Talk:Cyberpunk derivatives

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Talk:List of literary punk genres/Archive 1

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[edit] Literary punk genre debate

I move this on to a new topic because it was getting too large and the debate was under the wrong topic for this discussion.

Anyway,Avogadro94 I believe you are referring to this statement:

Beyond the complete incoherence of this list (Chitty-Chitty Bang Bang, 1984, War of the Worlds, and a Tom Clancy book are the same genre?), it is to be noted that, at a guess, none of these works was part of any conscious literary "dieselpunk" movement. They don't even have the same level of thematic coherence that the second list of cyberpunk influences (Dick, Delaney, etc.) have. They are just a list of books that have been appropriated to the apparently virtually non-existent genre of "dieselpunk". john k 17:53, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Firstly john k refers to the literature and fictional works related to dieselpunk in this article. Fine I agree, perhaps it should be mentioned that such works are not in fact dieselpunk but have inspired and maintain certain elements existing in the dieselpunk genre n'est pas? After all in the Steampunk article they have a similar listing of Classic SF novels, inspirations for steampunk not to mention "modern steampunk" although I'm certain the majority of the works listed under that title were never debated as to whether the author did or did not relegate the genre under their writing. But this is purely all semantics of course.

Moving on... john k states that They don't even have the same level of thematic coherence that the second list of cyberpunk influences (Dick, Delaney, etc.) have. I have to say I am not quite sure what john k is trying to say here, but I'm guessing he is saying that the list of cyberpunk influences and works (Dick and Delaney etc...) have more thematic coherence to the genre then the examples given for dieselpunk - if this is in fact his belief I can only say that is conjecture based upon opinion. Frankly the list of examples given on the article are not debating whether or not they are dieselpunk but that they share the above criteria given in the first part of the arrticle which defines the term and genre. Yes I agree there is a large difference between Chitty Chitty Bang Bang! and 1984 - however both do possess sci-fi elements which have been recognised by the peers of Steampunk and those of Cyberpunk literature sub-genres as being adherent to the overall themes and world found in dieselpunk. On hindsight, yes I would agree perhaps a re-wording of the article is required in pointing this out. But then I would have glady accepted this criticism were it done in an appropiate manner, instead of simple stating: "dieselpunk is not real" or "dieselpunk should be deleted" and so on...

Now on to john k's third point: They are just a list of books that have been appropriated to the apparently virtually non-existent genre of "dieselpunk". Here is a perfect example of what I was already expressing, I can agree with john k's criticism and even in fact would go so far as understanding his perspective on the article, but the fact that he would use that as an argument to simply prove that dieselpunk is a non-existent genre is what aggravates me. The genre has been recognised, it might not have been popularised as of yet in the mainstream as Cyberpunk has, but do bare in mind Steampunk was not either, until League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, and even when Alan Moore's graphic novel and the adapted film were released the author nor the publishers never stated that this was designed under the genre of Steampunk. The fans and the rest of the world merely put two and two together. Therefore we cannot assume something does not exist simply because it has not been made mainstream, the fact that the term does however is something altogether different, the term has even been defined and it is recognised as such. I agree that a re-wording of this article should be instated to point this out and the differentiation. But again I would have rather had constructive criticism than simply accusation sof it being my POV. Piecraft 18:13, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

