Talk:Cyberpunk/Archive 1

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

DO NOT EDIT OR POST REPLIES TO THIS PAGE. THIS PAGE IS AN ARCHIVE.

This archive page covers approximately the dates between August 2004 and November 2005, basically the material posted before the article Cyberpunk made FA.

Post replies to the main talk page, copying or summarizing the section you are replying to if necessary.

Please add new archivals to Talk:Cyberpunk/Archive02. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.) Thank you. Anville 14:45, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Contents

Old talk

The page repeats itself about four times...just thought you should know.

STFU OR I'LL PUNK YOU! - --Cyberman 03:49, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

How about adding the TV mini-series Wild Palms to the TV series section?

Can we list some cyberpunk films, like a laundry list, as can be found on the Steampunk page?

Like:

Bladerunnner (1982) The Matrix (1999) Minority Report (2003) ... ... ...?

How does this sound to you guys?

  • Sounds good to me, go for it! PMC 02:54, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Would Tad Williams' Otherland series be considered Cyberpunk?

--Mr Bound 21:27, Oct 27, 2004 (UTC)

Just noticed Serial Experiments Lain has been added to the list of films - is this correct? The main entry doesn't mention a film, and an IMDB search gives this entry - makomk 14:40, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, that doesn't soung good. Also because it's already listed down as a TV show entry. I'll remove it from the list of films. – Kaonashi 15:50, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

You people are going to make me see I, Robot, just to decide whether it's truly cyberpunk or not. (I was waiting until it came out on DivX, see.) As far as the book is concerned, though, I could make a serious case that it is classic postcyberpunk: the main characters are not alienated loners or betaphenethylamine addicts, the megacorp is not entirely evil, etc.

Anville 18:37, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I have read Asimov's robot histories, and while they are enjoyable and also defining they are not cyberpunk or even post-cyberpunk. Rather Asimov was an exponent for the grander space operas (ref. Foundation Trilogy), one of the subgenres that the Cyberpunk Movement declared dead in their zine Cheap Truth.

(As a note, I hated I, Robot the movie) It has a vague cyberpunk feel to it, with the machines sort of taking over, but I wouldn't list it here as a true cyberpunk film. There's...well, the whole robots thing. Not many CP books *I've* read have robots all over. As well it has more of a nicer view of everything, more utopian than typical cyberpunk dystopia. PMC 01:52, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Why were the Matrix films removed? Terminator? It does involve a compnay who eneds up taking over the world with it's technology (and then loses control...)Gnrlotto

Matrix should be in there, they're way cyberpunk. Terminator I've never seen, so I won't argue. And as for I, Robot...I dunno, I just didn't get that overt cyberpunk "feel" from it. PMC 00:39, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The discussion about whether a work is "cyberpunk" or not is way too subjective, and therefore it'll be always full of bias. It's a matter of opinion, folks. You can't say what is and what's not. What we can do is to present the reader a selection of works that could be seen as cyberpunk. An attempt. That's as much as anyone can do about that part in the article.

You want my opinion, though? I haven't seen I, Robot, but I think that it should be listed there, along with the Matrix and the Terminator trilogies, which I've seen. Just my opinion. – Kaonashi 01:39, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I edited the article a bit, trying to improve the listings parts. I think it sounds better now. – Kaonashi 02:04, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Members of the original Cyberpunk movement gave various definitions of cyberpunk, two of the more well knmown are "high tech low life" and "bohemia with computers". Under that definition the Matrix could be fitted in. If you widen the scope to what recognised cyberpunk authors have greated you also get the Alien movie that Gibson wrote a script entry for (only very little was in the final movie), The Crow (usually declared a Goth epic with goth author John Shirley as one of the script writers and who is also a cyberpunk author) and Dark City (again with John Shirley writing script and because it was a source of inspiration (even props) for Matrix)

  • Alien, if you're talking about the famed Alien series, I would outright deny that that's cyberpunk. Cyberpunk generally avoids aliens and close encounters of the nth kind. That's more horror sci-fi...I would call it space opera before cyberpunk.
  • The Crow? I've seen it. Not a chance in hell is that cyberpunk. It's goth to the core, and not very *good* goth either. Again, the overt supernatural element and the lack of technology (The Crow: Hacking The Net does not seem like a likely sequel) bar it from cyberpunk.
  • Dark City I have never seen, and so I will leave that one alone.

