Talk:Church of Ireland

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[edit] Bono?

Should Bono be listed on this page, since on his page he is said to be: His father was Roman Catholic and his mother Protestant, and he was brought up with a strong religious faith but no attachment to any denomination. --Robert McKay 09:20, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

The only member of U2 who isn't 'in the blood' Church of Ireland is Larry Mullen. Having said that his life partner is and hails from a very well known C of I family. Bono is regarded locally where he lives as being 'in the fold' --JPatten 22:18, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

In the British TV show Bono's Millions, the childhood friend being interviewed ends the programme by saying that Bono will not be happy until the Pope is a Protestant. That humourous comment hints that his schoolfriends thought that he was more inclined to the Church of Ireland. Anyway, it would be better to also have him mentioned under Roman Catholicism than to remove him from the Church of Ireland. MnJWalker 00:36, 24 August 2005 (UTC)


Bono was raised Church of Ireland, meaning Paul Hewson was raised as an Anglican. It's not really that suprising many great cultural and political figures from the Republic of Ireland are Anglicans, including the first president of the Republic, Douglas Hyde.

[edit] autonomy

The Church of Ireland is an autonomous province of the Anglican Communion,

What does "autonomous" mean in this context? Is this "autonomy" in fact autocephaly? (I confess to suspecting so.) Michael Hardy 22:56, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

It means autonomous in the literal sense of the word -- nobody can tell it what to do. Of course it is autocephalous too. I confess that the eastern orthodox autonomy/autocephaly distinction made in autocephaly confuses me greatly; one would expect autonomy to be stronger than autocephaly. What term do the eastern orthodox churches use for a church with its own independent head (i.e. he doesn't have to report to anybody) but whose synods are not authorized to change the canons on their own? Doops | talk 23:40, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't know; maybe you could ask this question at Talk:autocephaly. Michael Hardy 01:23, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] History

Could I suggest that the history section is rejigged slightly? If there is any evidence of Christianity in England (excluding British slaves) before the 5th century, I haven't heard about it and I've read widely around the subject. By all means include the St. Philip story but one really ought to have a bit of historical accuracy in there. And I assume the 'unique calender' comment was a reference to the Easter controversy. That was sorted in southern Ireland in the 630s and by the mid eighth century it was a dead issue throughout Ireland. The Irish church was distinctive in the time of Colombanus, but the article suggests it was still as distinctive in the 12th century, and I'm not sure that's true.

If there is any evidence of Christianity in England (excluding British slaves) before the 5th century, I haven't heard about it and I've read widely around the subject. Um, Christianity was the official religion of the Roman Empire (including what we now call England) for its last few centuries of existence. But of course England wasn't England until the 5th century. Doops | talk 21:41, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Evidence of Christianity in England before 5th Century - Earliest written evidence is the presence of the Bishops of York, London, and Lincoln at the Synod of Arles (314), but there is evidence of Christian belief among soldiers stationed there and a Roman villa has been found with a room containing Christian symbols. Note to Doops. Christianity does not become the official religion of the Roman Empire until 380 just 30 years before the Roman occupation of "England" ended. Distinctive until 12th century - definitely so, principally through the approach to monasticism. liturgy, and ecclesiastical structures. This was brought to an end by St Malachy, while archbishop of Armagh. The Irish church actually continued to be ditinctive up until the time of the first post-Reformation cardinal, Paul Cullen. He inspired a move away from the "low-church" Catholicism of Ireland towards greater emphasis on ritual and beauty. Of course, this "low-church" Catholicism was (probably) largely the result of the political situation of Irish Catholics under English rule. MnJWalker 22:05, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Division of list

Would it be helpful to divide the list between the living and the dead? William Quill 09:52, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Oscar Wilde

In the list at the bottom it names 'Oscar Wilde, writer, but converted to Roman Catholicism on his deathbed.' If that is true that is beyond funny. Talk about a fitting end to Wilde's life. Brilliant. El Gringo 17:46, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proinsias Mac Aonghusa

Proinsias Mac Aonghusa was not a member of the Church of Ireland. He was a non practising Roman Catholic who happened to be married to a Church of Ireland member (Mrs Justice Catherine McGuinness).

[edit] JTDIRL

why do you delete my contributions to this page? merely linking up a page of Irish Anglicans to a Church of Ireland information page is not vandalism. Is this a case of hatred against Protestants?? —This unsigned comment was added by Wikidude1 (talk • contribs) 23:18, 17 March 2006.