In that spirit Piecraft, I think you need to make a few things clearer in the list of punk genres and prevent arguments of this sort in the future. Something that would help legitimise dieselpunk to those who are unfamiliar with it would be a list of generic criteria that makes something literary punk (emphasis on technology, elements of noir, etc., etc), and then a list of criteria that differentiates dieselpunk from steam or cyber. I think a large part of the problem isn't the existance of Dieselpunk, it's the way Category:Dieselpunk was applied to almost anything that has any element of Dieselpunk. The only thing right now that would exist in the category without debate would be Children of the Sun. Having a list of things that influence or contain similar themes within the Dieselpunk entry itself is probably worthwhile, and your recent edits to make it clear that these are thematic references instead of definitely Dieselpunk are a good start. Maybe deleting Category:Dieselpunk until it's a more established genre/style and there are more specific examples of it would be appropriate. --Ccranium 19:06, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I do agree that perhaps an overhaul of all the sub-genre articles of Cyberpunk (including Steampunk) need to be re-evaluated, along with the List of cyberpunk works - you'll notice I put a mention on the Talk page of that detailed list. However, I am attempting to do so with the smallest inconvenience upon others contributing to each article. This is why I have requested for assistance from other parties who are interested in cataloguing and preserving the interests of this category i.e. punk genre or spin-off literary genres of Cyberpunk and punk culture. I would agree that the dieselpunk article needs to be re-evaluated in terms of the works of fiction it has listed, but perhaps deleting is not right action. I will begin with a complete check-up of the Dieselpunk article, along with the other related listings in other genre articles, but it would be helpful to have at least a definition for the time being referring to the genres so as people who are looking for further info on them can easily access them here. If you feel this is inadequate or wrong then I will back down of course. Piecraft 19:17, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, I was unclear. I was suggesting that the Category Dieselpunk was used to freely, but ended up just assigning this talk page to the category because I am lame. I removed the square brackets from my previous comment to clarify. --Ccranium 19:24, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Sure, I would agree to that. My only reservation is that technically we should either, delete where appropiately from or altogether delete the Steampunk category - seeing as it also has miscontrsued articles listed to be taking "part" of the genre which has never been verified - other than of course being closely related to be theme (which is the same case here). Just thought I should point this one out too so we don't simply overlook the entire picture as it stands, but I am with you and I will execute the deletion of the category for now. Piecraft 19:29, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I admit that my knowledge of dieselpunk is significantly lacking compared to my knowledge of Steampunk, but I look at the Steampunk category and don't see anything that causes me to question the categorization. This may be prejudiced, but I've spent a lot of time over the past few days searching for and reading about dieselpunk and I still don't have a good handle on what it is. I don't have a beef with the post-appropriation in general, people create in a new style or genre before a label exists all the time. I just think the category was applied a little too freely, but I think dieselpunk needs to be better described before real discussions about how categorization can work. --Ccranium 19:44, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't debate that at all. Being a follower of the genre and a fan amongst other sub-genres of Cyberpunk I am open to accept that option, (although perhaps an admin should delete it - or instead I could just as easily delete the articles listed with the category). But as to your statement that you on't see anything that causes one to question the categorization in the Steampunk category puts me to disagree with you somewhat. I know that this is an entirely differetn debate, but still it does fall into consideration when we are discussing the relevance of specific articles being listed as a particular genre. I completely follow you on what you're saying and even agree to it, only what I don't understand is why should (and I'm not trying to support the category of Dieselpunk by this) certain articles listed in the category of dieselpunk be eliminated when there are plenty in Steampunk that don't adhere to or would be considered as Steampunk? Examples:

Just to name those which I feel have no true apparent connection other than elements relating to the themes present in Steampunk (just as those I have stated within works relating to dieselpunk). I'm not saying to delete the entire category of Steampunk altogether, seeing as there are relevant works which quite clearly present themselves in supporting the genre because they are designed under the genre. However Dinotopia and the works of Jules Verne cannot be considered Steampunk in my view, seeing as the author never intended them to be so - nor is he alive or any representative of the Jules Verne association has categorised his works as such. At best they could be placed under sci-fi. But again I'm not trying to cause trouble here, I just want clarification on this, because I simply don't understand why the case of Steampunk's category is different from Dieselpunks. In any case, please know that I accept the deletion of the category, and my full cooperation in doing so. I need to leave now, so I'll have to carrry on this discussion later. On my return I resume the changes, unless someone else would rather do it. Piecraft 19:57, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

if I had a better response I'd share it. From your list I only know American McGee's Alice and 20,000 Leagues well enough to comment, and there is strong enough presense of steam-powered technology to sate my needs (the asylum you play through as Alice is driven by steam, as is the Nautilus). My beef with Dark City's inclusion in dieselpunk is that there isn't any mention of diesel-related technologies in the movie, and the *punk genres are typically defined by the names they're given. Dieselpunk and some of the other timepunk subgenres seem like they were created and named to fill in holes. The logic seems to be "If steampunk is victorian-era dystopic technological speculative fiction, and cyberpunk is futuristic dystopic technological speculative fiction, then there should be something for 20th century dystopic technological speculative fiction too", and that's where dieselpunk comes in. I recognize that it's probably unfair to pick on one subgenre at a time, but cementing and clarifying them one by one is also easier than just blizting on them all. Be aware that dieselpunk isn't going to be the only time-based punk that get scrutinised, I strongly suspect complaints with others (flinstones as any sort of literary punk seems a bit of a stretch, it's definitely a utopic universe) will be raised. Probably in part by me. I'm not saying this to be threatening or anything, but just so you aren't taken by suprise. --Ccranium 20:29, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
From your list I only know American McGee's Alice and 20,000 Leagues well enough to comment, and there is strong enough presense of steam-powered technology to sate my needs (the asylum you play through as Alice is driven by steam, as is the Nautilus).
You can hardly use the purpose of their being a form of "steam-technology" as evidence that such works of fiction are destined for Steampunk, with that argument then one could say any form of technology that is related to atomic power or petroleum-combustible engines would fit in with Dieselpunk. This is why I bring this debate up. I know for a fact that American McGee and Jules Verne have never mentioned their works as being Steampunk or even related somewhat - McGee's Alice is fanatsy related I'll give you that but I'm sure he has never stated that the game was ever intended to be steampunk with or without steampunk machines. With this way of thinking then one can't clearly criticise against the articles listed within the Dieselpunk category. Although I do in fact agree that it should be re-evaluated, however at the same time the Steampunk and even Cyberpunk categories need to be re-evaluated as well. I don't think Akira should be considered as cyberpunk seeing as there is nothing truly cybernetically related as an example...
Be aware that dieselpunk isn't going to be the only time-based punk that get scrutinised, I strongly suspect complaints with others (flinstones as any sort of literary punk seems a bit of a stretch, it's definitely a utopic universe) will be raised. Probably in part by me.
The only way I can vouch for the other sub-genres of Steampunk existing is through GURPS and other fan-related sites which have clearly laid out that their is a presence of Timepunk, within this vast category are stonepunk, bronzepunk, clockpunk and sandalpunk to name a few - these have been represented through GURPS as well as affiliations through other genres such as Steampunk and Dieselpunk. That being said I cannot provide further evidence of their notability. All I can assure is that I will go over the articles and categories and begin pruning them and will provide as much sufficient evidence of their notability and existence that I can. Piecraft 01:41, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Influences versus Works Created As X-punk

