Talk:Fortune cookie

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[edit] Lucky Numbers

Erm... Somebody changed "lucky numbers" to "unlucky numbers", so I'm just gonna change that right back, kay?

Thanks for understanding

--Monk of the highest order 03:43, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Senbei can be both sweet and savory. Having lived in Japan, I have eaten senbei which taste just like fortune cookies. The only difference was the senbei was round and flat. This particular senbei is about the size an unfolded fortune cookie would be. I don't have any evidence but it seems that fortune cookies are made from this sweet senbei. ~~Taoshi05~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Taoshi05 (talk • [[Special:Contre:Unsigned -->

[edit] Tsujiura senbei

I gave tsujiura senbei its own paragraph, since it was jumbled up with the rest of the article previously. It seems like tsujiura is the more general category of confections with a fortune inside, while the tsujiura senbei is the one that American-Chinese fortune cookies copied the exact shape of. One of the previous authors claim tsujiura senbei is not sweet, but I couldn't confirm this myself. --69.212.100.126 23:12, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This is one of 2 theories. The other indicates that the fortune cookie was invented by Los Angeles noodle manufacturer David Jung in 1916. Both theories are just the American origin.

From the various histories I've read, the 1st origin of fortune cookies is decidedly Chinese. Sometime during the 13th and 14th century in China, during the Mongol occupation, fortune cookies were used by Chinese rebels to organize an uprising that lead to the basis of what eventually became the Ming Dynasty.

That would be Moon cakes. Rmhermen 17:30, May 28, 2004 (UTC)
Is this the one where people inserted secret messages in foods to communicate between allies? Sure, this has happened before, and Mickey Mouse has been drawn before Disney existed, but I think what is key here is that American Chinese restaurants based the shape and idea for the fortune cookies off of the traditional tsujiura senbei introduced to the US at the Golden Gate Park. --69.212.100.126 23:32, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

the bulk of this article is written as it started by a anonymous.

the link given from the Japanese origin (presume it is true) to Chinese is just the sentence that "local Chinese usurped the idea".

is there any resource to backup this article? has any one, for example, read from a book, or some or reliable place?

btw, responding to the above poster: i think Fortune Cookies shouldn't related history that's too far back. Such a concept of message in food are likely very common.

Xah Lee P0lyglut 17:43, 2004 May 23 (UTC)

[edit] Further Reading

Here's some information on Japanese & Malasian fortune cookies;

http://phuakl.tripod.com/eTHOUGHT/yeesang.htm http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fl20060416x3.html


[edit] Pictures

Aren't these pictures a little unneccessary? If anything, we should only need the opened one.

http://www.nypress.com/17/38/food/gershenson.cfm gives more detail on the David Jung story. --Robert Merkel 07:46, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Real life / internet!

Good grief. Can it be, that on Wikipedia, for a term that has both a real life and an internet meaning, we have the real life term, but NOT the internet term?! Shock! Horror! Mark Richards 03:35, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

it seems like you just added the blurb for it yourself. great.--69.212.100.126 23:12, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

The French Wiki article (fr:Fortune cookie) quotes a few sources (in English) that could be used to improve this article. - Mu 10:37, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Here's what it says on "Aphorisms and predictions in all kinds" (translation by freetranslation.com)

For reference only. Has lots of spelling mistakes, french words, etc.

"The first inserted messages in the fortunes cookies by David Jung were composed biblical quotations and of ésope maxims and of Junior Franklin. Its competitors having retorted with maxims of Confucius, certain authentic, of invented others out of nothing, Jung organisa in the years 1950 the first compilation competitions of aphorisms for cookies, exploiting thus a humorous filon promised to a big success. The years 1960 turn the appearance of the first advertising slogans, follow to them turn of political slogans, then of personalized messages for celebrate and anniversary. The years 1970 turn to bloom the aphorisms to connotation cryptique, absurd or scabreuse, to which ones s'ajoutèrent themselves in the years 1980 the amount carries happiness intend for the lottery players. All these kinds and many other meet again these days on Internet, where coexist nonspecialized sites and specialized sites in the quotations, the tasteless predictions or of bad augur, the generators of cookies for blogs. ..[5] The all, relates Donald Lau, professional editor of maxims and assistant director of the Wanton Food Company to New York, "this is of not to have the too complicated spirit. Think in sentences of ten words." [6]

Examples (translate English) originating of a fortune florilège cookies found in restaurants [7] Confucius says: You have a heart as big as the Texas. Thanks to your melodious nature, the moonlight always is to the appointment. All not step again is lost.

