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Contents 1 Comments 1.1 Trebizond 1.2 Levzur 1.3 Caesar Alexius 1.4 Rusudan 1.5 Name in infobox

[edit] Comments

[edit] Trebizond

The statement that Trebizond only had "4,000" inhabitants should be corrected. Also the statement that it was an empire in name only(actually a fairly small principality, to use a West European term) should be moved to the beginning of the article.

Well you are welcome to edit the article yourself. What would you change the number to? Adam Bishop 06:34, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Could whoever authored this entry append a biliography?

[edit] Levzur

why do you keep saying Tamar was one of the "main founders" of this state? It's a state founded by the Comnenus family, fleeing the capture of Constantinople...Georgia is involved in founding it as much as the Bulgarians or the Seljuks are in founding the other exile states, wouldn't you say? Perhaps, as the anonymous poster above has asked, we should compile a bibliography for this article. Adam Bishop 23:47, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Dear Adam Bishop - 1. Alexius I and his brother David were grandsons of David the Builder and before the 1204 they lived in Georgia. Queen Tamar was a main initiator of founding of the Empire of Trebizond under the patronage of the United Georgian Kingdom; 2. About 90 % of the population of the Empire of Trebizond were Georgians (Lazs and Meskhetians). Levzur 13 Apr 2005

Ok, thanks. Adam Bishop 04:36, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Caesar Alexius

Levzur, | Gibbon says:

'The wife of Manuel fled with her infant sons and her treasure from the relentless enmity of Isaac Angelus. Fallmerayer conjectures that her arrival enabled the Greeks of that region to make head against the formidable Thamar, the Georgian queen of Teflis, p. 42. They gradually formed a dominion on the banks of the Phasis, which the distracted government of the Angeli neglected or were unable to suppress. On the capture of Constantinople by the Latins, Alexius was joined by many noble fugitives from Constantinople. He had always retained the name of Caesar. He now fixed the seat of his empire at Trebizond; but he had never abandoned his pretensions to the Byzantine throne, ch. iii. Fallmerayer appears to make out a triumphant case as to the assumption of the royal title by Alexius the First. Since the publication of M. Fallmerayer’s work, (Munchen, 1827,) M. Tafel has published, at the end of the opuscula of Eustathius, a curious chronicle of Trebizond by Michael Panaretas, (Frankfort, 1832.) It gives the succession of the emperors, and some other curious circumstances of their wars with the several Mahometan powers. - M. '

| Miller says:

'Alexios Comnenos, the founder of the strange and romantic Empire of Trebizond, was a son of Manuel and grandson of that resourceful adventurer, Andro?nikos I., who, after a series of hairbreadth escapes only possible in South-Eastern Europe, had occupied the Imperial throne, only to be murdered with the utmost savagery by the mob of Constantinople in 1185. His eldest son Manuel was blinded so brutally that he died, leaving two children, Alexios and David. Of their history between that time and the Latin conquest we know nothing. But in the same month of April in which Constantinople fell, Alexios, who had left the Imperial city for Georgia, set out thence at the head of a Georgian contingent provided by the active labour of his paternal aunt Thamar, and occupied Trebizond. The new ruler of that already famous city had much in his favour. He was only twenty-two, he was shrewd, his family was popular on the Black Sea coast, whence it had originally come, and where it had left comparatively recent memories, for in 1182 his grandfather had resided at Oinaion, the modern ?ni?, between Trebizond and Sinope. Those three places all declared for him, and while he remained cautiously in the neighbourhood of Trebizond, his dashing brother David, aided by a body of Georgians and native mercenaries, made himself master of all Paphlagonia, where was situated the ancestral castle of the Comneni at Kastamuni, and extended his power as far westward as Pontic Herakleia, the modern Erekli, well on the way to Constantinople, as ?the herald and forerunner? of Alexios.[1] The latter, in the bombastic style of Oriental majesty, styled himself Grand-Comnenos (with which we may compare the ?Great Lord? of Frankish Athens) and Emperor, and both the grandiloquent adjective and the Imperial title survived for 257 years in his dynasty?the longest, as Bessarion said, in Greek history.'

• I have not been able to find any primary or secpondary source that classifies Trebizond as subject to Georgia, although several say Tamar assisted Alexios I to secure a buffer state. Can you point me to your sources. I am almost finished the Alexios biography and I need to resolve this issue first. Certainly Alexios was declared Caesar (Kaisar) by Andronicus I before his deposition in 1185 and would have retained the title.I think this page should be reverted to my last version. What is the evidence for the demography of Trebizond? Where is the non-Georgian primary source that lists Tamar as the main founder of the state? I did not not exclude that theory in my edit. The current edit, however, presents one theory as bald fact and that is grossly inaccurate. Moreover the current edit excludes much other information in a desperate attempt to present a non-POV view. Alan 00:40, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Rusudan

(1) 'Rusudan' is an extremely common name among Georgian royal women. David the Builder, Giorgi III, Demetre I and Tamar all had daughters named Rusudan. The existence of a daughter of Tamar by that name does not preclude the existence of a sister. Tamar is commonly described as Alexius' aunt. A Georgian princess married to Alexius great grandfather would not make Tamar an aunt.

(2) I'd need a source to say that Katay was the sole link to Georgia. 'Katay' is also an extremely common royal name in Georgia. It was also the name of Alexios I Comneus of Byzantium's second wife (although the Byzantines call her 'Irene of Alania'.

(3) The Sebastocrator Isaac Comnenus, Andronicus' father, was married to a Katay of Georgia, but that makes her Alexius' great grandmother, not grandmother.

(4) Levzur, who do you say Manuel son of Andronicus of Constantinople married?