First of all, thank you Piecraft for providing your answers to john k's concerns. I appreciate the time and care that you put into your reply, and the clarifications that you recently put into the dieselpunk article. Unfortunately, my main concern still remains. Namely, that the dieselpunk genre (among others) appears to be a perceived style in search of a literary movement. With steampunk, you not only have influences, but you also have a listed body of works that are recognized as "modern steampunk" because their creators crafted them as such. With dieselpunk, there are a number of works that could be seen as precursors to works created as dieselpunk, but other than the Children of the Sun RPG (which doesn't even seem to meet the level of speculative fiction since it does not take place on Earth or an alternate Earth), there doesn't appear to be a self-styled dieselpunk literary movement. Your remark about League of Extraordinary Gentlemen and steampunk is well taken, but that work was followed by other works that in effect said "this is steampunk, as influenced by LXG." I will look for the Game Trade Magazine article that you referenced. But, it will need to not only describe what a dieselpunk literary work can be, but it should also say "'x' was written as a dieselpunk work", for a movement in search of an originally-intended work is not a movement at all, but a hope. Avogadro94 12:24, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

You'll observe there is an external link to an interview with Lewis Pollak, wherein he does relate towards the dieselpunk genre briefly.
Piecraft, I had already read that interview in its entirety. My contention is not that dieselpunk doesn't exist, but that it doesn't exist as a literary genre. It exists as a RPG genre (if it is possible for one game to make a genre), but there are no literary works ascribed to it (or many of the other "x-punks"). Indeed, that there is appears to be only one created work (encompassing RPG, literature, motion pictures, etc.) that calls itself dieselpunk makes its existence as a genre shaky at best, and marketing on the part of Lewis Pollack at worst). Therefore, without evidence that there are literary works that have been created as dieselpunk works, I cannot see how it can remain as a Literary Punk Genre. Perhaps much of the dieselpunk prose can be migrated to the Children of the Sun page. Do you understand what I am saying? Avogadro94 20:12, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Avogadro94 I will not be here for very much longer due to going off to Portugal, but let me just add that although it may be present in the game Children of the Sun, that game was written with an entire mythology and history - including the genre of Dieselpunk which was written within the story and thematic elements of the game, therefore you could refer to it as a literary genre in that sense. Yes I know that's probably a stretch, but games, like movies are written with scripts and an entire back-story. The RPG game has spurned off an entire mythology dedicated to the game which has integrated dieselpunk within it as it's major literary "genre" if you gather what I'm aiming at here. I agree it's not really a prominent literary genre just yet, but the game proves it is still a notable "genre". I will re-write the arrticle concerning the works of fiction, do not fret, I do realise it is probably to soon to dedicate the entire article as being a prominent literary genre just yet, therefore I will change these things. If you wish you may delete according to your views for now, and when I return or if I gain a connection in the Land of the Forgotten I will modify and add the altercations. Sorry but there's not much I can do right now. Piecraft 03:35, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I was asked to add my two cents so I will. I haven't taken part in many discussions so forgive me if I miss any protocols. I agree with Piecraft that DieselPunk has enough recognition certainly to exist as an article or section. Debate about the particulars should just lead to refinement of the article, not it's deletion. This goes for the other genres as well. As for separating literary and music punk genres, it seems like the whole punk section is not well organised. I found it non-obvious to get to the genres page from the main punk page. Maybe someone could find every page that related to 'punk' and get a gist of how things should break down organizationally. As far as the 'style genre' vs. 'created as genre' you could say the same about any literary work. There are plenty of written works that were only classified by the publisher for marketing reasons. Just because a trend hasn't been named yet doesn't mean that the books that started the trend or fit the same criteria can't be put in the same category. There's an easy way to make everyone happy and that's to in each category divide the list into two, one of 'created as' examples and one of 'fits the same stylistic criteria' works. That said, I also think that including "The Flintstones" under Stone Punk raises an important issue. I think although there are many creative works that are both "punk" genre and "anachronistic technology" genre, these two genres are not the same genre. Just because the Flintstones use stone age technology in way that mimics modern society does not make it 'punk', just 'anachronistic'. Perhaps there needs to be another section for anachronistic works. There seems to be an additional issue which is that of sub-punk genres in different media - literature, cinema, music, art and set design, etc. Jackdavinci 17:14, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