Examples (translate English) originating of a fortune generator cookies on Internet [8] One sees rarely monuments to the glory of a committee. The goal of the science is to do better traps to smiles; the one of the nature is to do better mice. Done you to forgive now - tomorrow you will not feel maybe more guilty. The soul would not know l'arc-en-ciel if the eyes did not know the tears."

Could someone incorporate this into the English page?

[edit] Fortune Cookie Payout

Does one incident involving numbers from a fortune cookie really deserve half an article? it's really not that interesting... 66.41.59.162 02:56, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

  • It think it is interesting enough, and probably fits here better than it would in the article on lotteries. Crypticfirefly 06:42, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Something like this really does not belong in an encyclopedia. I may remove it. --JHP 22:48, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fortune Cookie Etiquette

I question the sources for the section on this and suggest that it be removed; sounds like *someone* holds to this custom and thought it was universal, as I and many people who I know have never heard of it. It doesn't seem verifiable.

  • Perhaps it is regional? I've heard of it and so have many people I know. (No, I'm not the person who added it in the first place.) Crypticfirefly 03:55, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
I'll add my own input to this -- I, from California, have never heard of this custom. I've asked my girlfriend from Virginia about it, and she has never heard of it either. This seems to be a regional thing if Crypticfirefly's statement is so, but the region should be determined and noted in the entry if it's to stay in the article. --TouchGnome 08:41, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
* Whoever added this section was just making things up. Especially suspect was the sentence that claimed seventy percent of people use... when using statistics you have to cite source. -Taco325i 13:51, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
To clairify, the part I have heard of is the idea that one must eat the whole cookie for the fortune to come true. And I'm from the Midwest, if you are wondering. But here's a Californian source for the "custom" of eating the whole cookie: "Fortune cookie US invention" (Article by by Ellie Parvin published in a 1995 issue of the Golden Gater. Article quotes Nancy Chan of Golden Gate Fortune Cookies Co. for the idea that one must eat the entire cookie.) Crypticfirefly 03:24, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
I suggest removing the whole "Fortune cookie in popular culture" section. I don't believe the stuff in this section belongs in an encyclopedia. --JHP 22:54, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The "in your bed" meme

The "in your bed" suffix is certainly about fortune cookies. I've never heard it applied to anything else; can anyone find evidence of its being used elsewhere? My SO actually mentioned this meme on a blog post after we ate fortune cookies last night, and linked to this very page before that text was removed. The Wednesday Island 16:59, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I've commonly heard the "in bed" suffix from many people in several regions in the US. I've NEVER heard "with a battle axe" though. Is this perhaps a D&D or geek culture practice? This doesn't seem all that common to me and I think it could be clarified or removed.

I suggest removing the whole "Fortune cookie in popular culture" section. I don't believe the stuff in this section belongs in an encyclopedia. --JHP 22:54, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Grew up in Southern Australia and Nothern England, eaten heaps of chinese and cookies, never heard of this in the sheets thing. Sorry JayKeaton 11:18, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I've added a citation for the "in bed" thing, but separated out the "with a battle axe" thing so that if someone has a reference for it they can add it. Crypticfirefly 01:37, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suggested move

Since the fortune cookie is not really Chinese, I suggest that the article should not be titled "Chinese fortune cookie." I recommend that it be moved to "Fortune cookie (food)". --JHP 22:57, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Customs

I eat the paper. I know lots of people who eat the paper. My parents eat the paper. It is, by definition, a custom in my region. I just thought I would let the world know that this is indeed a part of fortune cookie culture, but every time I add this to the page, someone deletes it. Please, do not delete my change to the fortune cookie page.

Just to make it clear, that change is that eating the paper is customary in some regions.

