User talk:Coffeepusher/Archive 1

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents 1 Hm. 2 Alcoholics Anonymous and your edits 3 Anastasia 4 Re: Hay 5 Re: Exorcism 6 Toronto Star 7 heya 8 Re: MisterAlbert 9 PhGustaf 10 Re: Alcoholics Anonymous comment 11 RE: Dune 12 Bill W. 13 Collaboration 14 Userbox 15 I Am Legend (film) 16 Woodland Critter Christmas 17 Strangelove 18 Kyle Field 19 Public sphere 20 alaska mental health 21 AA, excorcism and public sphere? 22 Cloverfield 23 Thanks for the acknowledgement 24 Music 25 1000 edits 26 Scientology membership 27 Angry Ufologist 28 List of UFOlogists 29 Cult 30 Alcoholics Anonymous 31 your edit to the talk page 32 Newspeak 33 Newspeak 34 IP 35 AfD nomination of The Scientology Handbook 36 Justanother 37 Re: Welcome back 38 Leapeiron 39 Public Sphere 40 ShamanDhia's 41 Re: images 42 Three-revert rule 42.1 Scarpy (talk) 3RR Report 43 AA Supporter? 44 AA as a cult 45 reverting AA page 46 AA Sandbox 47 Scientology controversies 48 question on Scientology Controversy

Hm.

I'd like to suggest that you try using a spellchecker before you make further edits. You're adding good information, but with some serious spelling mistakes. Please don't take this as an insult. DS 13:15, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and it's spelled "distinction". No harm done, I've fixed the article already. DS 13:11, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Alcoholics Anonymous and your edits

Please stop removing relevant and cited information within the article. And AA and the law is highly relevant and well supported. The AA article is not your personal property. Thank you. Mr Christopher 14:13, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Mr. Christopher,

I have no intention of "owning" the AA page, and I am sorry if I have given that impression. the reason for my deletion of the AA and the law section was I felt that it didn't actually give any information actually pertaining to AA as an orgonization (which is the perpose of the AA page) but rather some random trivia revolving around several other subjects, that happened to mention AA. another reason for my edits was the fact that the page is noted as beeing "way too long" and lacking relative information. I am not trying to annoy anyone, but I would like people who log onto the AA page to get information about AA, not hearsay and personal opinions. all of my edits have been supported and referanced, and my reasons for deletes noted in the discussion bord. if I deleted some of your stuff I assure you it was not a personal attack (I have no idea what was writen by you). please inform me of what your philosophy is regarding the "rewrite" of this page, so that we will not butt heads in reviewing the page.Coffeepusher 14:54, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

My "rewrite philosophy" is thus - Do not delete relevant, cited, supported information. If you feel the supported and cited information is irrelevant bring that discussion to the talk page prior to deleting it. I've added more on the talk page. And you're right the article is way too long, I think we should first start deleting the orginal research and unsupported comments. Thanks. Mr Christopher 15:19, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments on how to rewrite this article. I still feel that the law and alcoholism section is misguided, and I will comment on the talk page for my reasoning. I also appriciate the tone of your message, I was afraid that I might have started a editing war with you and your message aliveated that concern.Coffeepusher 16:03, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Mr Christopher, ok. I owe you a appology in both the way I have addressed you on the discussion page and in the error of my personal perseption of you. Your latest post on the AA talk page made me realize that not only have I "owned" the information on the AA Page(contrary to what I stated and really belived) but I have not been behaving well at all when it comes to my interactions with you. I really believe (in error) that there are two ways to see things, my way and people who havnt had my way explained to them properly. I will endevor to keep an open mind on things that I edit, and I really do apriciate the way you helped me out with the edits(you already know spelling is a major hinerance of mine, is there a wicki spell checker?). I look forward to working with you, and hope you consider me an ally.Coffeepusher 00:38, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Dude it's all good :-) This sort of medium lends itself well to miscommunication and such, not a big deal. I think we're both on the same page. On the spelling issue you brought up, you might try using Word or some other word processor program as a spell checker. Write (and spell check) and then copy the results to Wiki. I often do that since I am not the best speller. I appreciate the time and enthusiasm you have for the article. Mr Christopher 14:13, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey where have you been?? Mr Christopher 17:02, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Hahaha! thanks for the message. School kicked up a notch, and I havn't been doing any edits in a while (school, work, sleep when you can grab it). I havn't given up on the page, but it is nice to be missed.Coffeepusher 02:52, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Anastasia

The information about the remains being found at Ekaterinburg this past summer was already in that article at much greater length. You apparently didn't read the whole thing. The information you added was not needed. The remains have not yet been positively identified, though it looks likely it is Alexei and Anastasia. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 05:53, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I understand your point, however all I did was insert a link where a ^{[citation needed]} was located, so that people could cross reference what was already on that page, if you have a more valuble link feel free to replace the ABC report...when I posted it, the link was only about 10 hrs. old.Coffeepusher (talk) 15:52, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Re: Hay

thank you for helping me out with that message earlier this morning. I didn't really know what to do, as you pointed out I am relitivly new at this, but I do want to take an active role in Wikipedia. That beeing said, I believe we are on the same page and hope that we are working together. I would appriciate any help you can give me in navigating the role of a Wiki editor. Coffeepusher (talk) 20:13, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

No problem -- sorry I busted your balls a little bit there. If you have any questions, I'd be happy to give you my input. -- Craigtalbert (talk) 22:54, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Re: Exorcism

I think I will take you up on your offer to help. I am about to engage in some major rewrites on the Exorcism page in an attempt to make it a worthwile article. the discussion section isn't very active, however I can see that several editiors have been making minor changes fairly activly. Demon possesion and Exorcism are hobbies of mine (strange I know) and I have the resorces to do this project. The question is...what can you tell me that may make this a good experience. I am up to date (I think) on the guidelines, however I know that there are things that are about to happen that I have not forseen. any advise will be appriciated.Coffeepusher (talk) 21:38, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

If you've had a good look at all of the guidelines, I think you're prepared. Go ahead and be bold. If you make mistakes, that's okay. I'll add the exorcism page to my watch list and if there's specific things that I can clarify/fix or whatever I'll help you with them. -- Craigtalbert (talk) 23:32, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, I do appriciate it. I look forward to our...um collaberative (in a very loose sence of the word)? work. hope you like the paranormal...although judging from your edits you are more of a down to earth person.Coffeepusher (talk) 23:37, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I had a look at the changes since you started editing: [1]. So far it looks reasonable. You may want to consider using citation templates, and named references. -- Craigtalbert 20:57, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, I have been in paper hell for the last few weeks and have APA on the brain.Coffeepusher 05:45, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

(humorous aside:)On the note that you just wrote on the AA talk, this was my responce (which really is supposed to be funny)...I am in scholarly article hell...I can't wait to get to the day when I can research AA stuff...oh beautiful day, when my time becomes my own and not some egotistical academics who happened to write something that pissed a bunch of other academics off so they make all their friends read it...and before you know it, it is required reading for some subject just so everyone knows what arguments have already been used... that was my response...and I am giggling a lot (and I died a little inside)Coffeepusher (talk) 06:34, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Toronto Star

Thanks for your note. Please let me know if you hear back from them, I'd be interested to discover what their attitude is but "we'll look into it" is probably going to be a standard response. Regards. --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 21:17, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Hay, this is in reference to the article that was copied into the toranto star. I just checked their website, and it appears the writer is still working for them...but her articles are all her own now. No word on the donation, but I will imagine that somthing was contributed because the thought makes me smile. Coffeepusher (talk) 20:17, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for keeping me in touch; it's seems the message has worked in any case. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 20:28, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

heya

Cheers for your comments on my submissions. Appreciated. I guess we have a long slog ahead, but I hope that you can see that I haven't added in anything outrageous and have put the books in on grounds of notability as a fringe theory. Clearly others disagree, so I guess we will have to make slow progress, but thanks for your comments. See you on the AA talk page. Step13thirteen (talk) 17:19, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Re: MisterAlbert