The point is that this entire section is absurd. You go down to some bookstore that specializes in pulp fiction, you wont find Dieselpunk or Nazipunk or crap like that. So apparently if The Shadow faces mobsters or some supervillain, he's dieselpunk. If he faces Nazis, it's Nazipunk. Fucking nonsense. Delete this crap. I cannot believe someone actually decided to include this alongside the genre.

An unsigned comment, especially by someone who isn't even trying to contribute or improve the article or section seems hardly worth taking into account, seeing as you have blatantly disrespected the editors as well as the contributors to the debate. There is no need for foul language, and last time I checked there was no section in a bookstore that was dedicated to cyberpunk or steampunk (thus your agrgument is flawes), but instead science-fiction or simply fiction. Please instead of spouting out nonsese that has no valid weight to this argument, either keep your thoughts to yourself or try to improve the way you attempt at contributing to the debate. Otherwise you will not be taken seriously here. Piecraft 14:27, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

oh spare me. this section is a DISCUSSION. everyone is entitled to his opinion. it's not right labelling an established fictional genre like pulp fiction as "disel punk" or whatever else.

Once again you are not really presenting a decent argument to go against the fact that dieselpunk is a notable and real genre. And of course it incorporates elements of Noir and Pulp because funnily enough it takes place during an alternate 30s-50s environment. Just as Steampunk incorporates Victoriana and Edwardian elements, thus the reason most of the literature of those times is considered "steampunk" and just as Cyberpunk is related to anything mostly futuristic incorporating computers. Piecraft 01:18, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
It seems to me that most of these are would-be genres lacking works written to be in that genre. "Dieselpunk" at least has ONE work (the aforementioned COTS) created explicitly as a member of that genre, but that seems to be it. "Sandalpunk" does seem to have a little use. The rest appear to be only found in GURPS and fan forums.
I personally think the rest (non cyberpunk/steampunk/dieselpunk/sandalpunk) would be assured deletions at AFD, because they have no notability or verifiability whatsoever. Dieselpunk and sandalpunk are skating on very thin ice as far as encyclopedic content. If I removed all content that's not sourced, which is most of it, there's almost nothing there.
I also believe a work should not be listed as an influence unless a reputable source can be cited for that opinion. A list of all the works a Wikipedia editor thinks are influences is original research, which is prohibited. —Matthew Brown (T:C) 06:38, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Go ahead and delete