The problem is that by including the category you are not "linking" a page of Irish Anglicans to this article, you are including this article in the category Irish Anglicans. This means that "Church of Ireland" is listed as an Irish Anglican, which obviously makes no sense. I will create a link to the category, but for future reference to do so you would use this code: [[:Category:Irish Anglicans]], i.e. add an extra colon before 'Category'.
Hope that's of some help, also please be careful before accusing somebody of bigotry - reverting an edit on a Protestant-related page is hardly evidence of anti-Protestant feeling. --Ryano 22:42, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

I would like to apologize to JTDIRL (I'm Sorry) for my hotheadedness. I don't think I will be contributing to Wikipedia anymore. --Wikidude1 22:45, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi Wikidude, please don't be put off, everybody has early setbacks like this! Stick around and I'm sure you'll be able to make a valuable contribution to Wikipedia. --Ryano 01:52, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Changes to Medieval History

I have substantialy re-written the paragraph on medival Irish church history, but keeping to its structure. The original owed more to Celtic romanticism than to current historical scholarship, especially with regard to the claims that Celtic Christianity was suppressed through Norman invasion. I might disagree with what Saint Malachy did, but he deserves the credit for changing the structures and liturgy of the Irish church. The changes also bring this article into line with the one on Henry II. As I have revised the importance given to Henry, I also removed the statement about the irony of the English bringing Ireland within the Roman fold.

Sorry forgot to sign this. MnJWalker 22:07, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Returning to this article after a long time I notice that almost all of the pre-Reformation history has been removed, if this points to an article on pre-Reformation Irish Christianity it should be cited and linked. The reference to Patrick is essential but the reference to Henry "In 1166, basing his action on the Papal Bull Laudabiliter, which was claimed to give him lordship over Ireland, Henry II of England came to Ireland and in 1171 made himself "Overlord" of Ireland" is irrelevant as it makes no mention of the church other than the pope's blessing. No mention is made of Norman Christianity, which presumably this sentence originally discussed. MnJWalker (talk) 04:04, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Anglicanism

A new WikiProject focussing on Anglicanism and the Anglican Communion has just been initiated: WikiProject Anglicanism. Our goal is to improve and expand Anglican-reltaed articles. If anyone (Anglican or non-Anglican) is interested, read over the project page and consider signing up. Cheers! Fishhead64 06:39, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rev Stephen Hilliard

'Alleged member of the IRA', gosh I had never heard of that before, I must be a complete innocent! Who 'Alleged' this?, I can't seem to find any more information on these allegations. Was it the Provos or the Old IRA? Seems a bit of a strang affiliation for a man of the cloth? Camaderry 10:26, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, I can't seem to find any source for this either. It originally came from an IP edit tracing back to the NI Libraries Proxy server, I'm removing it now, if anyone find a source we can add it back in (with reference obviously). I think it's a fairly serious allegation and needs a source. Cianhughes 23:52, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Norman Ireland and the edits on October 7

What is the connection between Henry II of England and Catholic Christianity in Ireland? The article doesn't say how much the Roman Christianity of the Norman Church differed from the previous Celtic church. Without explaining the change, other than saying the Normans usurped temporal authority, there is no point in an edit war over whether the Church Of Ireland heritage goes back through the Normans to the Synod of Whitby and then Patrick.

I am not being snarky: I really think the history should be explained in the article.

--Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 20:31, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Uniform format proposal

A proposal is being floated at the project page that there be a standard format for organising each article about national provinces of the Anglican Communion, including this one. Please consider participating in the straw vote and discussion. Cheers! Fishhead64 21:54, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chris de Burgh

Can we add him to the list of Irish Anglicans? Educated at Marlborough and TCD would indicate this.86.41.154.90 21:30, 28 February 2007 (UTC)--86.41.154.90 21:30, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I understand that Chris de Burgh is from a Church of Ireland background --JPatten 22:18, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes he used to read the Bible in a local parish, although I believe he stopped after his marriage difficulties, but this is just from memory. MnJWalker (talk) 03:48, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Small Question

Why is it assumed in this article that the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland pre reformation was the Church of Ireland. Surely the Church of Ireland was established as part of the reformation as a break from the Roman Catholic Church ? Niall123 22:36, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry? I don't quite understand the question. Doops | talk 23:13, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Just wondering why the Church of Ireland is assumed to be the continuation of the Christian Church in Ireland since the reformation and that the Roman Catholic Church is deemed to be the new kid on the block. Niall123 14:13, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Ah, OK. Well, of course they both consider themselves the continuation / neither one considers itself new. The article ought to reflect this; if not we can fix it. Doops | talk 16:05, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Oh, fair enough. Just wondering as there seems to be nothing about Catholicism in Ireland pre 1850 in Roman Catholicism in Ireland. Niall123 19:52, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Footnotes and References

These two sections appear to be duplicates of each other, bar a few words. Is this correct? 195.96.72.22 11:13, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that - they were duplicates, so I've removed the Footnotes section.--A bit iffy 11:52, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] TDs

How many TDs does the CofI have following the General Election? Martin Mansergh, Trevor Sargent....any others? Also is Sargent the first member of the Church of Ireland to lead a political party in the Republic? 86.41.149.130 13:55, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

