchy and its territories until 428 under Sassanid vassalage from 387. Caucasian Albania never existed as a unified state and was nothing more than a geographic designation for most of its history. Some Armenian territories from the right bank were assigned to the Sassanid province of Albania in the mid fifth century only for administrative purposes and they never reached that far west anyway. I believe we're done now. -- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 20:00, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Your source refers to Ganzak as a place where Bahram was defeated, and all the sources say that Bahram was defeated at Ganzak in Iran. He could not have been defeated twice in the same year at 2 different Ganzaks. So clearly the source refers to Ganzak in Iran. Check the sources again: "The final battle at Ganzak, by the river Blarathos", etc. And the article about Iranian Ganzak in Iranica says the same. You never even commented about those sources, I wonder why. And Albania did exist as a unified state and the territories at the right bank of Kura were at firm possession of Albania since 387, so Ganja could not have been a part of Armenia in the 5th century, as the borders of Armenia did not extend to that territory at the time. Grandmaster (talk) 07:26, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

As is known, Ganja in Caucasus was built in the province of Utik of Caucasian Albania. Albania lost it to Armenia, and regained it in 387. See Minorsky:

Only after the division of Armenia between Byzantium and Persia in 387 did the provinces of Uti and Artsakh (lying south of the Kur) fall again to the lot of the Albanian ruler. The earlier capital of Albania seems to have lain north of this river, whereas the later capital Perozapat (Partav, Barda'a) was built by the Albanian Vach'e only under the Sasanian king Péroz (457-84).

Vladimir Minorsky. A History of Sharvān and Darband in the 10th-11th Centuries.

If you need more sources on that, I can provide them. The fact is that Armenia had no control over this territory after the 4th century. Grandmaster (talk) 08:48, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

• I think Grandmaster is right:the new Ganja is different with ancient Ganzak (East of Urumia lake).I think it was here : 37° 3'53.63"N, 46° 9'46.25"E.--Alborz Fallah (talk) 10:30, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

• Agree. there should be more proves that the source is refering to present Ganja.