I am tired of arguing with a bunch of ignorant people who wish to simply delete anything worth working on or developing. The purpose fot his project has become lost within the bureaucracy of it's editors. Go on your little power trips and delete everything related to the punk genre - seeing as you all seem to know much more about this, oh and let's not forget how everyone seems to love using the Net as a verifiable source hah. This is all a joke. Good luck, I quit. Piecraft 16:56, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm afraid Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and thus a place for established, verifiable concepts. What of dieselpunk isn't your own personal opinions or other editors' personal opinions and shouldn't just be a side-note in steampunk or Children of the Sun (game) is a one-paragraph dictionary definition suited for Wiktionary. Unlike some of the others, though, at least dieselpunk seems to be in a little use.
This is not - emphatically not - intended as a personal insult. Simply that the current contents of most of these articles do not make for encyclopedia articles. —Matthew Brown (T:C) 19:12, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
Ho ho ho, this is droll, truly! Leave off with this pretense at being some fool who tries to present the facts. FACT: Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia. FACT 2: Dieselpunk is a notable genre. If you want sources, perhaps you should look throughout this shabby excuse you call an encyclopedia and you will notice the majority of the articles here lack proper sources, instead being linked to articles or pages on the Net. Now I call that hypocrisy. Carry on as you will, I am not here to debate the matter, please by all means delete the bastard. Whilst you're at it delete anything else I have added - being that I know not what I am writing and am simply an idiot who decided hey it would be fun to put up fake and nonsense articles on Wikipedia SUUUUUUUUUURE! Not to mention the other contributors of my articles, they were in fact all me! That's right I bothered to sign up as countless other users to use my POV (LOVE HOW THAT IS THROWN AROUND HERE) on these false articles. </sarcasm> Piecraft 19:22, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
While a one-page listing of different RPG punk niche-genres is perhaps worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia as encyclopedic content, it does not necessarily follow that fleshing out some of these poorly-defined and un-sourced terms is "worth working on or developing". Also, if dieselpunk is a notable genre, then please provide concrete examples outside of COTS - by this I mean examples that are dieselpunk, not just items that contain elements of dieselpunk. For example, your inclusion of Appleseed as a dieselpunk item wrings false with me, as it appears to be more cyberpunk/post-apocalyptic sci-fi than anything having to deal with an alternate 30's-50's environment, or with diesel fuel.
Anonymous poster go jump in the lake, I'm not here to educate your ignorance. Appleseed is if anything NOT Cyberpunk. None of the films listed as Cyberpunk were ever intended or ever influenced by cyberpunk - get your facts straight. The reason you believe Appleseed is cyberpunk is open to interpretation and based on opinion. Cyberpunk emerged as an idea to define a modern genre of literature not a musical, cinematic, fashion or game style. So stop insinuating crap, the reason Appleseed was listed was for the same reason that those so-called cyberpunk films were listed. Now go cry. Piecraft 19:52, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
By attempting to create a series of pages describing various little-known or used -punk genres, you are in fact, here to educate my ignorance. But please, tell me, why do you believe Appleseed to be a dieselpunk movie(s)/manga? This is a quasi-utopian, post-apocalyptic future world with giant robots, cybernetic body replacement (Briarios), synthetic humans (Bioroids), anti-gravity cars, and other elements which are very much sci-fi. What part of the dieselpunk genre description do you feel fits this environment?
Sorry, no I have better things do with my life than bother explaining to a bunch of kids what is what. Go figure it out for yourselves. Then come back to me when you have the balls to think.
While you're at it do a sub-genre of alternate-history fiction speculating that Roman Catholic monks in the dark ages, as the sole repository of accumilated lore during that time, helped to kick off the industrial revolution a thousand years earlier than it did on our timeline. This would be monkpunk  ;-) Endomion 18:05, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
queue tumbleweeds... umm not funny Endomion...
well ... actually i think i can name an example of monkpunk: The Name of the Rose by Umberto Eco, where contemporary thinking is done in the middle ages. Crimson Rivers II: Angels of the Apocalypse is another candidate but, yes, the label was invented right here and its too early to include. gbrandt 14:46, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I'm sorry to see this list has been destroyed

It looks like it is too late to aid Piecraft in the destruction of pages and lists relating to obscure punk genres. Actually, i came back to the punk genres pages to look up the name of a recent dieselpunk manga featuring a certain kind of wingless airplanes run with diesel motors. But now, i see that the Google-testers have again removed valuable knowledge from Wikipedia that is hard to find elsewhere (and not to be found on Google in 2 seconds). gbrandt 13:45, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other literary -punk genres

It seems to me that I've seen fairypunk and cowpunk mentioned. Not sure about the first one, but the horror/western anthology Razored Saddles mentions cowpunk. Шизомби 18:06, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Find a source, and cite it. What I and others objected to was the almost complete lack of sources and of evidence showing these terms were actually in widespread use. The articles were largely User:Piecraft and others' personal opinions, and that's not what Wikipedia articles are supposed to be (see our No original research, Verifiability, and Cite sources policies). There are an awful lot of "literary genres" that are not "real" in the sense of having any currency outside a certain subset of Internet fandom. —Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 18:14, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
I'll look. I've got RS somewhere. Шизомби 18:19, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
  • "cowpunk" is already the name of a musical genre of punk, related to psychobilly. Cyanid 12:16, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I consider my comic Agent Smoke (no link, it's basically badly drawn porn XD), which is set in the 2060's but mostly looks like it's from between the 1920's and 1960's (ie art deco buildings, airships, two tone cars with fins and whitewall tyres) to be "Internal Combustion Punk". Buut i don't suppose an obscure webcomic has enough notability to go on here, in fact i haven't even used that phrase on the site itself yet...Felneymike 13:36, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge into Punk literature?