I have a problem that I was hoping you could help me out with. I seem to have gotten into MrAlberts bad graces on the Bill W. page because I questioned the validity of his adding of "other woman" to the page...and then I took it off because of a lack of responce. currently he is going to report me for vandalism (which won't stick, so I am not worried about it) but I need to know how to resolve the situation. I know you have delt with him in the past...and that you have experience with this thing.Coffeepusher 22:17, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't worry about it. He's a strange bird. Just keep doing whatever it is you're doing and believe in yourself. :) -- Craigtalbert (talk) 16:03, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

PhGustaf

Thanks for being a voice of reason in that whole ordeal. -- Craigtalbert (talk) 04:36, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

It amazes me how heated people can get on line. funny, when I started editing wikipedia's AA page the first thing that happened was a 3 day flame war with mrchristopher. AA does that to you, and it was over little things. I will try and be calm, as long as you biteme when I am unreasonable...deal.

somthing I thought of...and thought I should show you. does this look familiar Fred04:45, 10 December 2007 (UTC) The Library04:45, 10 December 2007 (UTC) Mr.Miles04:45, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah MisterAlbert/Fred/.13/.93/TheLibrary has problems signing his posts. So does Mr. Miles to be fair. Makes everything a little bit harder, but you know, God bless'em. -- Craigtalbert (talk) 04:54, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous comment

This is just a thank you for putting your two cents in on the "see Sharp Press" contriversy. too often people shy away from the RfC because the debate has hit the "uncontrolably hostile" catagory (I will admit to loging on to wikipedia about every hr. during that one just to see who had screamed next...poor behavior, but I am human)

Your comment actually cooled things down a bit, it was pointed out by one of the members and we where able to simmer down and get on with it. so Thank You for your contribution.Coffeepusher (talk) 16:58, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

P.S. I am not shure how familiar you are with bell hooks, usualy she does race, but recently she has focused her attention to feminism and relationships. her talk at USC (i believe that was the school) last month focused on relationships, and how to form a partnership today. anyway, feminism is one of my interests, so I just wanted to pass that one along.Coffeepusher (talk) 17:02, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your follow-up on my RfC comment [2]. I'm so glad that my comment was able to help. It was really nice of you to take the time to let me know how things worked out! Seriously, it made my day.

As for bell hooks, what a woman! Phyesalis (talk) 17:50, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

RE: Dune

Welcome to Wkipedia. I liked the section you added to Dune. However, if you have a source for the information that would make your addition much better. sections that arn't sourced have a tendancy to be delieted, and I want that story to stay. if you need any help let me know, I look forward to your future editsCoffeepusher (talk) 19:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, the "To Tame a Land" thing and others have been added and deleted to Dune articles many times because no one has yet cited a source for the info. Also, I believe some editors have challenged its notability. Please try ot address both issues if you want to assure the paragraph stays in. And by the way, I will say that yours is probably the best-written of the versions I've seen. Thanks. — TAnthony^Talk 22:41, 10 December 2007

Hello! thank you. Well i first read it in the most recent iron maiden Fan Club magazine that there was an error in the printing of several versions of the Piece of mind album, and meant that they were very collectable. I then went to google the information to see what was the controversy behind the name, and found this source http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=2348

Is this credible enough? cheers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jim Sniper (talk • contribs) 18:26, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Howdy! Well I looked at your source, and it gives the source as an interview given in germany. I can't seem to find the actuall transcript of the interview (which would be ideal), but I am not into music that much, so you may have better luck (know the places to find transcripts). currently if you write it like..."in an interview at (such and such) (this random famous guy whos name excapes me) said the basis for the song..." and then cite the source at the end (using the referance tabs), it will have a much better chance of standing up. like TAnthony said, some people think it isn't notable enough for this article, so you may have to discuss it on the discussion board. Thank you for the followup, I look forward to seeing your future edits.Coffeepusher (talk) 19:17, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Good job with that one. TAnthony didn't like the extended quote at the end (and I agree it made it messy, but adding it didn't hurt at all) but the citation really cemented that peice of information...i see you found the actuall interview, awsome. Have fun on wikipedia, and if you need any help, be shure to let me know.Coffeepusher (talk) 19:03, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

cheers! yeah i thought it was a little wordy and a tad messy. will do! Jim_Sniper (talk) 19:21, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I just added a hotlink to the title of this section...just so anyone who reads it can click and go right to the right section.Coffeepusher (talk) 00:53, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

yeh thats cool. nicely done. Jim_Sniper (talk) 16:43, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Bill W.

Howdy! Thanks for your insight with the Bill W. page. Sometimes the discussion can get heated, and it is nice to get a fresh perspective. I hope you decide to continue with the work on that page, since your edits have been really good and your insight on point (although it dosn't neccisarily mean I agree with your opinion, its good to have someone who has earned your respect disagree with you)...if you want another fun page, try checking out the Alcoholics Anonymous page...thats another one where personalities come out in full force.Coffeepusher (talk) 16:41, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I do feel that friendly disagreement is the point of Wikipedia. May stay around a bit, but am also embroiled in many other disagreements, e.g. cold fusion. Happy editing. ☻ Someone has poured you tea ☺ Itsmejudith (talk) 21:08, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Collaboration

Feel like working with me to bring a couple South Park articles up in quality status? Perhaps to WP:GA, and beyond? Cirt (talk) 21:04, 14 December 2007 (UTC).

I would love to help. Just tell me what needs doing. I will warn you, my grammor and spelling are lacking, but I will do all I can so you don't have to go over my edits. are directors comentaries good sources?Coffeepusher (talk) 21:13, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

• Okay, I will try to remember to keep you posted. Cirt (talk) 05:45, 15 December 2007 (UTC).

Userbox

Hi. Re "This user tries to do the right thing. If he makes a mistake, please let him know." I would say that robotically reverting another's good-faith edits en masse is a mistake. That is what talk pages are for. Please consider WP:0RR. --JustaHulk (talk) 21:12, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry that I reverted your edits. both of them had already been the source of many actual vandels, and the use of them discussed at lenght on discussion pages (some of which are now archived, so obviously you where unaware). The xenu page is a hot one, and the undo feture is burning on a daily basis. I am sorry I was quick to undo when an explination was actually in order.Coffeepusher (talk) 21:19, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

OK, apology most definitely accepted. I am happy to work with any well-mannered editor no matter their stand on Scientology. If you have any questions about my edits please bring them up on the talk page and we can hash them out. Happy Holiday! --JustaHulk (talk) 21:22, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I posed the question on the discussion page. I may not agree with your edits, but you arn't posing an irational opinion. I don't think I misrepresented your position, however you may want to post in order to explain exactly your intent. lets see what the editiors think about this one.Coffeepusher (talk) 21:30, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Hey, at least we both like TMBG. --JustaHulk (talk) 21:42, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

seen them 4 times, and own all their albums (except the ABC's). I am glad we are both up for discussion, I also edit the Alcoholics Anonymous page, and somtimes discussion is just futile...imagine beeing stuck in a foxhole by yourself...WWI...France...and it is just too quiet... that is what editing that page is like.Coffeepusher (talk) 21:47, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I assume you mean that you edit from a pro-AA POV and feel lonely? How do you suppose I feel, as the (usually) sole Scientologist? --JustaHulk (talk) 21:49, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I do understand feeling like you are the only one. I am actually not pro-AA...or Anti-AA...just...well I feel shot at alot...I had a stance at one time, but that got blured sometime aroung the "See Sharp Press" debate that came from the "Throwing spagetti on the wall" section that led to the "Wikilawyering" feasco (that turned around on the person who posted that one, his posts havn't been the same since) then the "Bill W" page crossover debate...2 RfO's and that was just since the 25th of november. and all I was trying to do was push a non pov stance. honastly the Scientology pages are tame, try recovery to get your blood boiling, I edit Xenu et al. to relax from a hard day of debating.Coffeepusher (talk) 21:58, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I Am Legend (film)