If you want that information to stay in the article, you need to 1) specify what region you're talking about, and 2) provide some kind of reliable source which would confirm your claim. The fact that you, your parents, and "lots of people" you know eat the paper is not something we can verify. If you don't provide a source it will likely keep getting removed. Serpent-A 07:52, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Indeed - I've never heard of such a custom, and to present it as "normal" is certainly wrong. violet/riga (t) 15:16, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
I also have never heard of such a custom, but it seems very believable to me that such a custom would occur. JayKeaton 11:19, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I heard in some regions it's customary to eat the table at the restaurant as well as the cookie, paper and dishes. If you do that, it's quite sure the fortune in the cookie will come true. Specially true if the fortune says: "You will be chased by 3 angry Chinese guys with kitchen knives". Владимир И. Сува Чего? 22:09, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Boring history

Was anyone else expecting the history of the fortune cookie to read more like the exciting adventures of a Chinese general trapped in prison during the Zoixing Dynasty, and his peoples daring plan to hide secret messages to him in the customary cookies that were sent to his sell. These messages tipped him off about a secret escape plan and the Chinese general escaped, and so the custom of using these "fortunous cookies" with messages inside them is recreated 2500 years later, to this day the Chinese have remembered this honored hero with Fortune Cookies. Hehe, but just some guy in some American town thought it would be a good money spinner about 80 years ago. I prefer my version JayKeaton 11:17, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

It's just a cookie. Try going out once in a while. Joachim5000 12:41, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] World-view template

Why is this here? Fortune cookies were invented in the U.S., and are primarily an American thing... I don't really see what we can say to broaden the world-view of this article. ~ ONUnicorn (Talk / Contribs) 14:45, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

The U.S. contributes significantly to world culture. You probably think that's a bad thing, but remember that the U.S. culture is an amalgamation of cultures from every corner of the globe. Sure, it's not the fairy-tale "melting pot" but no other country contains so many diverse and relatively peaceful people together from EVERY corner of the planet. The culmination of such influences is just as much a reflection of the effectiveness of an individual community as the sum total is of the world. Joachim5000 03:26, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree. The thing should be taken off. Fortune cookies are American. --Descendall 09:13, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree as well. The "World-view" template seems a little ridiculous. If they are trying to force the issue through a mistaken belief that there is some non-American Asian ties to fortune cookies, then they are... well, mistaken. I'm Chinese-American, and when I was in China, not a single person I talked to had ever heard of fortune cookies. I'm not too sure if they even give them out in Europe. Somebody should take the tag off. 75.46.28.17 07:58, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Oh yes. The world consists of the US of A, and China. Very broad view indeed. None of the above posts seem to recognise that there are quite a few other continents on this Earth and they have fortune cookies too! --Sumple (Talk) 07:00, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
The fortune cookie is simply not available in New Zealand or Australia, I have been to a few buffet restaurants and takeaways that are frequented by Caucasians and none offers this on the table. Even across the US border, Canada's Chinese buffet restaurants don't have them either, let alone the HK Chinese migrant owned types in Toronto. So I don't think why there is such a need to add the Worldwide perspectives. Come back to me when you are able to find anywhere outside the United States of America that offers fortune cookies. --JNZ 00:17, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I live in Montreal and every single chinese restaurant here gives away fortune cookies, this is certainly not a Toronto only thing. I am pretty sure that all across the province of Quebec, all chinese restaurants have them. --Vineon 02:01, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the tip Vineon, apparently now I have got egg on my face LOL. --JNZ 11:27, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] needhanzi

I removed the {{needhanzi}} template, because fortune cookies are a foreign invention, so any Chinese name will just be a translation of the English name. If you really want to know, my dictionary translates it as 占卜餅 or fortune telling biscuit and Google translates it as 幸福餅乾 or lucky biscuit. 203.109.174.60 08:23, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I have never seen either term. Maybe next time when I walk past a Canadian-Chinese restaurant I can take a peak at the menu.
But really I don't recall it having a Chinese name myself either.—Gniw (Wing) 09:14, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
I've added a few that show up on bilingual ("Rosetta Stone") Google searches. The above two are not particularly prominent among them. Badagnani 18:50, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fortune Cookies

Fortune Cookies does not point here.

does anyone else think it should? I propose the album page be moved to Fortune Cookies (album), and Fortune Cookies be redirected here. --Sumple (Talk) 06:58, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I concur with your excellent plan. Crypticfirefly 07:32, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
done. --Sumple (Talk) 10:47, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chinese names

Okay, the thing is, the best you're going to see are probably ad-hoc translations. The translations you have there at fortune cookie are just a few combinations using synonyms of "fortune", "paper slip", "foretell", and "cookie"; using the same pattern, and using more synonyms that I can think of right now, we can come up with probably another 1000 names, and they would all be "correct". So I think it's inherently pointless to try and come up with a Chinese name for "fortune cookie", because as far as I can tell, "the" Chinese name simply doesn't exist. -- ran (talk) 04:22, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

EDIT: Googling suggests that people would translate it as either 幸運餅 xing4yun4bing3 or 籤語餅 qian1yu3bing3. Keep in mind though, that these are not authoritative names, just the names that the Chinese Wikipedia (say) might decide on after resorting to the Google test. -- ran (talk) 04:24, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unique to North America?