There's a newer page that was created earlier this year for punk literature. A good deal of it is an expansion of what was already here, minus a few details that that article could certainly use. Since both pages are essentially talking about one topic, I'd like to propose that this page be merged into that article, and maybe have this page redirect to that one. Any thoughts? -- H·G (words/works) 06:21, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree Pictureuploader 10:59, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
For sure. I'd rather this not be a list in that article at all, but rather prose. Also, there should be kept a distinction between literature producted by punks and genres named after the punk movement in the punk literature article. Ecto 20:38, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure that's such a great idea. While the page has evolved since then, this page was started in order to separate the science fiction/fantasy movements from punk music and the punk subculture. (see List of musical punk genres). Converting the article to prose (and possibly renaming it) would be a positive change, but as far as I know, the two concepts are quite different and should not be conflated. - EurekaLott 03:48, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I would have to agree with EurekaLott. While these genres compound names including the word "punk", they are not necessarily a subset of punk literature as defined in that article. It's apples and oranges.Bjones 14:12, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Keep Two different things. (Emperor 23:00, 10 March 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Merging and expanding

We currentlly have a recreated clockpunk and a section on other forms of Steampunk with a dieslepunk, all of which should probably be moved here. Possibly have the "other forms" section here with various X-punk subheadings. This would help keep everything in one place and avoid the cycles of deletion and removal that could happen (and have done as Clockpunk has been deleted once). If it seems like a good idea I'll throw out the tags and get things moving. (Emperor 23:00, 10 March 2007 (UTC))

I may be new to this discussion (sorry I missed all the fun), but I agree with Emperor's concept. A listing for the various -punk speculative fiction genres would be nice, regardless of their widespread use or not. I dare say that Clockpunk (also known as Springpunk) has become more widespread, with folks like BoingBoing and Warren Ellis mentioning them. To me, wikipedia works best as a true resource, allowing even emerging terms and thoughts a place to be defined. Nick Curtis 13:54, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spacepunk?

I'm not even slightly clear what Spacepunk is. Flash Gordon, the example given, is just good old-fashioned pulp SF. Deiselpunk likewise. And I'm not convinced by "Mannerpunk"; it seems to me that the genteel "fantasy of manners" is one end of a scale that has anything-punk at the other end. There's got to be a bit of dystopia in a -punk genre, surely? Daibhid C 23:16, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Decopunk

In the past few years, there have been movies and games in which Art Deco has been the main design aesthetic. I realize Sky Captain has been placed in the Dieselpunk category, but I would argue that the main thing that defines the look of the movie is the application of Art Deco as the artistic theme. The same with the game BioShock. Dieselpunk just doesn't capture the spirit of these artistic efforts. I started using the term "Decopunk" to describe these movies and I think it fits the look much better.Thresher 19:45, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Sometimes it's like banging your head against a brick wall. Decopunk?!? Bioshock is a computer game with a look taken from the Art Deco movement. The background to the game says the community started in 1946 (which is after the Deco movement anyway). Comparably it's a similar style to Sky Captain, because they're both Pulp. At best they're both Alternate history. As far as I've seen Bioshock is a) a one off, and b) a computer game and thus not a literary genre. Is The Phantom Dieselpunk now? ~ Brother William (talk) 10:40, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Different forms of punk

We must come to a conclusion on which forms of punk are verifiable and valid. As of now, the entire article has no citations and preference cannot be given to one form of punk or the other over personal preferences. Everyone please realize that this is an encyclopedia and must be treated as such. Other editors, please discuss with me so we can improve this article --Banime (talk) 20:14, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

If by improving the article you mean adding unsourced nonsense, you are barking up the wrong tree. This article needs a lot of work, certainly, not least of which would be adding references, but all of the genres listed in the article at least have their own articles---which are, to one degree or another, referenced. The article is not helped, though, by adding information that cannot be referenced, and would not meet standards of notability and verifiability if an independent article was created. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 23:44, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Very well, however the term Stonepunk is definitely verifiable as it is even mentioned again later in the article. I will add that one back on until someone disproves it later, however, it is almost common knowledge that the Flintstones is of this variety of punk. The weedpunk article will remain removed for the time being. Anyone else have other thoughts? --Banime (talk) 00:34, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Other thoughts? Yes — don't ask people to try to spend their time proving a negative.
Please read Wikipedia:Verifiability, which says clearly "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material."
So it is up to you to prove, through references in reliable sources, that stonepunk exists as a notable subgenre of punk. Unless those references are provided, then it should be removed. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:52, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm a little confused. The Flintstones was a children's cartoon about cavemen that had analogs of modern inventions made of rocks and dinosaurs and so forth. Where is the "punk" in that? What is missing from all this is some explanation of why the punk suffix is added to all these tiny subgenres. Simply stating that something is "almost common knowledge" does not help. Cyberpunk was so called because it was speculative fiction with cybernetics and a bleak worldview featured in it, hence the "punkish" character of the protagonist in almost every work in the genre. I just don't see that when I look at Fred and Barney, their world is bright and sunny, and everything always works out in the end. Bottom line is that there don't seem to be verifiable sources for most of what is on this page.Beeblbrox (talk) 21:30, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Stonepunk is, well, bunk. It is not a serious definition, hence its removal from the article. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 21:43, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merge proposal