I support your comments on Talk:I_Am_Legend_(film)#The_trap. Nice one! SilkTork *^SilkyTalk 12:57, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I noticed that you restored the medical terminology to the Plot. On the talk page, Jim Dunning expressed concern about its usage since such details require specialist knowledge, which would be a form of original research per WP:PSTS. Can you weigh in at the talk page about this? —Erik (talk • contrib) - 00:21, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Hay Erik, thanks for the message. oops my bad, that was actually accedental. I was reverting an edit...and I guess that the medical terminology was in the version that I used. My goal was to remove a POV edit that talked about how "an obvious alpha male was trying to get his woman back after she was captured" (simplified explination). I will go back to the talk page and clear up amy misunderstandings of my intentions.Coffeepusher (talk) 02:39, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

No worries, I thought it was a slight snafu. Appreciate your comment! —Erik (talk • contrib) - 05:55, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Woodland Critter Christmas

Hello, I believe you misunderstood my edit to Woodland Critter Christmas, which you reverted. My goal was to remove original research, not add to it. The article now and before my edits asserted that the "episode contains a continuity error." This factual assertion is unprovable, unless the creators themselves were to speak on the subject (which I don't think they ever have). The article also offered up the bold claim of a "mistake" by the narrator Cartman, again the sort of assertion that could only be proven true or false with verification by the creators. I removed those assertions and reworded it to something more neutral, saying that it could either be a mistake or it could be intentional (which, correct me if I'm wrong covers the entire universe of possibilities). My codicil explanation about the undead is a straight reading from the script, but if you think that counts as OR, you could easily remove that phrase and leave the rest of my explanation intact. I'd be fine with that. Finally, if you think that any discussion of continuity errors is always OR (an argument that I can sympathize with; even if you cite a "source" like a TV critic, the source still is asserting an opinion), then the proper thing to do would be to delete the entire paragraph. I'd be fine with that, too. As it is, though, a full reversion of my edit increases the amount of OR on my page, and so I have re-reverted it until I hear further from you. --M@rēino 15:05, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate your message. The problem I am having is the statement "This could be chalked up to a mistake by the show's makers, or in the alternative could be intentional, if Cartman meant the critter to be undead or reincarnated." because it offers a reading of the show that isn't contained within the origional script, and if that statement isn't backed up by a source shows only what an editors opinion of the situation is. I also don't think it holds true to the storyline because if he is in fact "undead or reincarnated" why does he show up in one scean and then disappears after that shot? this requires an elaberate explination that wasn't given within the show.

Personally I would like to delete the entire section because it is only a small step away from trivia, and I don't want that door to be opened ("...the mountain lion is a referance to Ansolon...the joke about Aids can be cross referanced to an earlier episode...This isn't the first time an abortion clinic was the topic of south park...Tray and Matt ordered chinese take out while writing this episode...etc.")however the other editors seem to like it so it stays. Those are my concerns.

If there is in fact dialog within the episode that backs up this claim, perhaps you could add that to the statement. however if this is just an observation you had about the show, it is my opinion that it should be deleted. Coffeepusher (talk) 16:41, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Strangelove

Please stop inserting material until you take a look at the insertions I've already done as part of a general clean-up of the article I've been doing for the last couple of hours -- you're duplicating effort. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 17:54, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

"Your edits are not that good"...I understand you deleted that one, but I did see it and it hurt. I hope you understand that I am really trying to work with you here...but statements like that one make it difficult to believe you want anything but to beat me into submission. I did make the mistake of not checking what your edits where before I started, and I appologise for that. Now, according to the discussion page you intended for the section to stand which was why I started editing. What is it you intend to do? Coffeepusher (talk) 18:08, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Look, I apologize for hurting your feelings -- I thought better about it, which is why I went back and changed the comment. My intention is to insert into the article, or as footnotes, material which can be readily inserted without disruption to the flow of the writing, and to leave the rest of the material where it is. I do not find list of miscellaenous facts objectionable. I understand they have the potential to grow like Topsy, but that simply means they have to be kept under control, just like any other aspect of an article. I'm continuing to look at the material and see where it can fit in, but I believe I'm nearing a stopping point. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 18:14, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

An electronic medium is a poor way of communication, and it has a tendency to amplify...well everything. I know you didn't intend that the way it sounded, especialy judgeing from your last post. once you are done, please post on the discussion page what direction you think the article can go. I look forward to your edits. Coffeepusher (talk) 18:23, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for understanding, and your point about electronic communications is a good one, but the fault is mine -- I felt harried and rudeness came to the surface as a result. In any event, I think I'm done with the article for the time being -- I'll take a look at it later today or tonight, but I think I've done what needs to be done. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) (talk/cont) 18:42, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

it may have been rude, but it was somewhat justified. I took a look at your edits, and they do work alot better than mine did. I do like the direction you where heading in. (I must say that when I was editing I ran into the footnote about the song at the end of the movie and was wondering who put that there). in any case, I am glad we are able to discuss these things and look forward to working with you in the future. Coffeepusher (talk) 18:49, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Kyle Field

I've responded to your concerns on the RfC on Kyle Field. I would appreciate any additional feedback. — BQZip01 — ^talk 06:42, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Public sphere

Howdy! You have been correcting the Public Sphere article for a while now, and I really appriciate your help. I am currently done with the major revisions to the article, and I need someone to look it over to see if it makes sence. evidently all the other editors left some time before I started, and I was hoping you could see what you think. It is a specialised section of communication studies, but if someone who hasn't been exposed to the theory before dosn't understand the page, then I need to rework it untill they do...that and the fact that you know grammer better than I do could help improve the article.

If you have the time I would appriciate a look through, and then just contact me to let me know what made sence and what needs to be worked on...probably on the discussion page since future editors will need to know why changes have taken place. Thank you again Coffeepusher (talk) 06:32, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for being bold and reworking this article! The content is very readable, and reasonably interesting to someone with no knowledge of the subject (that's me!). I did a few rounds of spelling correction and clean-up. The only non-minor change I made was to indicate that a work mentioned early on was Habermas' habilitationsschrift rather than his doctoral thesis (which was called Das Absolute und die Geschichte. Von der Zwiespältigkeit in Schellings Denken according to the page on Jürgen Habermas). Hope this helps! -- KathrynLybarger (talk) 04:07, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the look through. I am glad you understand the concept and that it is "reasonably interesting" (I got a chuckle out of that one, I have come to find that dry theory isn't everyone's idea of a good Sunday afternoon...just me) for you. Thank you for the addition of the habilwachamacallit, it makes the article even more credible and I was unaware a change needed to be done. wow! I learned something! anyway, if you come across anything else that you can think of to improve the article I would really appreciate it, otherwise I will see you after all my misspellings. Coffeepusher (talk) 04:19, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

alaska mental health

My undo was because you modified a cited reference with information not contained within that reference. I like your other additions, what is the citation for the block quote you gave?Coffeepusher (talk) 19:46, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I will cite it, it is the WikiMedia thing. Gotta be careful about OR based on primary materials. I can go either way on the bit in the lead but that thing under "controversy" is OR - we don't know when Hubbard first became aware or when Scientologists first became active - all we have is the telegram. --JustaHulk (talk) 19:51, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

AA, excorcism and public sphere?

Wow! thanks for showing up, it was getting lonely on that page. This is just a note to let you know I revamped the private sphere section as par you advice, and I was wondering what you thought? Coffeepusher (talk) 21:05, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

P.s. what are your thoughts about the article as a whole? I would like to see it turn into a great article, but naturaly I need input and more editors contributing (I am not an expert, but I want to be one day :))Coffeepusher (talk) 21:05, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Vielleicht wirst Du nochmal die Geister, die Du gerufen hast, verfluchen. Sorry to tell you: I'm sort of an expert on this matter, I came across this article to annoy somebody completely different. It'd be a first for me to contribute to something, I actually know really something about. But, heck, that might be fun. PS: The article is crap, as it does not exhibit all the wealth of approaches to the PS, which exist. Read Jean Cohen as a first intro, if you haven't yet. Let's roll: Fossa_?! 23:19, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, how shall I put it: Welcome to Wikipedia! Fossa_?! 01:14, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

plus bell hooks, gettin' better by the minute. Fossa_?! 01:17, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

While its not Faust...it should be. Since you started your statement with such an introduction, I pose the following question...are you so sure you are the spirit, I was minding my own business when I saw an edit summary that called to me...

