Talk:Classical Nahuatl grammar

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This article falls within the scope of WikiProject Mesoamerica, a WikiProject interested in improving the encyclopaedic coverage and content of articles relating to pre-Columbian Mesoamerica, its civilizations, history, accomplishments and other topics. If you would like to help out, you are welcome to drop by the project page and/or leave a query at the project's talk page.
Resources and guidelines for editing Mesoamerica-related articles: Guidelines— Outline of suggested guidelines and editing conventions Resources— Selected resources and compendia of Mesoamerican sources and studies Citations— Bibliography and pre-filled citations for Mesoamerican sources Journals— Links to selected journals publishing Mesoamerican research, example citation templates Article listing— Inventory and watchlists of WP:MESO articles and their talk pages (Article Watchlist)—(Talkpage Watchlist) Worklists— Project worklists and activities
NB: Assessment ratings and other indicators given below are used by the Project in prioritising and managing its workload.
Start	This article has been rated as start-Class on the Project's quality scale.
Low	This article has been rated as low-importance on the Project's importance scale.
	This article is also supported by the WikiProject Aztec sub-project.
WikiProject Mesoamerica priority open tasks: (click "show" to expand) WikiProject Mesoamerica Open Tasklist: a shortlist of things you can do to help out. Queries welcomed here. (Project Main • Activities • Catalogue • Guidelines • Strategy• Tools and refs) edit | watch | purge NEWS and ANNOUNCEMENTS: → Mesoamerica, Maya civilization, Olmec, Palenque are WP:MESO collaboration targets of the moment. → Pre-filled citation templates for Mesoamerican sources at Citations. → Recently promoted to GA status: Yuri Knorosov, Nahuatl language, Charles Etienne Brasseur de Bourbourg. PROJECT ACTIVITIES: Meta-tasks and subprojects: • add project banner to articles • document Strategy • assign article ratings per the assessment scheme • add to Project references • collate images and maps • More... Categorisation: • develop full Category scheme • reorganise Cat:Mesoamerica contents • More category tasks... Templates: • {{Mesoamerica site infobox}} (create) • {{Mesoamerica ruler infobox}} (create) • {{Maya civilization}} (improve) • {{WP Mesoamerica}} project banner (populate) • More... ARTICLE TO-DO: Requested articles: • History of Mesoamerica • Chenes (Maya subregion & architectural style) • 260-day Mesoamerican calendar • List of Mesoamerican cultures • Hermann Beyer • Huastec civilization • Valley of Oaxaca • More... Expand from stub: • Calendar round • Chiapas highlands • Chilam Balam • Chol language • Trecena • Veintena • More... Cleanup/attention needed: • Domesticated plants of Mesoamerica • Gender in Mesoamerican cultures • History of Mesoamerica (Paleo-Indian) • Gender in Maya society • Olmec figurine • More... Improvement drive: Start-Class • Mesoamerican calendars • Mesoamerican chronology • Mixtec • Monte Albán • Toltec • Yucatán Peninsula • More... Improvement drive: B-Class • Chichen Itza • La Venta • Maya calendar • Maya civilization • Maya script • Olmec • Quetzalcoatl • More... Prepare for Quality reviews (GA, PR, FAC): • Mesoamerica • Mayan languages • Spanish conquest of Mexico • Palenque • Chunchucmil • More...

	This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Languages, an attempt at creating a standardized, informative, and easy-to-use resource about languages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.	language Portal
Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale.

	Mexico Portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Mexico, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Mexico on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class on the Project's quality scale. (If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.

Does the article discuss Nahuatl grammar or Classical Nahuatl grammar? Some of the information has been taken word for word from the original Nahuatl language article. Jobber 07:42, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Nahuatl is agroup of languages that doesnt share the same grammar. The former page nahuatl grammar discussed only classical nahuatl grammar. There is no such thing as an "overall" nahuatl grammar and a variety must be specified when describing its grammatical features, so classical nahuatl grammar is more precise. Classical nahuatl grammar is the best described variety of nahuatl and representative as giving a basic idea of the grammar of a nahuan language. --Maunus 20:25, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Saltillo

The main article makes reference to a sound known to the Spaniards as a saltillo but there does not seem to be an article in Wikipedia about a "saltillo" per se. In what way does the Spanish saltillo depart from a German glottal stop? Is the Spanish saltillo similar to some other kind of a stop, such as a velar stop? Does the glottal stop sometimes sound like an Arabic 'q' sound, uttered somewhat farther back in the throat? Although I have had the advantage of having talked to real Nawatl speakers, that was some time in the past, and I no longer have the opportunity to resolve the differences. Other readers of Wikipedia are likely to be in the same boat as I am. The article could be improved if a word or two were added, explaining the intended use of the Spanish 'saltillo' term.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.177.27.22 (talk • contribs)

[edit] Classical Nahuatl poetry?