I suggest that Elfpunk and Mythpunk both be merged into this article. The two articles are stubs (in the case of Elfpunk, a puny stub at that, and stuck with a notability tag), and we would be better served by merging them here, and thereby bulking up this article, than having two little-attended stubs out there. Similarly, there is no article for Mannerpunk, the subgenre of which Elfpunk and Mythpunk are sub-subgenres, and Mannerpunk redirects to Fantasy of manners, so I suggest that a subsection be created here to do deal with that whole class of speculative fiction. Thoughts? ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 03:29, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree --Banime (talk) 04:10, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree, though in the merge, the content should also be reduced as they appear to be boarderline neologisms. -Verdatum (talk) 10:04, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, borderline, but coming into wider use. But, certainly, some of these terms are not well-defined, and sound a bit silly. Still, better to deal with all in one place, and improve it as we can. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 19:36, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Support merge - if the OR was removed from those articles, they would simply be one-or two-line stubs. No problem splitting them out again later if they outgrow this article. скоморохъ 23:59, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
That was precisely my thought. If the usage of those terms spreads, in reputable sources, expansion and splitting may become necessary. Methinks that will be a long ways off. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 02:13, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Hearing no objections, I will procede with the merger. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 23:27, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

nice jobon the merger, but I'm not sure the "promotion" of Dieselpunk is the right move, considering all efforts to verify it as an established genre have failed to produce appropriate sources...Beeblbrox (talk) 00:42, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Chymicalpunk"?

Anyone ever heard of this one? It was brought up in discussion quite some time back on Talk:Steampunk and I was wondering if anyone had seen term in any kind of widespread use. I myself have not, and a Google search brought very few results. Would it be worthy of mentioning in this article as one of the many "medieval steampunk" varieties? ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 17:58, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Problems

So, my attempt to make this "literary" article stick to literature were reverted. GURPS is in no way a work of literature, it is an instruction manual for role playing. Hollywood movies and anime programs are likewise not considered literature. Graphic novels might qualify, but generally literature refers to a written work of prose, poetry, fiction or non-fiction. This page has some serious issues, as anyone can see from all the above debate, and if it is expected to be taken seriously major revisions are in order.Beeblbrox (talk) 03:12, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I might be willing to argue about GURPS, as role playing guides generally contain short works of original fiction to establish the universe, but I think you raise a valid point. I think it's best to have a single point of discussion for all of these punk-genres, so perhaps a move to Fictional punk genres would be a possible solution? -Verdatum (talk) 15:25, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I was thinking yesterday of suggesting just such a page move, Verdatum. I want to do some checking just to make sure we are in line with other similar articles, but some sort of page move would be in order. And, right now, whilst the page is undergoing some major changes, would be the best time to do it. Let's get some other people involved in the conversation before we do anything, though. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 16:17, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
The connotation of "fictional punk genres" is nonexistent musical genres, rather than actual literary genres. The current title is at least accurate, although it is narrowly defined. I suggest consulting editors experienced with naming conventions and disambiguation, and if a suitable page title cannot be agreed upon, following Beeblbrox's origanl suggestion of limiting the article's scope to literature. скоморохъ 17:14, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
By my count, there are currently four references in the text to "non-literary" works: 1 movie, 1 video game, and 2 role-playing games. If these are removed, I do not suppose the article is hurt terribly by the loss. However, I do feel that these are legitimate examples, and I would prefer to leave them in. The question, then, is what sort of renaming is possible that sufficiently broadens the scope of the article. As скоморохъ has correctly stated "fictional punk genres" gives the wrong connotation. So, any other ideas? ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 17:46, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
"Punk fiction genres" is unambiguous but perhaps clumsy and ungrammatical. Does anyone have a sci-fi encyclopedia handy? There must be some pre-existing convention. I agree that films, video games etc. are legitimately classified as -punk.скоморохъ 22:01, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, that title could work. As you say, clumsy and ungrammatical, but at least accurate. I will try to remember to look for this at the library tomorrow, and see if there is an already-existing term. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 22:58, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Going back to the issue of GURPS, the real problem there is that all the article tells us is that GURPS suggested that these genres could exist, but if they don't actually exist, they should be left out entirely.Beeblbrox (talk) 02:52, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