I live in the UK, and have had fortune cookies at every chinese restaurant I've ever been to. I have also bought bags of them in France and Italy. So it is obviously untrue that they are "unique to the United States and Canada". This may be a badly worded sentence, or it may simply be incorrect individual research, but someone should rewrite or delete it. I would, but I don't know which one should be done. - Oisin(Speak)

[edit] New article in NYT on origin of the fortune cookie

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/16/dining/16fort.html Jayavarman1 (talk) 13:06, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

More than enough text has probably been added about Japanese origins now. (Please improve this material.) But the info box now needs improving, by someone who knows Japanese. The proper Japanese terms should be added.-69.87.203.187 (talk) 16:14, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 2004 research in Japan

Yasuko Nakamachi, a researcher in Japan, has devoted years to studying historic roots there, published in 2004 as part of a Kanagawa University report.[1]

If someone is able to track down this 2004 publication, it would be good to have it properly listed as a full official reference. -69.87.203.122 (talk) 20:23, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Japanese Roots

Yasuko Nakamachi, a researcher in Japan, has devoted years to studying historic roots there, published in 2004 as part of a Kanagawa University report.[2] She traced them to centuries-old small family bakeries making obscure fortune cookie-shaped crackers by hand near a temple outside Kyoto. She has turned up many references in Japanese literature and history. In an illustration from a 1878 book of stories, “Moshiogusa Kinsei Kidan”, the apprentice appears to be grilling wafers in black irons over coals, the same way they are made in Hogyokudo and other present-day bakeries. A sign above him reads “tsujiura senbei” and next to him are tubs filled with little round shapes — the tsujiura senbei themselves. The grills contain round molds into which batter is poured, something like a small waffle iron. Little pieces of paper were folded into the cookies before they cooled. The cookies are called: tsujiura senbei (“fortune crackers”), omikuji senbei (“written fortune crackers”), and suzu senbei (“bell crackers”). In an earlier work of fiction by Tamenaga Shunsui (1790 - 1843), a woman tries to placate two other women with tsujiura senbei that contain fortunes.

The families of Japanese or Chinese immigrants in California that claim to have invented or popularized fortune cookies all date the cookie’s appearance between 1907 and 1914. A number of immigrant families in California, mostly Japanese, have laid claim to introducing or popularizing the fortune cookie. Makoto Hagiwara was a Japanese immigrant who oversaw the Japanese Tea Garden built in San Francisco’s Golden Gate Park in the 1890s. Visitors to the garden there were served fortune cookies made by a San Francisco bakery, Benkyodo. Fugetsudo and Benkyodo both have discovered their original “kata” black iron grills, almost identical to the ones that are used today in the Kyoto bakery. During the 1920s and 1930s, many Japanese immigrants in California owned chop suey restaurants, which served Americanized Chinese cuisine.[3] -69.87.199.46 (talk) 02:19, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Europe's largest fortune cookie manufacturer Fortune Cookie Co. Ltd claims that "the origins of the Fortune Cookie as we know it today were laid down by the Chinese '49ers who worked on the building of the great American railways through the Sierra Nevada into California. Work was very hard and pleasures were few in isolated camps, those hard workers had only biscuits with happy messages inside, to exchange at the Moon Festival instead of traditional cakes with happy messages, thus the FORTUNE COOKIE was born. This became something of a cottage industry and as the Chinese settled in San Francisco after the railway and the Gold Boom the custom continued." Source: http://www.fortunecookie.demon.co.uk/fhistory.html Retrieved 28/05/08 NB Several American contributors claim that Fortune Cookies are only produced in the US, but I've had Chinese meals all over Western Europe (including the UK) and I never left those restaurants without them. Cheers everybody & have a cookie on me. And remember: "Always be kind to pigeons - a statue may one day be made of you". Frank Landsman (talk) 07:43, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Canned butcher.gif

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BetacommandBot (talk) 04:48, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] what i think of fortune cookies

well there are the greatest thing that can some times help motivte you and also make you feel better about yourselves. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.31.110.219 (talk) 03:45, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Regional variations on recipe

The ingredients given in the article do not match the normal recipe for fortune cookies in the UK, which are usually dairy free. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.91.191.29 (talk) 08:28, 19 May 2008 (UTC)