I have the advantage of you (your homepage link is impressive), so I will make introductions. I am an Undergraduate Student at Christopher Newport University in communications. I have chosen to peruse public sphere theory, and have been studying it for 2 years (I also work full time, and have my other studies to deal with so my knowledge is limited at best...the Wikipedia article has a good summation of the direction I have gone). One paper is about to be published in Romania, which dealt with the basic structure of Habermas' theory, and I have another one going to conference which dealt with the framing aspects of the media and how the public sphere under Hausers model interacts with the media to deliberate. I used the Immigration debate in the United States as my case study.

What book by Jean Cohen would you recommend.

The semester is about to start, so my activity will be limited (I am graduating in May, so this semester is going to be tough) but I really look forward to seeing what direction you want to take this article.Coffeepusher (talk) 06:47, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Cloverfield

I am really sorry if you interpreted my comments toward you as sarcastic. That defiantly was not my intention, and I assure you that there was no hostility directed toward you. my only goal was to clean up the page, and you reverted without any explanation on the talk page, so I did my best to post on the talk page how I understood the situation, and my reasons for reverting back. if anything was considered sarcastic...well that just shows the fallacies of an electronic medium...it forces the reader to make too many assumptions about what the message said (it suddenly occurs to me i did write "that is what a talk page is for"...and I would probably have taken that as biting sarcasm rather than humor that we are talking about cleaning up a talk page...please understand I didn't think that one through). I want to work together, and I appreciate you explaining your actions. I agree that posts should be deleted immediately if not constructive...and I understand why it is probably a bad idea to do it later. I am also unfamiliar with the how an when of an non-automated archive system, if you could just give me some pointers on that I would appreciate it. I hope this clears up any misunderstanding. Coffeepusher (talk) 05:26, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

as noted in the discussion board, I re read my comment and it does come off as really sarcastic. I am not shure what I did wrong in typing it, but I will be mindfull in the future.Coffeepusher (talk) 06:17, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the acknowledgement

It has been at least a week, and you are still working hard. Thank you for your dillagence.Coffeepusher (talk) 20:18, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Cirt (talk) 20:20, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Music

Hey. I thought of you just now. What do you think of this cover (the guitar playing is a bit weak but otherwise). --JustaHulk (talk) 03:06, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

1000 edits

Congrats! You can put this on your userpage. --JustaHulk (talk) 03:20, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Scientology membership

Thanks for the correction. In re reading my addition it did appear misleading as to the source. I have redone the sentance, and believe it accuratly demonstrates what was said in the interview.Coffeepusher (talk) 20:38, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I thought the cite could be salvaged, but wasn't comfortable the previous wording. AndroidCat (talk) 20:56, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Angry Ufologist

I find it insulting that someone who couldn't out-spell a first grader feels that they have the authority to dictate who gets to be listed as a famous ufologist. I'm a doctor for Christ's sake! What are you? Some hack editor with a god complex? Get over yourself and stop sticking your greasy little fingers where they don't belong! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.61.99.47 (talk) 08:59, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

for starters I am someone who knows what an ad-honimin falicy in logic is "Couldn't out spell a first grader"...yah Ive heard that one. Next "has watched every episode of X-files and considers David to be super dreamy" hardly qualifys as a ufologist. Finaly both of your "Dr's" (I am assuming one is you) where born in 1984&1986...unless they started college at 16, they arn't Dr's...Its possable, but I Highly doupt it. Either your edit was a hoax...or you need to better understand what we are doing here on wikipedia.Coffeepusher (talk) 17:50, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

hummmm....According to facebook you both are undergraduates...Well one of you was supposed to graduate at least. Natasha L. Rodriguez '08 and Matthew Carroll '07 Kent state.Coffeepusher (talk) 20:36, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

List of UFOlogists

Hello. Recently you removed two names that I added to the List of Ufologists, Dan Akroyd & David Sereda. Both are UFOlogists. Why were they removed from that list? Nhl4hamilton (talk) 07:54, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

The reason I removed those links was the referance was an advertisement for the video interview and thus was WP:SPAM. beeing an advertisement it also didn't qualify for a reliable source, and seemed to be riding on the fact that a celeberaty was interested in UFO's rather than the information he was presenting. additionaly I havn't found anything about the reserch he is doing, studies he is participating in, or what his area of specialty is. He just appears to be a celeberaty spokesman. those where the reasons for its removalCoffeepusher (talk) 17:34, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• OK Thanks for the explanation.  Nhl4hamilton | Chit-Chat  23:17, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Hay, thank you for adding all those citations and improving the article significantly.Coffeepusher (talk) 07:29, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Your welcome. I still have a few more to do in the United States section. Should be done sometime this week.  Nhl4hamilton | Chit-Chat  09:14, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Cult

I added the text you asked for on the talk page. personaly I believe it would realy help drive home the point that what makes a cult a "Cult" is hard to interperate, however I will leave it up to you on what infromation to add, and how to add the information.Coffeepusher (talk) 22:06, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Alcoholics Anonymous

I also recently edited the Alcoholics Anonymous site and received a welcome message from you indicating that my content was not neutral. My contribution was an assignment for an e-communities course where we were assigned readings on how to cite on Wikipedia properly. I am confused by your choice to undo the edit. I have worked in the addiction research field for over seven years and have a significant amount of expertise about AA. For the purposes of the class, we were asked to follow up when our entries were undone. Could you provide more clarification on your definition of "neutrality". Thank you for the welcome and thanks in advance for your insight.Lmclaug (talk) 19:27, 13 February 2008 (UTC)lmclaug

Thank you for contacting me, your class sounds great I wish I could take it. I want to start out with saying that I agree with the information you presented and it was cited accuratly and it was correct. You can quote me to your prof in that you did your research.

However you chose one of the most contriversial articles in wikipeida to edit I have ever seen (and I edit scientology articles, if that gives you any idea of its contriversy). Normaly your edits would have probably stood, but in highly contested artcles things are much more likely to be reverted. Every part of the AA page has been under great scrutiny, check out the archive section of the discussion page to see how heated it can get.

The reason it wasn't NPOV was that it came from the primary source and was placed in such a way as to counter other infomation. Secondary sources are prefered. and the placement of a counterargument can unballance the article...I am not shure if this makes sence.

we have sources that talk about AA and court mandated attendance, suddenly we add another source that dosn't directly mention mandated attendance but does attempt to discredit the first source, now what we have is a section that uses WP:SYNTH in order to foward an argument.

I don't think I am getting my point across well, however it is a start. please post any other questions on my talk page (I am moving your comment to the bottom of the page, so it is in order) and I hope to be of service.Coffeepusher (talk) 19:50, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

your edit to the talk page

Hay, this is to let you know that I reincerted your statement onto the anonymous (group) Talk page. usually we don't delete comments from talk pages (except in the case of vandalism or outright abserdaty like the "is bin ladan a scientologists?" comment that was removed yesterday from the scientology page...no he is a muslem...duh!) I appreciate the fact that you only removed your own comment, which shows great understanding on what the effects of removing anothers comment may be. Unfortunatly it caused the entire section afterwards to be incoherant...having no basis on which to found it on. If you would like to "delete" your comment, or otherwise show everyone that you want to change some sections of it, feel free to strike the comment with a line through. I am actually unfamiliar on how to do this...since I havn't ever done it, however it is in the "how to edit" section above and I have seen many comments that have encorperated this tactic. again, I appologise for undoing your edit...I hope you appreciate why I did it and understand that I really want you to feel welcomed at wikipedia...(especially after that very vvveeerrryy civil comment left on a vandals talk page...I laughed a lot, and it shows a good understanding of how to do things here on wikipedia)Coffeepusher (talk) 20:34, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Coffeepusher- thank you so much for your message to me on my talk page. I knew I shouldn't have been deleting my posts but they came back to haunt me on IRC. I really appreciate your encouraging words and advice. I didn't get a the oppotunity to read your whole user talk page but I saw that your g/f likes SMASHING PUMPKINS. Fuckin' kewl, dude! You gots a good lady, then.