I plan on editing the article in a day or so to show both Katay and Rusudan as links to Tamar if there's no answer. Alan 23:22, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Dear friend, I'm Georgian historian. Field of my scientific activity is source studies of the history of Georgia. Tamar of Georgia was the only daughter of Giorgi III! Yes, Katay was mother of Andronicus and great grandmother of Alexius I. Rusudan, wife of Manuel Comnenus was not representative of Bagrationi family. Levzur 31 May 2005

I asked for a source. An avowal does not count, especially after some little time insisting Katay was ALexius' grandmother, not great grandmother. Moreover the Wikipedia entry for Giorgi III lists his children as Tamar and Rusudan. I seriously doubt a Comnenus would have married anyone less than a Bagration and I cannot see how Tamar can be described as Alexius' aunt if she was actually a distant cousin. Alan 02:52, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

1. In the article about Giorgi III was a misinformation. Rusudan was Giorgi's sister. In the history of Bagrationi royal dynasty of the 12th-13th centuries we know 2 Rusudan's: sister of Giorgi III and daughter of Tamar; 2. Katay was Alexius's great grandmother; 3. Main sources are following chronicles of the collection of old Georgian chronicles "Kartlis Tskhovreba": "Life of the KIng of Kings David" (David the Builder), "Life of King Giorgi" (Giorgi III), "Life of the Queen of Queens Tamar" (See: "Kartlis Tskhovreba" (vault of the Queen Anna), Edited by professor Simon Kaukhchishvili, Tbilisi, 1942, pp. 200-249). Levzur 06:20, 1 June 2005

Thanks. I'll go through them. A number of genealogical sites also report a Rusudan, daughter of Giorgi III (although one describes her as unmarried}. I'll see if we can resolve this one way or the other. Assuming Rusudan, wife of Manuel was not a Bagration, who do you say she was? Do we have any idea why Tamar is so ofen described as Alexius' aunt? We know she was not Manuel's sister. Alan 07:08, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

All the old Georgian sources (among them the Chronicle of the 2nd historian (biographer) of the Queen Tamar) confirms, that Tamar was the only daughter of Giorgi III. Some Georgian historians (as well as me) consider, that Rusudan was a representative of the Georgian noble family of Jakeli-Tsikhisjvareli (Dukes of Samtskhe-Javakheti). Tamar is described by Michael Panaretos as Alexius's aunt because she was great granddaughter of David the Builder (David's daughter Katay was great grandmother of Alexius). Levzur 02:06, 2 June 2005

[edit] Name in infobox

Is the Greek name "Βασιλεία Τραπεζοῦντος" (currently in the infobox) historically authentic? It seems implausible as a self-appellation, given the fact that they pretended they were the Byzantine Empire itself (presumably "Βασιλεία Ρωμαίων"). The article doesn't say anything about any self-appellation. If this can't be sourced, I suggest complete removal from the infobox. Boxes don't need non-English translations at all, unless they are quite notable and well-established. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:01, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I put this name as an intermediate between "Αυτοκρατορία της Τραπεζούντας" that a user used to replace "Βασίλειον της Τραπεζούντας", both of which are modern Greek names (the latter one not even one used in historiography). Now, I have not seen an explicit reference of the "Βασιλεία Τραπεζοῦντος" in contemporary historians, but they, being mostly Constantinopolitan , usually use the term "Βασιλεῦς Τραπεζοῦντος" to refer to the Komnenian rulers (but it can also be found in a few Trebizondian chroniclers as well, e.g [[[Michael Panaretos]]: Περί των της Τραπεζούντος βασιλέων). However, since the name is not sourced, we can comment it out, until a concrete source is found for the name they used (because if we leave it just blank, someone will fill it in again with something else). Cheers, Constantine ✍ 08:44, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for finding this info. I was also just looking at the Panaretos text (but in an English translation). I guess if "Βασιλεῦς Τραπεζοῦντος" is so well attested, "Βασιλεία Τραπεζοῦντος" should actually be good enough. Good job, no further objections from me. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:18, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Empire of Trebizond translates as Αuτοκρατορια and not Βασίλειον.This term is used by the 101% of the historians.I really can't understand the objection.It's anachronistic.After the fall of Constantinople in 1204 the empire fragmented into various states which have been preserved throughout history with their own distinct names like Δεσποτάτο της Ηπείρου, Δεσποτάτο του Μιστρά.This was specifically called Αυτοκρατορία της Τραπεζούντος! If it was called Βασίλειον then it would have survived in historical sources as that.--Ioannes Tzimiskes (talk) 18:34, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

The point is that the native name, as used then, was not "Αuτοκρατορία". The Byzantines did not use this term to denote their state, contrary to modern practice, which derives from the foreign historiographical conventions (just as we use the term "Byzantine", although it the "Byzantines" didn't). "Αυτοκρατορία" has been used to refer to the reign of some of the emperors by chroniclers (names escape me at the moment), but, AFAIK, not for the state, which they called "Ρωμανία", "των Ρωμαίων αρχή/κράτος", etc. To the Byzantines, either way, the term Βασιλεύς meant specifically the Byzantine Emperor (or at least anyone who claimed to be the Emperor), and was not used for any other ruler. Therefore, "Βασιλεύς" and "Αυτοκράτωρ" were more or less coterminous, and no danger of confusion existed when one spoke of the "Βασιλεύς" or its derivatives. If you can provide any sources that actually use "Αυτοκρατορία" as a reference to the state, I'll be more than happy to replace the names both here and in the BE page. Cheers, Constantine ✍ 18:50, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

In that context you are right.Thanks for clarifying.--Ioannes Tzimiskes (talk) 16:02, 8 June 2008 (UTC)