[[User:Premeditated Chaos|PMC]] 23:51, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

OK, back again, sorry to be so slow in following up our discussion. First off, I do believe Alien is cyberpunk. The operations is under the control of Weyland Yutani, a powerful multinational that deals in high tech weapon system and seem to be above or at least consider themselves above the law. Sure it is horror but why not? The Cyberpunk Movement wanted to change and refresh the genre so there is no need to pideonhole as either horror or cyberpunk. To me it is both. The fact that William Gibson wrote a script to the third movie is an added bonus. As for The Crow I can agree it is not cyberpunk; I offered it as an example where the stance "cyberpunk is what cyberpunk authors create" does not always hold water. Here, it seems, we can agree. Dark City is I believe cyberpunk. rather than starting yet another reedit war I hope to build some consensus in here before adding it to the article itself. Most important of all is that cyberpunk is not formulaic. In fact aliens of sorts is hinted as in Gibson's Hinterlands. John Shirley has a major horror streak. Vernor Vinge has hints of space opera grandeur and scale. Freejack has no network hacking nor cyberspace. Examples and counterexamples are numerous.

  • shrug* This isn't going to get anywhere with just our opinions. Dark City I've never seen, and I won't argue about it. I'll leave that to people who have seen it. Although, having seen it cited multiple times as inspiration for The Matrix, I'd be inclined to include it in the article. The Crow we've agreed against, so that's settled. Now, Alien (and possibly all sequels?)...it seems to be listed on Project Cyberpunk [1]. And [2] declares that it has inklings of cyberpunk. And finally, [3] the Alt.Cyberpunk FAQ itself says that Alien was at least marginally cyberpunk. Right then, I give. But could we include a note with it that says "marginally" or "disputed" or something? [[User:Premeditated Chaos|PMC]] 22:52, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)


What's up with the shrugging? And obviously opinions are not suffficient, were you to look closer you would notice I do make a case for what I believe, relating to stylistic things (Japanese elements/companies), contents (powerful multinational companies above the law) and more. Furthermore I point out the fuzzy areas of cyberpunk. Please read a little closer, I am not just rambling drunkedly along the Wikipedia.

I have followed news:alt.cyberpunk for a couple of years, rescanned articles on the topic of cyberpunk movies and it seems clear that while some movies are agreed to be cyberpunk (like Blade Runner), others are not (including the Matrix trilogy). Nevertheless the lists are long. To keep this article managable in size, not dominated in length by this list item and also potential edit wars, I am proposing to make a new Wikipedia article on cyberpunk media

  • movies, TV series (such as Max Headroom), anime, manga (possibly Lain)
  • sorted by date
  • for each entry argue why it is cyberpunk, determined on at least one of
    • content
    • style

Agreed?

Absolutely. That's a great idea. Cyberpunk in media perhaps, or straight Cyberpunk media. Although I think we should also include arguments against each entry, for balance. Also, when you make the article, I'd consider putting a note on the talk page saying that entries should include a reasonable argument for being cyberpunk or they risk being removed. Just so that we don't have little sci-fi kiddies haphazardly adding anything with a corporation or an anti-hero in it. I definitely think a separate article would be great though. [[User:Premeditated Chaos|PMC]] 04:52, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

John Varley

Maybe the story "Press ENTER" by John Varley should be added.

Book list overhaul

The list of cyberpunk books is going to get long, if all of them are listed. Perhaps it would be better to list cyberpunk authors and specific books by particular authors if the rest of their works don't fit the genre. Another option might include pushing the book (and movie and tv) lists onto a new page(cyberpunk media, or somesuch). Steven.karas 17:38, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Until said cyberpunk media entry gets created, why not start posting the book list here, now? Might as well start providing book names to feed a new entry, if ever one gets created. I must say, however, that having it all in one entry (as it is currently) makes for a richer experience + wealth of knowledge in one place. - Zenorbital 06:52, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It should also be mentioned that Total Recall, cyberpunk or not (I don't personally qaulify it as such) was NOT written by Phillip K. Dick in the incarnation which was made into the film. That particular version of the story was written by Piers Anthony as an adaptation of Dick's story "We'll Remember It for You Wholesale." This is my first edit so I apologize beforehand for any syntax errors or the like. -Anonymous. 11:55, 1 Dec 2005