And even though I may be a newbie at editing I have used this Wikipedia as my go-to source for info for almost 2 years running. I as wrong in some of my facts on the anonymous page and it was embaressing, believe me. But thanx ya much for your kind wordz when I was gettin' flamed. It meant a lot to me. See ya 'round, homeboy.

Oh, by the way, that last post was by me, Floridanon (talk) 11:47, 22 February 2008 (UTC)floridanon. sorry I'm still working out the kinks in my game.

Don't worry about making a mistake about when "Anonymous" was formed and why. I myself was unaware of its existance untill people started talking about it on the talk:Scientology page (which I monitor)...and if it wasn't for wikipedia (and this guy I work with) I wouldn't know anything outside of the Scientology part. be bold (using reliable sources of cource)...and don't limit yourself to the Anonymous article...There are millions of articles that need help, find somthing that interests you and start editing. good luck (and keep your cool like you always have, it pays dividends here)Coffeepusher (talk) 07:29, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Newspeak

hay, I found the article and you sudjested that the bottom section should be deleted. However it appears that you didn't delete it. I came to the same conclusion that you did in reading the article, and was going to go ahead but I thought it would be prudent to ask you why you didn't delete it just in case there was somthing worth wile that changed your mind (or you did and got met with great edit wars). Coffeepusher (talk) 06:18, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

No, I simply forgot it... it has been done now. Probably, somebody will be discontent with this. Let's wait and see. -- 790 (talk) 20:40, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, I have waited almost a month...and no revert wars. Thank you for cleaning that up, it looks alot better. I also like your comment on the talk page, your explination was much better than the one I would have used. Coffeepusher (talk) 23:57, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Newspeak

hay, I found the article and you sudjested that the bottom section should be deleted. However it appears that you didn't delete it. I came to the same conclusion that you did in reading the article, and was going to go ahead but I thought it would be prudent to ask you why you didn't delete it just in case there was somthing worth wile that changed your mind (or you did and got met with great edit wars). Coffeepusher (talk) 06:18, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

No, I simply forgot it... it has been done now. Probably, somebody will be discontent with this. Let's wait and see. -- 790 (talk) 20:40, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, I have waited almost a month...and no revert wars. Thank you for cleaning that up, it looks alot better. I also like your comment on the talk page, your explination was much better than the one I would have used. Coffeepusher (talk) 23:58, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

IP

Will, I saw that you placed a level 3 warning on a IP talk page...although he did have a level 2 already, it was for obvious vanalism...I know, I placed it, I am questioning the placement of a level 3 for somthing that appears to be a good faith newbee edit (although pov definatly). what I am trying to say is it looks like you WP:BITE him.Coffeepusher (talk) 20:47, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't know which IP you're on about. Care to elaborate? Will ^(talk) 20:48, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

It was User talk:71.163.67.110, sorry for not including that information.Coffeepusher (talk) 20:54, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

That revert must've been either:

1. A mistake, or;
2. Someone reverted an edit he did to that page and warned him. I normally revert if that happens.

Thanks. Will ^(talk) 20:58, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

...um...I can't make any sence out of that statement. the ip made what appeared to be a WP:GF edit, you reverted his edit, and then you placed a level three warning to his talk page which I thought was severe and questioned you about it. your responce dosn't adress any of those points that I can see.Coffeepusher (talk) 21:04, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

You placed a level 2 warning on his talk page. I then reverted his edit, and the software I was using gave it a level 3. Warnings stack - there's no point in multiple level 2 warnings. Will ^(talk) 21:07, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

ooh! now your statement makes sence. I will ask if you think what he did realy constitutes vandalism? personaly I think you should remove the template since it was placed by your bot, but that is only my interpritation of the situation. the problem is that the damage has probably already been done. Coffeepusher (talk) 21:12, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

You're overstating the impact of the revert. But sure, it's not a bad edit, I'll revert my warning. Will ^(talk) 21:18, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

AfD nomination of The Scientology Handbook

An article that you have been involved in editing, The Scientology Handbook, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Scientology Handbook. Thank you. Coffeepusher (talk) 00:20, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Lol, I was like "wtf? I never edited that article," and then I realized that I removed a backlink. :P Cheers :P --slakr^\ talk / 01:30, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry about that, it was a scientology article, so I was doing my best to follow every letter of the law (notify all contibuters). You where actually one of the few, so I just went down the list without looking at what you actually did.Coffeepusher (talk) 22:19, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Justanother

Regarding this edit, he seems to have been saying he scrambled his password to try to enforce a wikibreak. Please advise: is there some way to tone down and normalize this situation? Durova^Charge! 21:45, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate your contacting me. I was unaware that he scrambled his pasword (and am still a little confused about the logic in such an action). Justahulk as I knew him was a rather contriversial individual (he had a reputation in the Scientology section...I am shure I do as well come to think of it), who although him and I had more conflicts than agrements, we had more in common than he realised and I just want to look out for him while he is gone. I assure you that I am just trying to keep his page from beeing vanalised. Given this new information, I am not shure what to do. What would you advise?Coffeepusher (talk) 23:20, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

never mind, evidently he left an e-mail, so I will contact him there if I have questions about future edits.Coffeepusher (talk) 23:22, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

OK and thanks. Not sure what to do here. Durova^Charge! 23:25, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

ok, what situation are you refuring to?...what are you not shure what to do about?Coffeepusher (talk) 23:29, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, he's pegged me as an opponent. A couple of days ago I found myself reverting an invitation to join a featured list drive when he asked me to stop posting to his user talk. Can't reach him. Wish I could. Durova^Charge! 23:31, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Wow! well I read all that on his page...initialy I ignored it because it is quite lengthy. He even mentioned me! Ok, it was brief, however I do like seeing my name in print. What I can say is in my experience he has a set style (we all do, if I had any sock pupet accounts they would easily be taged for mispellings) usualy he attacks what I will call the "wiki charicter" of his opponents which will suck them into a socratic defence dialectic where he gets to controll the direction of the conversation. This would work best in person but electronicly it has less success for reasons I don't care to get into. "new admin" falls right within this style. Our first confrontation had him calling me ignorant in an off handed way by quoting the no revert rule, and asking me to consider it. However when I made it clear that I was willing to work with him on the talk page it calmed things down. since then we have had many disagreements, however it hasn't blown up into anything big. unless you have experienced any additional harrasment, I would say that he has calmed down from the blocking (I have seen him throw that tantrum before about Cirt, and I think you where just an afterthought). Does this help?Coffeepusher (talk) 00:09, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Well this goes back nearly a year. I make no claim to expertise about Scientology, other than to say they're a newish religion with an image problem, but I do know a lot about conflict of interest issues as they relate to Wikipedia. I saw some very short-sighted activity by pro-Scientology editors that was placing them at risk for a serious PR backlash. I tried to communicate this to them in a number of different ways, and wound up taking the matter to arbitration. The case went very slowly and before it ended the WikiScanner came out...and along with it exactly the type of headlines I had feared would happen. Unfortunately, he and the other Scientologist (or pro-Scientologist) editors seem to have perceived only that I was some jerk who was telling them no. With a situation as polarized as that I can understand how that kind of trench warfare perspective sets in. I just wish I could break through it, and apparently I can't. Real world disputes that leak onto Wikipedia are very hard to address. Durova^Charge! 00:16, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

if you check my talk page archives, you already know that I cut my wiki teeth on the Alcoholics Anonymous article...so I understand (it is by far one of the most contriversial talk page in history that I have seen). I will give this a think, because you are adressing some problems that I have experienced as well, and I want to come back with a well thought out answer. thank you for contacting meCoffeepusher (talk) 00:26, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Heh...I cut my teeth on Joan of Arc. And as incredible as it may seem for a woman who'd been dead for 600 years, the page was being owned by two trolls. Took me half a year to raise it to featured. A lot of my work since then has been built around the idea that I didn't want other volunteers to go through the same problems I endured. Tough stuff, and guaranteed to make me unpopular in some quarters. But I follow my heart and my conscience. Best regards, Durova^Charge! 00:33, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

