Talk:Francis Xavier

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:

Contents

[edit] Poor structure

Maybe instead of early life and the death, break early life into early life and missionary work. Also, include the inquisition part in missionary work as it's tacked onto the end of everything and makes it seem like somebody with an anti-Catholic/Jesuit POV wrote that in well after the fact. And the founding of the Jesuits is slightly off. At Montmarte, the Companions vowed to visit the Holy Lands, and after they were turned away, they went to Rome and asked to become a religious order. [1] (See paragraph entitled The Company of Jesus)

[edit] Removed neutrality

I suppose someone removed the inquisition paragraph, and left the other reference (the Goa Inquisition) intact, which I thought dramatically improved the NPOV here. Hence I removed the neutrality-questioning notice. If anyone would like to put it back, all I ask is that you quote any sections that are not NPOV. Elektrosev 19:42, 20 May 2007 (UTC)Elektrosev

[edit] If you're going to write stuff like this...

The first section describes a horrible inquisition. Indeed, it's something so serious that for credibility's sake I think it should be cited thoroughly!

I haven't removed it because I don't know enough about the subject and am not about to go research it now. I have, however, removed some obviously redundant and non-NPOV statements, and separated it into a paragraph of its own.

And one more thing: if whoever authored that section is going to write anything anywhere else, they should be more mindful of their mechanics (capitalization and punctuation in particular).Elektrosev 18:58, 19 May 2007 (UTC)Elektrosev

[edit] Redundancy

The tex! "He also proposed the creation of the infamous Goa Inquisition, which was installed six years after his death and resulted in the forced conversions, torture and murder of thousands of Hindus, Muslims,Indian Jews and non-Catholic Indian Christians. Xavier himself was not involved in the acts." appears twice in the article, once in the introductory paragraph and once in the main text. I have removed it from the introductory paragraph. Almost verbatim redundancy is not proper encyoclopedic style.167.80.244.204 20:19, 27 March 2007 (UTC)chevalier3

[edit] Moved from the article

  • "the consciousness of acting in God's service never forsook him" (speculation)
  • "mere figures may be disregarded, as they are difficult to verify" (pov)

Wmahan 16:00, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Inquisition

Well in an effort to move the article more to the center you have made it horribly biased towards an anti-Christian POV, a more encyclopedic wording would be better. Cheetoian 22:50 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I have added one sentence about the Goa Inquisition(cf. Guardian of the Dawn - Richard Zimler 2005) , which I feel is neccessary. The article otherwise is would become quite christian POV. Please do not remove the line Elvenscout742. 60.254.13.20 13:44, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I have added sentences refering to the Inquisition in Goa, based on the references (listed), that I found during the copy-edit of Inquisition in Goa. I will yield to better researched explantations in this case --IMpbt 20:55, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

there's barely any mention of the Goa Inquisition in this article. --Dangerous-Boy 07:10, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't know much about this, but just thought I mention this here so someone else who has more info can put this up. There is a myth regarding St Francis Xavier's statue in Malacca, Malaysia which has its right hand missing off. It is said that when St Francis died, his right hand was cut off and sent to the vatican in order to verify his death and to investigate the miracalous claim of his uncorrupt body. Here's one link to the statue in Malacca http://www.virtualtourist.com/travel/Asia/Malaysia/Negeri_Melaka/Melaka-1281809/Things_To_Do-Melaka-Statute_of_St_Francis_Xavier-BR-1.html

P sorry for my poor command on English 210.187.3.170


The Goan Inquisition was conducted by the Portuguese under the auspices of the padroado. Francis Xavier in particular and the Jesuits in general have no direct connection to it. In fact, there was a not insignificant amount of animosity between Rome and Portugal over the authority Portugal was milking out of the padroado. Considering Xavier's conduct in his other missionary work, it would be hard to believe that someone who risked excommunication by suggesting that the moral non-Catholics of India would not be doomed to Hell (as was the interpretation current in the Catholic Church until Vatican II) would be culpable for the religious attrocities commited after his death. I agree that this article needs a thourough reworking, but the Goan Inquisition is a segment extraneous to this article.


Information obtained from: Rao, R.P. (1963) Portuguese Rule in Goa: 1510--1961. New York: Asia Publishing House. Take it as you will. Page 43: "St. Francis Xavier made it a point not only to convert the people but also destroy the idols and ancient places of worship." --Ringtail Jack 05:01, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Nice. WIll have to put that quote in the Goa Inquisition article--Dangerous-Boy 21:27, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV language and encyclopaedic language

There is something seriously amiss in the language in this article, which is frequently POV and far from encyclopaedic. For example:

  • He "sprang from an aristocratic Basque family of Navarre". Sprang??? Tabloid language that cannot be used in an encyclopaedia.