The 8 June edition of the Church of Ireland Gazette lists three CofI TDs: Martin Mansergh, Trevor Sargent and Jan O'Sullivan. The article adds that there is one Presbyterian TD, Seymour Crawford. Millbanks 22:17, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Improper removal of {{Fact}} tag, unanswered

A user has removed two citation required tags, which had not been answered, on statements which are open to such tagging, being significant and currently unsupported:

some parishes, especially in middle-class areas of the larger cities, report significant numbers of Roman Catholics joining. A number of clergy originally ordained in the Roman Catholic Church have now become Church of Ireland clergy and many former Roman Catholics also put themselves forward for ordination after they have become members of the Church of Ireland.

This appears to have been done on the basis that the topic is sensitive, and that the tags were placed by a user unregistered or not logged-in at the time. As such users are quite free to edit, and sensitivity is not connected with verification, this is improper. Replacing tags. 217.118.66.2 13:26, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Incidentally, I personally do not doubt that RC's join the CoI, or CoI's the RCC (such as after the introduction of women priests), but with words like "many", and "significant numbers", a request for citation is fair, and the main issue here is with arbitrary tag removal. 217.118.66.25 13:34, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

How much of a citation is required for this kind of thing? There have been several references to individuals for instance in The Irish Times. Names in Ireland can point you in the right direction and scanning through the select vestry lists on many of the Dublin parishes can give you a very good rough indication. Is providing links to a few newspaper articles sufficient? I assure you that there are several instances of Ex RCS joining but this is a very very sensitive topic and beyond naming names what can you do? - not that I am suggesting this course of action by the way!--JPatten 17:28, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Conversion

Speaking of Ex RC's joining the C of I I saw this line under 'Irish Anglicans' 'Myles Dungan, RTÉ broadcaster and convert to the Church of Ireland '. As I understand it there is no such thing as a 'convert' from the RC church to the C of I as RC's are confirmed and are just accepted by the church. They are free to receive communion, sign up for Easter vestry if they so wish without going through any special processes, ceremonies or preparations. I am therefore proposing that this line should describe Myles Duncan as an ex-RC.--JPatten 11:19, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

That's interesting. In my Anglican Parish in Queensland, Aus., the officials referred to "converts" from various Protestant churches. Their baptisms were recognised, but they had to be confirmed into the Anglican Church. In the case of the RC Church, they had merely to be "received" since their confirmations were recognised. I think it was more than just being "accepted" though. Also I'm not sure what the form is when a RC priest joins the Anglican Church. I'll make enquiries.

When an Anglican priest goes over to to Rome and joins their priesthood, it's normally a very accelerated process, without years in a seminary. Millbanks 07:56, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Numbers

The main article refers to a "rare" increase in CoI numbers, but am I right in saying that numbers increased between 1996 and 2001 (the Census period) as well as between 2001 and 2006? Also it is said that in some recent years there have been more ordinations into the Church of Ireland than into the RC Church in Ireland, though I seen have no figures to prove it. (I now have, from The Irish Times this week. See article)Millbanks (talk) 22:40, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

It seems that growth in numbers is patchy, with some areas (eg greater Dublin) having significant increases, whereas in other parts of Ireland, numbers continue to decline, but again I have no evidence to support this and I doubt if the Census goes into this detail. As for former RCs becoming ordained ito the CofI, this is to some extent anecdotal, though I know of four in the combined dioceses in my part of Ireland. Millbanks 10:20, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

In fact, if you see the main article, the Census does go into considerable detail, and, as reported in the Church of Ireland Gazette, there is growth in every county in the Republic. Millbanks (talk) 18:37, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

It would be interesting to know what diocese you are in regarding ex RC (lay people)becoming C of I ordinands. I haven't counted up the ones in my diocese (Dublin & Glendalough) but I know two personally. One was involved in my local parish and the other I worked with. I also know another who is currently contemplating a vocation. I spoke to a clergyman recently who is suggesting (anecdotally of course) that up to 10% of the current C of I population are ex RC and he sees this number increasing as the old barriers drop. Certainly in Dublin the numbers are growing. In rural areas some of the old taboos will still be in effect. In Ferns diocese four of the Rectors are ex Roman Catholic priests and I understand there are several others around the country.I am not aware of any ex C of I priests who are now RC priests but there could be ex Church of England priests (or from other Anglican provinces) in Ireland that I am not aware of.