Is there an article on Classical Nahuatl poetry somewhere in Wikipedia?

I am working on it. Untill now there is only mesoamerican literature and Aztec codices.

[edit] Orthography

I propose changing this article to use h rather than `/^ for the saltillo. The reasons being:

• It recognises the glottal stop as a consonant in its own right. The diacritic makes it look as though it's somehow a variation on the vowel. This is especially handy when you want to talk about the plural suffix, which consists of just a glottal stop.
• It's the closest thing to a standard orthography for Classical Nahuatl: it's used in J. Richard Andrews' Introduction to Classical Nahuatl, Francis Karttunen's Analytical Dictionary of Nahuatl, Alexis Wimmer's online Dictionnaire de la langue nahuatl classique, and David K. Jordan's online Nahuatl lessons.

--Ptcamn 07:59, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I oppose that suggestion for reasons I have stated several places already.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 10:14, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I support Ptcamn as that is the ortography currently used on the Nahuatl Wikipedia to create uniformity on Classical Nahuatl.--Fluence 16:32, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Therefore, for example "ten" is written "Mahtlāctli", not "Màtlāctli", "I", is written "Nehhuātl", not "Nèhuātl" and of course "Mixxoh" not "Mixxô". Also, there are some ortography matters I'd like to correct looking forward for a Huiquipedia compability such as "tlācatl" not "tlācātl" and "cihuātl", not "cīhuatl".--Fluence 19:42, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

If no objections as of July 3, I shall make the change.--Fluence 19:42, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I think we should probably move this discussion to a more central location. How about creating a Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Nahuatl)? --Ptcamn 06:55, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

A MoS for Nahuatl sounds a promising idea. At the very least, it would be useful to identify & set out competing orthographical conventions in the absence of any universal standard. --cjllw ʘ TALK 23:23, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

NB: a start of sorts on a 'style/terminology guide' for Aztec/Nahuatl articles was made a while ago at Wikipedia:WikiProject Aztec/Terminology, culled from prev. discussions on talkpgs but not much further developed. That may provide at least a platform to begin with.--cjllw ʘ TALK 00:43, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

my arguments against h are as follows: 1. it blurs the distinction between nahuatl variants with glottal stop and variants with /h/. 2.it causes confusion with the orthography of hu/uh for /w/ 3. it hinders recognition of words from classical texts that do not mark glottal stop by introducing extra letters into them. 4. I explicitly deny the need for uniformity with the nawatl wikipedia - just because they've made bad decisions we have no need to repeat them here. And otherwise I defer to what I have already stated at: Talk:Aztec#Let.27s_discuss_orthography. The issue with words like tlācatl and cihuātl is simply to not invent long vowels where there aren't any - the spellings cīhuatl and tlācātl should be considered simple spellign mistakes. ·Maunus· ·ƛ· 08:14, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

It may be confusing for some but it's easier to write. Is complicated enough with the macrons. It's too late to change h in 1824 articles into grave and circumflex accents. The Nāhuatl Huiquipedia should be the basis for the articles. And also, the macron mistakes were marked by the only native-Nahuatl speaker on Huiquipedia, Akapochtli, not by me. I'm not completely against but it would be our work on Huiquipedia to change every article, not yours. What I write there is based on this article, so if it's as "awful" as you said to Node ue, it's not my fault.--Fluence 03:32, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

There's no need to keep this article in line with the Nahuatl Wikipedia. We don't have to be constrained by the orthography the Nahuatl Wikipedia has chosen, nor they by us. --Ptcamn 06:55, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Also, Classical Nahuatl has no native speakers.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 04:55, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

PS. If a grave or circumflex accent rule should be placed, I think it would be more convenient only when two /h/ are found together. Then, "Mahtlāctli" would be the same and "Nehhuātl" would change to "Nèhuātl".--Fluence 03:37, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

No, of course it's no obbligatory. However, you'll have two different Classical Nahuatl languages and it'd be better a united uniformity with texts on Wikimedia.--Fluence 03:24, 8 July 2007 (UTC)