ok it's been long enough, I does not look like the page is still undergoing major changes, and no one seems to have anything to say about the concern I expressed above, so I am going to remove the tag and make some changes. Beeblbrox (talk) 23:20, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
I spent some time reading the guidelines for naming conventions, but I didn't find anything to help settle the issue of the article title. Cyberpunk in particular is a genre that exists in literature and film and anime, etc, and I do see the point that the article may be hurt if we remove any reference to a non-written work. "Punk fiction genres" is probably as close as we are going to get to a definitive title. Beeblbrox (talk) 21:12, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
I have been doing some research on this issue, and I believe скоморохъ has been as well. But, I have found nothing at all definitive in any sci-fi publication on naming conventions. The fact is that most of these genres and subgenres are still too new to have received any but the most cursory attention in the mainstream sci-fi community. So, we are going to have to come up with something on our own, I guess. What about "Sci-fi punk genres," since we are talking about subgenres of sci-fi, after all? ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 22:54, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Name

I have listed our naming problem here to try and get some outside input. Beeblbrox (talk) 00:55, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Cyberpunk derivatives or Cyberpunk-derived genres would be somewhat less WP:NEOish, I think. This page is probably the best you can find on this topic, and it uses the term "derivatives".--Pharos (talk) 17:17, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Cyberpunk derivatives might work. Certainly, it is probably the best idea that has been floated yet. Thanks, as well, for the book link, that is very helpful. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 17:38, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Yes it has been a struggle to come up with a proper name for this entry. My main concerns with "Cyberpunk derivatives" is that this could be taken to mean postcyberpunk rather than things that played on the naming convention. That is why I tend to lean towards something along the lines of "Prefix-punk subgenres" or "X-punk subgenres" (the former contrasting with "suffix-core" like darkcore, doomcore, etc., the latter where X = steam, clock, sandal, splatter, etc.). Whatever we decide what I am 100% on is this does need moving. (Emperor (talk) 16:42, 3 April 2008 (UTC))
We are all in agreement about the need for a move to a new name, Emperor. This discussion has gone on for so long, I have despaired of ever finding any agreement. I agree with your concern about "Cyberpunk derivatives" as leading to an incorrect assumption. Another suggestion was made at some point, but I cannot now remember what it was. Let's endeavour to reach a conclusion soon, yes? ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 16:52, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Well that is what I was getting at - move it to "Cyberpunk derivatives." If someone comes up with a better name then we can always move it again. The important thing is not where we move it to, just that we do. If there are complaints or confusion about "Cyberpunk derivatives" then we can return to the naming question. (Emperor (talk) 18:12, 3 April 2008 (UTC))
Feel free to move it, sir. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 02:32, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I hope you don't mind I have taken it on myself to move this, because I was getting a little antsy. I've also rewritten the intro.--Pharos (talk) 04:14, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Clean-up

Updated the article and removed some ambiguous references in the process. I omitted "Mannerpunk" altogether which cited no references or even example works. I added a "citation needed" to "Mythpunk" which should be removed if no references are at all available. Ottens (talk) 15:28, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks that is a real improvement. I've added {{main}} and scooped up the last version of clockpunk before it was deleted (although that will need a tidy itself) and things are looking a lot more solid. I think what we need to do is reference the origin of the names and make sure these aren't part of any prefix-punk games and/or a "hey this sounds like a great idea for something which already exits/no one has ever bothered naming a sub-genre for." (Emperor (talk) 16:34, 3 April 2008 (UTC))

I applaud the new format and the moving to this new location! Ottens (talk) 14:24, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Magepunk

I've never heard of this. It would seem this role-play game is really the only work of fiction that fits the description of the genre perfectly, so I wonder: is it notable? Is there any *other* reference to this "magepunk"? Ottens (talk) 18:42, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

|I removed the OR "examples". But after a websearch, i got rid of the whole entry. Could only find non-notable blogs or forums, and even there it's use was neologistic.Yobmod (talk) 09:09, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

" Magepunk is a current of high fantasy set in worlds similar to other Cyberpunk sub-genres exept that magic substitutes tecnology. Many are set roughly at an age similar to ours (chonologically) but advances in tecnology have been dwarfed by advances in magic.[citation needed]"

[edit] Merger proposal

I'm proposing merging the Cyberprep stub to here (and the fashion part to cyberpunk fashion). It is entirely defined in opposition to cyberpunk, so is a derivative, and there is very little to say about it, and only one source (GURPS again). Maybe it is even only important enough as a mention as a type of post-cyberpunk? Yobmod (talk) 13:06, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Agreed and indeed. Seems more postcyberpunk than cyberpunk. Perhaps it ought to be considered a derivative of postcyberpunk? Ottens (talk) 15:12, 19 May 2008 (UTC)