Talk:First Aliyah

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[edit] Perfectly good, sourced material, summararily revoked

Someone has revoked the following edit for no good reason whatsoever - it's sourced and provides an essential 'balance' to this article.

Israeli historian Benny Morris found evidence that their motives may not have been quite what is often suggested - at [1] he writes that "...... For decades the Zionists tried to camouflage their real aspirations, for fear of angering the authorities and the Arabs. They were, however, certain of their aims and of the means needed to achieve them. Internal correspondence amongst the olim from the very beginning of the Zionist enterprise leaves little room for doubt". In his book, Morris excerpts three letters written in 1882 by these first arrivals, one of which speaks of "conquer the land .... buy, buy, buy", the other two of taking it by force.
I've removed your editorializing that "their motives may not have been quite what is often suggested " - because that is not what the subsequent quote says. I also the generic sentence ("for decades the Zionists tried to camouflage their real aspirations...") because it does not mention the First Aliya at all. I left intact the reference to the letters which are actually quoted, and th einformation that many of these immigrants subsequently left. Isarig 01:11, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
All the historical evidence we have from the people taking part in the First Aliyah was removed, piece by piece (and this has been done repeatedly). One is left wondering what part of Wikipedia intent or policy is being followed in this article. Where does it say we cannot have the words of the participants, or the commentary of historians? PalestineRemembered 09:00, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Morris says "they were certain of their aims"

I have edited this article with an extended version of the earlier material.
  1. There could be an objection of "undue weight". I believe this material can only be properly understood if the reader sees at least a portion of each of the 4 sections. I have included it "all", but the total is still only 358 words (including elipses and references and formatting). Some of this could be removed without danger to the meaning, but I trust other editors will enter into discussion before editing.
  2. I wanted to add "According to the Jewish Virtual Library, nearly half the settlers did not stay in Palestine."[1] but I am mindful of proceeding cautiously.
  3. I had an objection that "the source doesn't refer directly to them being First Aliyah immigrants". I trust other editors will consider this minor (if not trivial). The Biluim themselves spoke of "to make Aliyah", but not "First Aliyah", just as nobody spoke of Queen Elizabeth the First in 1600. I'm sure we all agree that the inclusion of historical material is essential for NPOV. I'm sure other editors will be pleased to work in a cooperative fashion and add material (and statements from historians) that is/are just as significant about the declared intention of individuals or groups amongst these first immigrants.
  4. There is a small danger that I've linked to the wrong "Peretz Smolenskin in Vienna". There is such a person (a novelist), an early Israeli nationalist in the exact right time-frame, but the article on him in WP says that he lived in Odessa.
  5. I am happy to provide a scan of the pages of the book, along with a picture of myself holding the book (as I did over Zionist political violence), but I'm not aware of a policy or guideline suggesting this is necessary or desireable in order to edit. PalestineRemembered 09:18, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I still object to the edit.
1. You have written a whole paragraph but have not addressed the undue weight concerns. The whole section you added is indeed undue weight and has little to do with the First Aliyah anyway. You may have better luck trying to add it into the main Aliyah article (and maybe not).
2. Yes, you shouldn't add this, because that would be adding material into an article to make a point (WP:POINT) and push your own POV. Verifiable information from reliable sources is necessary to create a good article, but such information alone doesn't necessarily make a good article. Undue weight, WP:POINT and POV can apply to well-sourced articles just as much as unsourced ones.
3. Maybe no one called it First Aliyah then, but the sources you provided are not from the 19th century and should therefore refer to the First Aliyah, otherwise it's generic info. Again, try in the article Aliyah.
4. No comment
5. I don't think people are disputing that the information you provided comes from the sources you provided. However, this has nothing to do with POV, WP:POINT and undue weight, which are (at least my) main concerns.
-- Ynhockey (Talk) 09:38, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
PR, you put in a reference to "Be'eri", but the reference is incomplete. It's in a multiple reference form, but there are no other references to this work and the bibliographic details have been omitted. Please add them.
Peretz Smolenskin was indeed from Odessa; but he settled in Vienna in 1868, and spent the rest of his life there (Arthur Hertzberg, The Zionist Idea, p 142) RolandR 22:56, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Ynhockey - as I wrote on PR's page in more detail, I basically agree with the undue weight objection, but I disagreed that half the settlers left is inappropriate or controversial. The same was true of Italians going to the USA at that time. (there's always a lot of people going back in such unforced migrations) I don't see how that factoid is anti-Italian or inappropriate so I think that making too much of it here is also unwise.John Z 19:03, 24 May 2007 (UTC)