Talk:Eoin MacNeill

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was No consensus to move page, per discussion below. -GTBacchus^(talk) 00:30, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Eoin MacNeill → Eoin Mac Néill — In line with WP:IMOS —Damac (talk) 19:29, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Support, for reasons outlined below.--Damac (talk) 19:30, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose, for reasons outlined below. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:50, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
• Support Wiki with the use of redirects will locate the article regardless. His position within the Gaelic League, is the clearest indication of his own preference. I really really don't like these google polls. Wiki is an educational forum, and the information should reflect that, do the majority of readers know that he used the Irish version of his name, if they use wiki, they will. --Domer48 (talk) 11:40, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
  • WP:IMOS#Correct_Irish_orthography_in_naming_people says "If someone used the Irish version of his or her name, and this enjoyed and enjoys widespread usage among English speakers, this should be reflected in Wikipedia." I don't see any evidence that the Irish version "enjoys widespread usage among English speakers". --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:10, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose. I'd have to agree with BrownHairedGirl on this. --203.220.171.83 (talk) 10:27, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose - Eoin MacNeill is the common name. EJF (talk) 16:04, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

The subject a) used the Irish form of his name and b) is widely recognised as having done so. Indeed, the National Library of Ireland catalogues him as accordingly[1], as does WorldCat, albeit without the fada,[2], and the library of the National University of Ireland, Galway[3]

• Library catalogues will reproduce his name as used on his books, and the majority of their holdings appear to be of Irish-language publications by him, so its not surprising that the Irish form was chosen for the catalogue entries. However, a google search return 6,510 hits for "Eoin MacNeill" but only 738 hits for "Eoin Mac Neill". The Oireachtas members database calls him "Eoin MacNeill"[4], and returns a "not found" both for "Eoin Mac Neill"[5] and for Eoin Mac Néill[6]. So I don't see that the Irish form "enjoys widespread usage among English speakers", per Wikipedia:IMOS#Correct_Irish_orthography_in_naming_people. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:57, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Does it really matter ? Redirects can take care of individuals' different styles of name that were used, to point to the article itself. What really matters is that the article should correctly note and explain his various styles of name, which it does. Rcbutcher (talk) 14:13, 24 December 2007 (UTC).

• I have no strong opinion here, though I am tempted to agree somewhat with Brownhairedgirl. While I don't give too much credence to google results, it does seem that most historians and biographers refer to him as "Eoin MacNeill". The use of Eoin instead of his birthname, John, already demonstrates his affinity for the Irish form, even without using the less common form of his last name. In any case, it is a pretty minor point, as the differences between the forms are too small to cause confusion (unlike the still disputed MacDermott/Mac Diarmada question). -R. fiend (talk) 18:17, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

We had the same problem a few years back when the Éamon de Valera article was named Eamon de Valera. Against considerable opposition from people who used the same arguments as R. fiend and Brownhairedgirl, the decision was eventually reached the subject's article should use the form of the name that the subject himself used. Up to that point, a Google hit produced far more hits for Eamonn de Valera. Wikipedia set the record straight, and how Éamon de Valera produces more hits. In this regard, Wikipedia has proved itself to be reliable.

The same applies with Eoin Mac Néill. That is how he wrote his name, even when the content of his correspondence was English. Eoin MacNeill/Eoin McNeill is simply the lazy way of rendering his name, a sort of half-way house between the English form of the name he was born with and the Irish form he later adopted and used daily. The lack of knowledge of fadas and Irish orthography produced the Eoin MacNeill version, which has been repeated over and over again.

On a final note: while I appreciate User:Domer48's support in this regard, I should point out that Eoin Mac Néill used this form of his name, which cannot be said for the SF and/or IRA people for which he has added contrived Irish names.--Damac (talk) 18:07, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I have not added contrived Irish names you clown, I added references! Stop being a prat. --Domer48 (talk) 18:23, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.