cyberpunk and anime

Cyberpunk took from the ideas of anime? I think it's the other way around. Ninjas, samurais and cyborgs can certainly come from other sources than just anime. While several anime films and TV shows and even manga & comics vividly & greatly illustrate cyberpunk themes and visual styles, I have yet to find an example of it being a source for cyberpunk authors (especially prior to 1984). An example would be greatly appreciated. Otherwise, the 1st and 5th paragraphs of the Style section need to be altered. Comments? - Zenorbital 08:05, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Well, prior to the late 80's, various anime and manga productions were in no doubt influenced by the various cyberpunk literary works and films that existed. After the works of Masamune Shirow and his contemporaries were exported outside of Japan, it became a give and take between the various mediums. However, for material existing before 1990, you are correct. --Paul Soth 16:52, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
give and take, I like that. Zenorbital 20:57, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Consider that cyborgs and various cyberpunk themes have been appearing in anime since the early 1960s, such as the classic 8-Man, from 1963. 8-Man is one of the original animes, about a human-turned-cyborg after being mortally wounded. In classic cyberpunk style, he takes up an endless fight against the people of the lawless world he lives in. This being about two decades before the term 'cyberpunk' was coined for this sort of thing. Also consider some of the obvious Japanese influence on the works of cyberpunk authors (apart from simply including ninja), such as in Idoru (The Japanese-Engrish of "Idol.") Seems fair to me to say that anime and cyberpunk have both influenced each other pretty heavily, for as long as each have been around.
--Kasha.re 22:45, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for pointing out 8-Man. It's very interesting to find instances of cyborgs from as far back as 1963. The term cyborg was coined in 1960 by 2 Americans, with an eye towards space-travel. But in terms of cyberpunk I must ask: Did this influence the birth of cyberpunk? My original aim with this question was to determine how much of an influence anime had at the start of this cyberpunk period (1984 and before). Idoru came out in 1996, well after the give and take between anime and cyberpunk began in the late-80s, so that part is true. I must note that "an endless fight against the... lawless" is not a cyberpunk theme, it is quite the opposite.
The flow of Japanese pop-culture to the U.S. during the 1960s-70s was a slow drip compared to the fire hose we have now. It is highly doubtful that 8-Man was viewed by any of the handful of writers who started this subgenre. According to interviews of some key players here (notably Gibson and Sterling) they make little or no reference to anime as references. As far as Chiba City goes in Neuromancer, the name was obtained from a calendar that Gibson had. He had no knowledge of Japan proper and never researched it. In fact, it was blind luck that it was a city by the bay as he described it in the book, since he made up that detail as he was writing. Gibson did meet a lot of Japanese students in Vancouver when he was writing, however.
As far as cyborgs go, one could point out The Six Million Dollar Man, or any of a host of comic book characters as more ready influences to the average American growing up in the 1960s-70s. It can be argued that a cyborg and his abilities is nothing more than Iron Man, but with the suit on the inside. We must be very careful not to get too overzealous in associating some art forms we really like to others we love, just to associate the two (even though it's fun). Sure, the bionic man is a cyborg, but we don't classify him as a cyberpunk, do we?
Aside from all that, this brings up a very interesting point. This article lacks any real Themes or Influences sections. There are bits and pieces lying around, but they need to be coalesced. 8-Man, in this sense, might be a "precursor". After a Themes section is in place, maybe another dialogue will start to debate whether a particular book/film/manga/etc is cyberpunk or not. That'll be a long one... Zenorbital 23:13, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
That sounds like a good idea.. and while I realism that "fighting lawlessness" isn't exactly a cyberpunk theme, usually dealing more in fighting large corporations which have become the law instead.. I'd still argue 8-Man to be cyberpunk, because of the gritty, film noir approach. Surely The Six Million dollar man wouldn't count as a cuberpunk, because it didn't have the 'darker', dystopian themes involved. 8-Man does.
--'Kash 23:21, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Reorganization

I have moved the lists of cyberpunk works to a new page, called List of cyberpunk works. (I spent a long time thinking up that name, I'll have you know.) This is on the theory that right now, the main article needs coherent sections on Themes, History and so forth more than it needs a catalog of "all the works various random people think are cyberpunk". I believe that having our definitions set out in a clear and comprehensible way will make the debates over including particular works much easier to resolve.

I have also merged the "Further developments" material into the "History" section, for reasons which should be apparent enough.

It's a long way from FA status, people, but such an achievement is not impossible.