You know, I had this long elegant reply, but I realized that the only one who would get something out of it was me. I will say that based on your experience, I don’t think I am going to enlighten you…however I will try and give you my interpretation of a solution. If you are trying to break through to Hulk…well all I can say is play by the rules (you do, that just happens to be my only advise). Editors who have an agenda usually at least respect rules (if not try and find many many loopholes) because if they don’t they will get booted and the agenda is lost. If he has picked you as an opponent…well based on his debate style I would say let him know that this isn’t about him or his or your agenda…its about the rules. In this tactic it restricts the conversation to a tangible ruling body of order that is accessible to all. And don’t get caught up in the defensive dialectic. This will allow them to steer the debate away from the topic at hand.

As for how to break through the trenches…I don’t think I do that too well. Using the tactic described above I have kept a fairly NPOV in my writing. I rely heavily on consensus in talk pages to keep from getting into a one on one debate (in hulks case we brought 3 discussions to talk pages and agreed not to touch the edits…come to think of it, he “won” 2 of those…nutz). These are things I learned on the AA page…after messing up a lot, and they tend to work for me.

although this is my experience, I would like to hear your response. It would give me the opportunity to become a better editor.Coffeepusher (talk) 01:05, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Re: Welcome back

I saw that you started editing again, and wanted to say "Hay". Your insight has been missed on the AA page. Coffeepusher (talk) 23:07, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Hey, thanks! Good to be back. -- Scarpy (talk) 03:55, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Leapeiron

I am not sure if this is how I am suppose to talk to you, but I hope you read this. I am new here in wikipedia, and so far I am extremely confused and sad. Just seconds after posting the JACOS page, they are trying to delete it!!! I really dont understand some of the reasons because it is in wikipedia jergon and even if I try to fix it I am still not used to the controls or which button should I use to fix. If somebody could help me or at least let me know what do I have to fix and show me how, then please do, but dont delete my article, it is my very first one. Thank you very much. email me at leapeiron@yahoo.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by Leapeiron (talk • contribs) 21:36, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

ok, here are some thoughts and experience that I can share with you. First off, you didn't recieve a welcome template...I will take care of this for you. It contains a collection of links that tell you all about wikipedia policies and give advise on editing and creating articles. Secondly, I am really sorry that your first experience with wikipedia policies is a AFD review...Mine was that I pissed off some guy on the Alcoholics Anonymous article that caused a "screaming match" between the two of us for a few days...but AFD reviews are brutal, especially when it is your creation that is up for deletion. Ok, on to your article.

The reason your article was nominated was twofold. First the corperation doesn't appear to be notable. understand that notable dosn't mean it isn't important, it just means that it hasn't caught the publics attention. The criteria for notablility is found in the blue link that is in the explination for why the page was nominated (on the AFD page). Basicly it boils down to is there enough WP:RS (reliable secondary sources) that have talked about this company (press relieces don't count). usually I do a Copernic or Google search to get a good feel of wether there are enough sources (there isn't any set number, but if it is less than say 5 or 10...I usally don't think it is notable). additionaly those sources usually have to tell about some event, or somthing that has captured the public eye.

The second reason your article was nominated was because it appears to be an advertisement for the company. it tells alot about the inner workings of the company, and its future plans but nothing about events that have recieved media attention, catastrophys, law suits, etc. this is also the reason you recieved a WP:COI (conflict of interest) notice that appeared on your talk page. you have more information about this company than the average writer, and more than your sources provide. Now I am not saying that you work for them, I am only telling you the reason you got that notice.

now that beeing said, You arn't in trouble and no one is trying to ban you from wikipedia. although you feel like you are under attack right now we do want you to continue contributing to wikipedia (yah, I know...funny way of showing it...right?) but it is true. I don't know if your article will stay. if you think it is notable, then add some secondary sources (sources not published by the company or press relieces) from reliable sources to the article. tell the human interest side of the company, are they involved in any notable scandals? Did they have any significant press coverage over an action? add that to the article. all that beeing said, It may still not stand. in that case, I encourage you to review Wikipedia policies, and contribute to other articles of interest to you. read the talk pages, and get a feel of where the other editors have been taking those articles, and what areas of the article are under the most scrutiny. get a feel for the policies, particpate in the behind the sceans work.

Again thank you for contacting me, and if you have any questions, feel free to contact me.Coffeepusher (talk) 22:26, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Public Sphere

(discussion with Pragmatismo (talk)

Would you be able to elaberate on each of the articles you mentioned in the public sphere article. Right now it reads like a literature review (a good one I may add), and would greatly improve the article if you could elaberate on how each work discussed, changed, viewed, structured, added to the theory of the public sphere. Coffeepusher (talk) 23:02, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

ShamanDhia's

ok - what are the comments you found about me? Can you tell? Thanks for your help, I'm a newbie here, but not with computers ;) Can you suggest a better format for the bio if it shouldn't read like a resume (I thought facts are good) should I write a little about each project as a timeline? the Hitochi Princess (talk) 19:48, 12 March 2008 (UTC)ShamanDhia

Thanks for contacting me. I found 3 sources from your art school where students spacificly mentioned you as an insparation, it was found during a copernic search.

I am not shure if I am going to have the answers you are looking for, but I will do my best based on my point of view. First off, the biggest problem is the question of Notablility, I believe the qualifications for notability are found in WP:BLP, but a good rule of thumb is "extensive coverage in secondary sources" using WP:RS. Please note that self published and press relieces don't count for reliable sources. Now you have named a few sources in the AFD (article for deletion page), I would say encorperate them into the article itself. I believe you recieved a welcome template when you signed up (if you didn't I will get you one), if you havn't read through it take a look it gives great suggestions on how to format an article and put in citations. I personaly prefer non-timeline/non-bullet point writing because it gives a list of disjoined information which dosn't read well...but that is just a preferance, you will find those formats in articles on Wikipedia all the time. use what you are most comfortable with, and what reads best. For reformating I would suggest that you understand you are trying to tell a narritive of events, not a collection of facts. Facts are neccisary, however the "why should I be interested" question always is in the back of my mind when looking at articles (think human interest...if I am not interested I am much more inclined to think it isn't notable). You have been thrown into a malstrom early in your wiki carreer. AFD's are always confusing and chaotic, and involve a lot of wiki rhetoric and quoting of rules. Right now, it dosn't look good for your article from my perspective...and I am not shure what you can do to save it. What truly pains me, is that you are a good editor and you have the kind of instincts and tone that we need on wikipedia. Most people I have seen in your position bite at the nomination (which dosn't help their case at all), but you truly looked for help which I admire. Given the revisionist tradition in Rhetoric (great speeches are often rewriten in light of events that occured after the speech)(cisaro's speech to Cataline is a perfict example) please imagine that I gave a effective persuasive heartfelt appeal for you to continue editing after all this is said and done. The article is about you, but the AFD is about the article, not you. I hope this helped, feel free to contact me with further questions. Coffeepusher (talk) 20:20, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I tried to put in this citation, but it comes in as text... Licata, Elizabeth (March 18), Watch Out for a Computer That Talks Back, Buffalo, NY: The Buffalo News, pp. B9  the Hitochi Princess (talk) 21:22, 13 March 2008 (UTC)ShamanDhia