(OED, spring, verb1, sense 10: Of persons (or animals): To originate by birth or generation; to issue or descend.; nothing "tabloid" about it)134.58.253.113

  • A nobleman "He poured his heart out to Francis Xavier". More POV emotional language.
  • "Thus intrigued, Xavier baptized Anjiro." Presuming to read the emotional reaction of someone by calling them "intrigued" is completely POV.
  • "Then due to displeasure at the unchristian life and manners of the Portuguese, which impeded proselyting work, he went forth once again into the unknown Far East." That sentence states that (a) the life and manners of the Portuguese was "unchristian", a POV statement in the absence of a quotation or citation, (b) again implies motive that a neutral writer cannot imply with the unsources word "displeasure", (c) uses yet more unencyclopaedic hagiographic language with the words "went forth once again into the unknown Far East".
  • "although all examinations from the time of his death til now have been thoroughly documented, giving credence to the belief that the incorruptible body is evidence of a miracle." A neutral encylopaedia simply cannot say anything gives "credence" to belief of evidence of a miracle. It can say "the lack of decay is seen by religious believers as evidence of a miracle" because it doesn't say or imply that it is true or untrue, just that something leads some people to believe in something. That is as far as can be gone under NPOV.
  • "St.Francis Xavier accomplished a great deal of missionary work". An NPOV encyclopaedia cannot make an unsourced statement of that as fact. It has to say who says that, and give citations.
  • "He had high qualifications as missionary: he was animated with glowing zeal; he was endowed with great linguistic gifts, and his activity was marked by restless pushing forward. His efforts left a significant impression upon the missionary history of India, and by pointing out the way to East India to the Jesuits, his work is of fundamental significance with regard to the history of the propagation of Christianity in China and Japan" - complete POV from beginning to end.
  • "Since the Roman Catholic Church responded to his call, the effects of his efforts reach far beyond the Jesuit order; the entire systematic and aggressive incorporation of great masses of people on broad lines of policy by the Roman Catholic Church in modern times dates back to Xavier." editorialising that is incompatible with NPOV.

The article's language needs a complete overhaul, not to mention some citations in the text. I have suspicions from the language that there may even be some copyright violations, but I've no idea from where. Much of it doesn't read like a 21st century text written by wikipedians. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 00:55, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

A lot of the language here seems NPOV because the writers are Asians and English is not their first language. They are, however, trying to give an honest account of Xavier, who is generally held in high regard in Asia. Compare the words here to the weasel words used to say Patrick Pearse was a child molester. People, like Fear Eireann, who describe themselves as homosexual bears and who have a hang up about Catholic icons, should be more reticent to chop and change what does not fit into their narrow agendas.

[edit] Shalimar the Clown factoid?

I just started Salman Rushdie's [u]Shalimar the Clown[/u] this week and he mentions what would make an interested tidbit for this article if it is true and verifiable:

"...as once other true believers in another place, in India whose name she bore, had bitten of chunks of the cadaver of St. Francis Xavier. One piece ended up in Macao, another in Rome."

Though it is in a work of fiction, it seems like a funny thing to make up. Can anyone provide any information on this? Toko loko 21:58, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

One of the arms is on display at Il Gesù. I have a picture that I could upload. --Error 23:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

A great man, did so much for my faith.

[edit] Japanese and Asian missions

There is amazingly little here about his activities in Japan and other parts of Asia. I don't know how significant these things may be from the perspective of a biography of Xavier, a history of the Jesuits, but from the perspective of the history of Christianity in East Asia, this is absolutely crucial. Please expand on the dates and events of Xavier's activities in Japan and other parts of Asia. LordAmeth 21:20, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

The article does not indicate why St. Francis went to Asia. Interesting enough it doesn't even talk about his early work in India, after which he went to Malacca,etc. No mention is made of is appointment by the pope to work with John III, King of Portugal and his mission to evanalize the East Indies. Reading the published article no one understands why St. Francis's body was brought back to Goa, India and why it continues to reside there to this day.

[edit] Too much information...

This article's 'See also' and 'External links' sections are too long. We don't need to put in every possible possibility. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of non notable links and info. Will anyone volunteer to sort these two sections out? Same for the 'Miscellaneous' section - see WP:TRIVIA. Merbabu 15:00, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Saint Francis Xavier no was spanish!!! spain in 1512 wasn´t exist! he was navarrorum (basque)!

[edit] san francisco was not spanish!

Saint Francis Xavier no was spanish!!! spain in 1512 wasn´t exist! he was navarrorum (basque)!

[edit] Non Neutral Point of View

Comments on St. Francis Xavier's personal views on Hinduism and Brahmin interactions have been taken out of context. The letters cited are only a couple of the letters he wrote while in India. It would be imperative to look at the full composition of his letters, form the book THE LIFE AND LETTERS OF ST. FRANCIS XAVIER by SJ Henry James Coleridge. Until then please remove the undue biases.

[edit] Requested move

I have requested that this page be moved to St. Francis Xavier because the current title is missing a space. ... discospinster talk 01:27, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Uncontroversial moves don't require a discussion section. Next time, you can use the format from the header of the "uncontroversial moves" section instead of the one for "other proposals". Dekimasuよ! 02:10, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Educational institutions named after this guy

There are far too many to be listing them so haphazardly in this article. I have removed the current content and placed it below in case anyone wants to add notable pieces of it back in. Most of these schools have articles which are linked on Saint Xavier and St. Francis Xavier (disambiguation).

[edit] moved

I've moved the article back to Francis Xavier, per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Western clergy). Gentgeen 21:15, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name

Is it really neccesary to give his name in so many languages? It just seems excessive and unhelpful. Especially Chinese and Japanese. I mean this is the English Wikipedia not a multilingual version. 92.6.96.197 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 19:26, 15 March 2008 (UTC)