Anville 18:05, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Beware increasingly broad scope

Recent edit included Grand Theft Auto II as a "cyberpunk videogame." Not a chance. This article should really focus on Cyberpunk as a genre instead of trying to include everything with even the slightest bit of Cyberpunk flavor. -Bryant.cutler 15:45, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Amen to that. On a similar note, I just nixed the following paragraph:
The cyberpunk subculture is a group of rebellious and technology loving people who choose to use cyberpunk as a label. They typically are hackers, crackers, and various other geeky sorts of people. Drug use is popular among some cyberpunks (particularly ravers), but not all. The cyberpunk subculture is also known for anarchist leanings.
Why? Several reasons. First, without good source citation, this sort of broad statement is at best echoing stereotypes. It is not a good idea to lump "hackers" and "crackers"—two noticeably distinct groups—into the "geek" box; I know a fair number of hackers who can pass for jocks in a dim light, particularly if you catch them upside an Alaskan glacier. Re-read the Jargon File and Piled Higher and Deeper ([4], [5], [6]). Second, we already have a discussion of cyberpunk "subculture", down where it belongs, after the history of the SF movement. Besides which, we've got a separate article for cyberpunk "fashion".
Anville 18:58, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Band list and Nine Inch Nails

I had removed Nine Inch Nails from the list of cyberpunk bands, and User:Aeonite put it back, citing "numerous cyber elements and imagery in music: The Becoming "I beat my machine, it's inside of me", WISH video's Thunderdome images, etc." OK. Sounds fine to me. However, this makes me think that the band list should live at List of cyberpunk works, for the same reason that the books and movies are now listed there instead of in the main article.

How about a paragraph detailing the cyberpunk elements of NiN? That would certainly be more meaningful than a bullet point, anyway, and it would put the electrofunk discussion in a wider context.

Anville 17:21, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Replies to hidden queries

William Gibson's prose, too dense for novice or casual readers, was more appealing to academics...

This is a direct paraphrase of the lecture notes cited in the footnote, which the article had previously quoted directly. See the revision as of 10:30, 16 September 2005.

Anville 08:46, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Quotation style

I'm un-italicizing the quotations, as per the Manual of style. Most of these quotations include emphasized text of their own (book titles, etc.), so even disregarding the Manual's instructions, I think these quotations read more smoothly when they are not fully italicized throughout.

Anville 09:09, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Results of FAC

Greetings, programs! Well, the article got a few support votes, but it didn't make FA. Nevertheless, the nomination attracted several very insightful comments, so the process was quite worthwhile. For convenience, I've summarized the standing objections, omitting those which have been addressed but weren't struck out of the FAC subpage.

  • No picture in the lead, and none of the images in the article at present seem adequate.
Ah, if only I could invent a rationale for using "Sony Center At Night"! Anville 13:04, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Okay, I caved to my internal pressure. Anville 12:46, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
  • "Chronological soup", in zippedmartin's phrase — the later sections, in particular, are still more like lists than actual discursive prose. The "Games" section needs particular work in this regard. I'm not a game-player by nature — the Atari 400 was about my speed — so I have no real judgment whether or not the games we discuss now are the "right" ones to include.
  • Odd bits of POV or Original Research here and there (probably as much my fault as anybody's). The "Film and TV" section should be edited in this regard. Specifically, who has said that Ghost in the Shell: SAC is postcyberpunk rather than "classic"? (I'd agree with that statement, myself, if we accept the "postcyberpunk" category as a useful thing, but I have other avenues for my personal opinions.)
Results of Googling "'stand alone complex' cyberpunk": [7] plus a few dozen WP mirrors. Anville 12:17, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
And while I'm talking in a vacuum here (wink), check out this real-for-life Comparative Media Studies "digital culture" class which lists this article as a resource. Anville 12:57, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
  • An anonymous user requested elaboration on why "viewers continue to debate the quality" of the Matrix sequels. I think the articles on the movies themselves cover this topic adequately, so this page needs only a brief elaboration on what we've already got.
I found two print articles available through online archives which address this issue pretty well. Yay for more references! Anville 12:17, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Reference numbering — a little fiddling with templates and syntax and stuff should take care of this, but I haven't gotten around to it yet.
All right, the numbering in the references section now follows the order in the article. We cite the Jargon File twice, so I hard-coded the second footnote to point to number 9. Anybody who adds a new footnote before position 9 needs to watch out for this. Anville 11:10, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
  • A thought of my own: have the external links become too bloated? I'm wary of including links to "portals for innovators", various random games, etc., if we don't make any scholarly use of them. A "further reading" list is a decent idea, I think, and it makes a handly place for later editors to mine new information (at which point the "further reading" links move up into "references"). However, is what we've got now just advertising?
I moved our burgeoning link farm to the List of cyberpunk works. Unless a movie, a band or a game is important enough to discuss for several sentences, it doesn't belong in the main article; in turn, if the main article doesn't discuss a topic, it shouldn't have external links about it. Off to the list they go! I believe the works list could also serve as a repository for the borderline Original Research chitchat about particular movies, bands and so forth. This article seems to attract that (like science fiction in general), and I'm no better than anybody else, so it makes sense to have a mechanism for dealing with it. Of course, I'd like to see all OR gone from the main namespace, but the borderline between OR and merely good writing seems so narrow in these "literary studies" that removing OR can be a difficult proposition. (Is a great phrase which sums up the cyberpunk genre "original research" if we're the first people to use it? Certainly, we can say lots of things about cyberpunk which nobody has said before us, or which are buried so deep in lit-crit journals that one could publish a new paper by dredging them out again. Ah, the joys of encyclopedia scholarship.) Anville 16:48, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