Did you use the "ref" bookends that are 3rd from the right on the first line of the Wiki Markup section in the box under the edit summary section?...they are also located as the last button on top of the edit box. they sometimes screw up.Coffeepusher (talk) 21:27, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Check the page - I just dont get it. Can you edit one reference correctly for me? I'll do the rest on my page. Thanks 161.38.223.246 (talk) 21:56, 13 March 2008 (UTC)ShamanDhia

ok, there you go. the first reference is taken care of. if you have any more problems please let me know, I will be glad to help you. additionaly, if you want to see examples of extensive references see the Public sphere page. I kinda rewrote the entire thing, and it is heavily footnoted.Coffeepusher (talk) 22:39, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Ok - I did what you did, but the "anchors" aren't working - shouldn't the page jump to the footnote or reference? Check my edits, please... and thanks so much for your time. Some of the editors are mean - plus in the habit of re-stating rules and skimming content. Your dyslx makes you more attentive in the way that you need to read everything to proceed - they're just skimming - either because their new or because their trying to do a lot of edits to get their points or ratings or whatever. Thanks for your attention - I'm doing ok with this, but honestly, if I wasn't writing about the stuff I know (me and my work) I could never interpret the copyright info or the editing - or anything. This has been a very helpful process for me - I know it takes time for you, and I appreciate that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.38.223.246 (talk) 23:33, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Yah, got me?!? I am just suposing it is a glitch in the formating, just wait for it to fix itself...because otherwise I have no idea what to do. the citations look good, and even if the ancors don't work, it dosn't really matter. as for your question about talk pages. every wikipedia page has a talk page. your talk page is used just like what we are doing, exchanging information between users. the pages themselves have talk pages to discuss the article (not the topic of the article like a forum, but just the editing of the article itself). See WP:TALK for more information. then you have the actuall wikipedia pages where the community discusses issues that affect wikipedia itself. the AFD's are one example, then we have pages where we discuss promoting people to Admin (they run the nuts and bolts of wikipedia) etc. the one common factor is that the discussion involves wikipedia itself. don't worry about contacting me, you happened to catch me at a good time, it is always good to help someone unfamiliar with wikipedia.Coffeepusher (talk) 23:52, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

There seems to be an inconsistency with the _note tags (top little #'s) and the _ref tags. (under references) it says in the code example.com|1| ... I'll wait on it, thanks. endnote vs. end_ref ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by ShamanDhia (talk • contribs) 00:40, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

ok, shure. honastly you probably know more about code than I do...Pascel was a mathamaticion and philosopher as far as I am conserned. so good luck on that...and if you figure it out, feel free to share your findings. I love info.Coffeepusher (talk) 00:45, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I just read your question about the endnotes again, and realised that I didn't answer it at all. check WP:REF and that probably has the information you are looking for about foonotes and endnotes. You are working hard, and I applaud you for that. even if the article dosn't stand, you are head and sholders above most people who have been on wikipedia for such a short time. revel in the now, and remember Changtzu's parable about the farmer "is it good? how do I know?". Feel free to contact me at any time...however for tonight I am going to bed.Coffeepusher (talk) 02:02, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

New ppl from visual arts are looking now - can you read my page again - I looked at the bio stuff and tried to write about the projects like you suggested...now more formatting and citations are necessary. Thanks 24.188.143.21 (talk) 19:06, 15 March 2008 (UTC)ShamanDhia

Thanks for your comment on my talk page - I tried my best, but not my hardest! My portrait picture is on my userpage, but the GOLEM image was deleted by someone. Why is one accepted on my portrait page, and one deleted... can I have a self-published picture on my userpage? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.38.223.246 (talk) 16:18, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I am not really the correct person to ask that question since the relm of images is vege and confusing to me (the map of that area of wikipedia states Here be dragons in my brain). However I may know some users who will be able to help you, I am in a time crunch for the next few hrs, however I will do some reserch and refer you to someone in a little bit.Coffeepusher (talk) 16:28, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Re: images

I have contact with a newcomer who has questions about image rules. she had a image that she holds the copyright to that got deleted and whants to know why. I have no idea about image rules (it really dosn't interest me to tell the truth) however I know you have been on for a while, and have experience in this area. her question is here [3], she has just goten her first article deleted, and has goten a crash cource in wikipedia policies in the prossess (to tell the context of our conversation). her name is the Hitochi Princess (talk) I hope that you are able to help her, she seems like a great new user who would be able to contribute to the project. Coffeepusher (talk) 23:52, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Without a link to the image, I'm lost :/ Will ^(talk) 00:01, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Three-revert rule

(this discussion refers to actions taken in order to stop 71.11.126.200 from adding this edit [4].)

(note that Stifle (talk) failed to give 71.11.126.200 the same warning, untill he read this comment on my page (over an hr. later, check the time stamp "20:44, 27 March 2008 (UTC)" and compare it to my time stamp)...I have my opinions and am a little upset by the whole situation.)

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Alcoholics Anonymous. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. Stifle (talk) 19:39, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

You have added this template to my page, and I kindly ask you to remove it. I was not engaged in an edit war, but rather removing content placed by another editor that was not supported by the citation that accompanied the edit (he disputed the accuracy of the study, and put his personal opinion about the study into the quotation accompaning it). if you look at the editors account you will notice that all of his edits have been pov and disruptive in nature, while I have never had a template added to my page untill now.Coffeepusher (talk) 19:50, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

additionaly I discussed issues on his talk page (added templates according to vandalism guidelines) so I did attempt to stop the situation (and was called a religious nut in the prossess)Coffeepusher (talk) 19:56, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

You may remove it if you wish (which will acknowledge that you have read it, but nothing else).

Reverts are only exempt from the three-revert rule in a very limited and specific set of circumstances. Uncited edits are not one of those circumstances except where they are negative and added to a biography of a living person. The three-revert rule is very specifically intended to stop bland reverting as an editing method, even with the best of intentions. Stifle (talk) 20:45, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

i read your comment, and appriciate it. however I do think that in this situation applying the 3RR rule to my edits (or even giving me a template) is in poor spirit. the sentance origionaly stated that "evidance has been found to support the use of Alcoholics Anonymous in treatment (paraphrase)" and it came with a citation. it was changed to "there is no scientific evidance to support the use of Alcoholics anonymous in treatment (again paraphrase)" and the origional citation was left. I do not understand how this isn't blatent vandalism, nor do I understand why we should discourage its removal. In short it really upset me that I was warned by an outside editor of wikipedia policies while I was defending the content of wikipedia from a POV vandal, and feel that while the template can be considered technacly correct, it ultimatly served as a distructive force for wikipedia (I will be much less inclined to defend wikipedia in the future). I have no idea what I am looking for here, since I doupt that either one of us will admit wrongdoing right now, but I am sorry that this is our first contact with each other.Coffeepusher (talk) 20:56, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Coffeepusher, don't template the regulars. Take a look at Special:Contributions/71.111.126.200. It's all vandalism. Coffeepusher does a lot of good work, and there's no reason to spam his talk page with templates -- especially if it means ignoring vandalism in progress. -- Scarpy (talk) 22:18, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your vote of confidence along with the kind words. I am under the opinion that my appeal got pigonholed (and any further complaints by me will be just Beating a dead horce. I took a look at this admins talk page, and it appears there are alot of 3RR template appeals. This leads me to believe he may be quick on the draw, but also doing a thankless job. from that pov, I was able to calm down and let it be (although I still believe he was misguided in my case).Coffeepusher (talk) 23:08, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Scarpy (talk) 3RR Report

(cut from Scarpy (talk) page)