I think your point regarding the overall amount of ordinands being greater than the RC church is interesting and perhaps this is something you should take on yourself.--JPatten 10:59, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm in Ferns. Millbanks 21:05, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

If I am not mistaken the four clergy you refer to in Ferns are not ex-RC lay people who have gone forward for ordination but are ex RC priests.--JPatten 13:14, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't think we ought to name names, but I'm fairly sure that one CofI Rector in Ferns is a former RC lay person. Another is being trained at the moment. Millbanks 08:34, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

There seems to have been some tampering with this item. Someone attributes the increase in CofI numbers as being "largely" explained by the "great" number of "Anglican immigrants" (I've toned this down) and goes on to add "particularly ex-colonists from Africa". This latter claim is very dubious and I have deleted it. Looking at the census figures, some 2% of Irish Anglicans come from Africa, but these are highly likely to be black Africans, especially from Nigeria, where the Anglican church is strong. "Ex-colonists" are yesterday's people and are most unlikely to have descended in their droves on Ireland in the first decade of this century.

Incidentally, one set of census figures gives the Church of Ireland membership as 118,948 and another as 125,585. Millbanks 21:53, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I see the reference to Roman Catholics joining the C of I has been removed. I note the editor who removed them resides in the US and may not be aware of contemporary life in the Churhc of Ireland. It is my intention to revert this and provide citations--JPatten 16:55, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

My location or my awareness have nothing to do with the fact that someone requested a citation in June and I removed the STILL unsourced material four months later during a general clean up of the article. If you have a citation, be bold, if not do not add it back in based on your first hand awareness "of contemporary life in the Churhc (sic) of Ireland." -- SECisek 22:05, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Catholic and Reformed

Reverted and cited per: The Church of Ireland: About us -- SECisek 23:01, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Irish Anglicans

I've made a few additions to the list, but sometimes I like to check with you here before doing so. Anyhow, how about Alan Maybury, a professional footballer (soccer) curently playing in England but from a large Protestant family in Dublin? A more sensitive addition might be Daniel Day Lewis, English by birth, but I imagine a baptised Anglican who is now Irish, though somehow I suspect he might not like to be labelled CofI. The musician Shane Macgowan, also English born, was educated at the very Anglican Westminster school, but I'm not sure if he's Anglican himself. Millbanks 07:56, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Another suggestion is Alex Stevenson, Irish soccer international and a Dublin Protestant. Millbanks 08:00, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Denomination Info Box

There are going to be huge issues with this box throughout the anglican communion pages. This is going to create a POV nightmare here and I am removing it before it starts. Let's see what's here, shall we?

Orientation: Anglican Orientation? What is that? Neologisim from what I can tell. All in the communion would agree that we are Anglican. Orientation of one sort or another, on the other hand, is splitting the communion in two.

Founder: Henry VIII Christ was the founder, end of argument. St. Patrick before Henry. This is just wrong.

Origin: 1534 St Patrick wasn't alive then.

This box just is not a good fit for the C of I or probably any of the Anglican Churches. Thoughts? -- SECisek 05:01, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List

Members of the Church of Ireland include or have included:

I have moved it here. Thoughts? -- SECisek 19:23, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

What does "cruft" mean. It's in neither of the two dictionaries in my bookshelf. And why have you moved an important item from the main page to "Discussion"? Millbanks 21:59, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Cruft
Wikipedia talk:Lists as cruft magnets
I'd reconsider these too-broad lists...it looks like this list - involving HUGE numbers of Anglicans - was started, worked on for a little while, and then abandoned. Obviously this list will never come close to even being 50% complete, so I ask: what is the point of even having this list when a catagory would serve better? -- SECisek 18:27, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Silly?

Having an Offical names subsection is not silly, this is silly: Talk:Episcopal Church in the United States of America#Name. It is also unending and per the (now archived) discussion at the project page, I am in the process of standardizing all the pages in the communion. This article is still quite stubby, please add something rather then removing something. -- SECisek 23:59, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Please see my reply at Church of England. Thanks, Doops | talk 00:33, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Ditto. -- SECisek 01:28, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] synodical government

In the article, the claim is made, that the Church of Ireland was the second church in the Anglican Communion to establish synodical government. Rather than linking to synod, we have a red link, so it is not clear exactly what is meant by the term "synodical government" and whether the General Convention of the Episcopal Church counts as a form of synodical government in this sense of the term, but I suspect it does. When did the Anglican Church in Canada establish synodical government? The Scottisch Episcopal Church? Perhaps the Church of Ireland was only third or fourth?--Bhuck (talk) 07:41, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Just from memory it was definitely the second (I think this article or another claimed it was the first and I had corrected that to New Zealand). Anglican churches tended prior to the synodical developments to be governed by bishops' convocations, synodical government (in Anglican terms) is used to refer to the inclusion of priests and laity in the highest decision making body. MnJWalker (talk) 03:57, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Anglo Catholicism

The reduction of Irish bishoprics played an important role in the Assizes sermon of John Keble, kicking off the Oxford movement. Some mention of that should be here. Tb (talk) 03:14, 4 April 2008 (UTC)