If my connection ever gets faster and less lossy, I'll take a crack at these. Many thanks, of course, to the people who have worked on the article so far, and also to those who commented during the FAC process. Anville 11:02, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

I was one of the objectors, and I did try to help out, but I simply got stuck trying to figure out how to amend everything below "Literature". I'm definetly prepared to support the article if the following things are fixed:
  • Expand the literature section. It's teeny-tiny, despite the fact that cyberpunk originated in book form. I think moving stuff from other sections might do the trick. Cut down on film, music, fashion and particularly games. I know we have a lot of contributors that are gaming fans, but this should not effect article focus. I would really prefer that all four sections somehow be merged, but that's pretty much where I got stuck trying last time around.
  • Separate "References and notes" into (that's right) "References" and "Notes". The notes come first, then the references. Avoid using footnotes just to establish the source for longer quotes. Instead write In Blah (magazine/book/periodical) A. Nonymous said: then list the specific issue in the reference section.
  • Be wary of size. I think 30-40 kB would be just right, what with all sub-articles on cyberpunk available to us.
Oh, and I really like the choice for lead pic.
Peter Isotalo 07:44, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for your comments; I can certainly see the justice in them. Personally, I think that right now, the article sits at a local maximum — a big change could still improve it, but little tweaks this way or that won't make it drastically better. I'm a book person, myself, so I'm more likely to stress the written word over computer games (though you might catch me bending over backwards to avoid doing that). I've merged the "History" and "Literature" sections into one big discourse, which is now called "Literature", since it talks more about written stuff than anything else. Also, I've tried to vet the "Games" section, leaving in only what is commercially notable or philosophically significant (e.g., the bit about "GodNet").
It's tricky to organize this kind of stuff. I've opted for a mixed category/chronology system, where each subcategory (live action, anime; video games, RPGs) is discussed in order, and the items within each subcategory are covered chronologically. Makes for nicer reading than a straight-up chronology, in my opinion. I suppose I'm not eager to merge everything after "Literature" because to me, those categories are very distinct: I enjoy Ghost in the Shell and some of the music the article talks about, but I just can't get into the games.
I've kind of run out of oomph on this article, so I won't be doing anything drastic with it. The things I really want to say about SF would be Original Research, anyways, so I'll be finding other outlets for them (meaning my writing cells will likely be occupied elsewhere). Generally speaking, I'm happy with this article in its state today, though I know it can be improved.
Thanks again to everybody. Anville 15:39, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Dates

In preparation for FAC am attempting to fix all the dates in the article to be consistent with the Wikipedia Mannual of Style. This will include de-linking years unless they are part of a date. Johntex\talk 22:47, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Style & Neuromancer

I just noticed this was a FA candidate so I thought I'd add a note here. I made some changes to the 3rd or 4th para under "Style". The analytical notes about Case were factually inaccurate when they stated that he is affected by factors "outside his control." I don't think this is a mere semantic issue. Case is not an epic hero who bravely endures the unexpected; he makes a free decision to engage in criminal activity, then to betray his partners, and is forced to deal with the consequences. This is the essence of the cyberpunk protagonist, and I felt the original statement was misleading. I also added the brief mention of Clint Eastwood, as his Man With No Name character is widely known even by people who aren't big fans of the Western genre, and IMHO provides a reasonable comparison for those who have never heard of cyberpunk. I think Gibson's use of "console cowboy" justifies this comparison. Simishag 20:52, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Images

Just a note from a (somewhat disinterested, but that's unrelated) reader, that the images should really be limited to 1 from each example...we don't need a "Matrix" image of Trinity...then later in the article, of Neo. Sherurcij 09:49, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

You know, I think you're right. The Neo image has been removed. Anville 10:16, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
What? I really think Trinity is a terrible character. I'd reccomend Morpheus, or one of the operators. -Anonymous