Your current 3RR report looks malformed. It looks like the editor in question only changed the article once, then reverted twice. So first of all, this is only 2 reverts, not 4, which would be breaking WP:3RR. Second, the diffs you have given aren't all the diffs by the editor in question, at least one is you reverting the other editor. Might want to clean that up, or withdraw it. Gwynand (talk) 19:12, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

hay, I have a question. do you know why I was tagged for the 3RR in this prossess. you know more about policies than I do, but I viewed the entire situation as vandalism and thought the 3RR didn't apply to that.Coffeepusher (talk) 19:58, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Technically, it was a content dispute, although a closer reading of that user's edits would lean towards likely vandalism. You were template-warned over edit warring and the 3RR rule, but not punished for it, per se. Remember, 3RR is only an exception to the most simple and obvious vandalism, like page blanking or vulgar language. The other editors edits were more likely very POV, unsourced, and totally wrong, but technically not obvious vandalism. Just to be clear, I agree with you two on his edits being wrong, I'm just clarifying some things about the 3RR process. Gwynand (talk) 20:09, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I may have something to do with the diffs I included, I thought showing someone correcting a bad revert would be as good as showing the malicious revert. I don't know. It hate it when I report obvious vandalism, and the admins defend the vandal. -- Scarpy (talk) 19:59, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I replied on my talk page. Please assume good faith, I was just attempting to help you. Gwynand (talk) 20:09, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

::: I think your most recent comment on my talk page was not meant for me. I never templated anyone, nor warned you or Cofeepusher for 3RR. Would you mind removing it (I'm assuming it was intended for the admin you were dealing with in this case). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gwynand (talk • contribs) 23:27, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I didn't post anything on your page, I even checked the history and have no idea what you are talking about? could you please elaberate. (ps. I do understand in this whole fiasco you didn't do anything)Coffeepusher (talk) 23:33, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I am being obtuse. I struck through, the message was intended for Scarpy.Gwynand (talk) 23:35, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

AA Supporter?

(in relation to this comment [5].)

(conversation origionaly posted on PhGustaf (talk)'s page)

Now now, I thought I covered it up better than that?!?Coffeepusher (talk) 21:04, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

AA is all about bad coffee and cheap cookies. I still think the page needs a section about the hundreds if not thousands of bumper-sticker slogans that pass for "honesty" at meetings. Best wishes, your contributions are valued. PhGustaf (talk) 21:20, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree on the bumper sticker thing...I put it in the same catagory as sound bite politics. I just found it funny that you said somthing, and my first gut reflex was "no way, I am NPOV" but then after some thinking I figured that others would have a better view of any slant I may have, and laughed a little.Coffeepusher (talk) 21:42, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe in laughing as often and as loudly as possible. PhGustaf (talk) 21:58, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

AA as a cult

Hi, I notice from the Cult article that you have read the Alexander and Rollins study of AA as a cult. Can you tell me if the entry in the article Alcoholics Anonymous accurate to that study? It reads:

'Alexander and Rollins measured AA against criteria developed by Robert Jay Lifton, in his work on Thought Reform and concluded “AA uses all the methods of brain washing, which are also the methods employed by cults,” “It is our contention that AA is a cult."'

Particularly did they conclude the line: “It is our contention that AA is a cult.“

Let me know, if it doesn't match, we can change it.

Thanks very much. - Mr Miles (talk) Mr Miles 15:06, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Ok, the Alexander and Rollins concluded that AA used the same techniques that a researcher named Lifton identified as “thought reform” (brainwashing, but without the additional baggage that brainwashing holds) and those techniques where also used in cults. Now we get into the argument of wither that makes them a cult or not… Alexander and Rollins thought that any thought reform was negative and thus AA was a cult…while Kevin Wright (1997) in another study found that those techniques where seen as beneficial and thus AA wasn’t a cult. I actually added the text

“And Kevin [Wright], in a study of several members, concluded that although the [Lifton] techniques [were] present in the Alexander and Rollins study, the conclusion that AA was a cult was erroneous because AA bore little semblance to religious cults because the techniques appeared beneficial in AA.[6]^ Wright, K[B] (1997) "Shared Ideology in Alcoholics Anonymous: A Grounded Theory Approach". Journal of Health Communication, Volume 2, pp. 83–99” to the cult page, but it was rejected by the editors.

I hope this helps outCoffeepusher (talk) 16:38, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much Coffeepusher, that's great, I'm going to propose reinserting it. Mr Miles 16:38, 29 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr Miles (talk • contribs)

reverting AA page

please stop reverting well thought out and good faith edits (explaned on talk page) on alcoholics anonymous page. there are other wikipedia editors who should be given chance to write article. you spend to much time there and are almost vandalising by your edits. -SandymcT (talk) 09:04, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

there is a consensus that you need to go to the talk page and be civil to us when explaining your edits (I suspect that this is your second language, so you may not understand that your behavior on the talk page has been insulting and rude. hence my explination on how to bring up edits on the talk page in a constructive mannor). instead you have chosen to tell us "there is a problem and I fixed it my way since you guys couldn't do it". your edits arn't good faith because you are ignoring input from the community and refusing to bring your edits up for consensus. we do agree with those two points, however that does not give you licence to do change the page without input from the community. yes the changes need to be made, but we need to discuss what those changes are going to be (and it is obvious that your version is not the one that should be done). we are willing to work with you, however we are not willing to let you change the page however you want. since you want to quote wiki rules, read through the policies and you will see we run off of consensus (a common agreement from all interested editors) not just bold edits. either follow these sudjestions, or go away, your current behavior hasn't been constructive to either wikipedia or your own goals. Coffeepusher (talk) 16:33, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

AA Sandbox

Hi Coffeepusher, do you have any comments on the sandbox edit? Thanks. Mr Miles 22:20, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Scientology controversies

Hi there, when someone adds a tag to a page suggesting improvements, please don't just blindly revert, if you believe that tags aren't needed, please discuss this with the users in question and/or on the article talk page, try to gather consensus that those tags aren't necessary. If they are, please do leave them on the article and work with those with concerns to improve the article, if more people spent time improving articles instead of reverting each other, we could have articles that are considerably higher quality. Thanks for your time. (The diff in question [6] ) Nick (talk) 17:20, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

hay, I appreicate the message. Septer origionaly added the tags after he went on a rampage of deleting articles with the word "contriversy" in them (by redirect in this case) and after it was reverted he slaped all those tags on with no discussion. now he has added 10 tags, many of them don't make sence without more detailed information(how is the factuality disputed?, is the "manual of style" comment about contriversy a argument about the article in general, or is it refering to the "scientology reponce" section, there are already many sources why do we need more?, etc.) I am trying to assume good faith, but without detailed discussion it really looks like he arbitrarily slaped tags on to deface the article. (he hasn't contributed to any part of the article at all). also we have been having a discussion on the talk page, and the consensus has been to remove the tags.Coffeepusher (talk) 18:35, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

I would believe Sceptre is referring to the controversy section. I had a look on the talk page and there's not a great deal of comments, and as far as I can see, no indication on whether or not the tags have merits. Controversy sections are generally a bad idea, tends to pile all the negative commentary into one section and they can very quickly begin to dominate an article. It's best if the information is integrated into a more balanced article overall. You can never have to many sources, and if there's a claim, it's always best to have a source to back it up, inline style. If you know that some sources have information that is relevant to another section tagged with a {{fact}} template, add another reference. Nick (talk) 18:45, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

question on Scientology Controversy

Cirt, I understand your comment on the Scientology Controversy was addressed to both me and Will. You stated the discussion to this point was pointy. I wouldn't mind if you could elaberate on that (on my talk page). I didn't "think" I was beeing pointy, however obviously I was...and hearing how you personaly read the discussion would give me some insight into my own behavior (and improve my editing practices). for obvious reasons I am in the middle of it, so I can't see it as a whole. Coffeepusher (talk) 21:00, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Clarification

To clarify, no, the discussion is not pointy, though it is getting pointless. What is pointy is the placement of (11) count 'em, eleven tags at the top of an article, particularly after the article failed a WP:AfD. However I have neither the time nor the inclination to delve to deeply into that particular article at this point in time - but I left the note on the talk page because I noticed that the discussion was not constructive (and neither is the tag usage). 3 tags are plenty for that article, to alert other editors that it could use some attention/work. Cirt (talk) 21:11, 20 April 2008 (UTC)