Talk:Christianization of Lithuania
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| Comments | M.K. 10:34, 13 May 2007 (UTC) |
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[edit] Algirdas baptism
German sources do state, that he was never baptised and was burrried in a ceremonial fire pagan way. First mentions of "baptism" emerge only in late Russian chronicles, and are often interpreted as an attempt to "correct" important Russian nobles family line. Anyway if someone would find a valid reference this one would be acceptable.--Lokyz 11:16, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- It's suprising that you find some mentions of Olgierd in "German sources" at all. "A neat division of their dominions is illustrated by the fact, that Algirdas appears allmost only in East Slavic sources, whereas the Western chronicles are aware of Kęstutis only," - a Britannica quotation that was present in the Algirdas article, before it was crippled by some ignorant edits, with all vital facts about him expurgated in favour of cheap nationalism. --Ghirla-трёп- 11:23, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- Huh? Nope, it is not so - Herman von Warteberge describes his burial, Dlugosz also. The last even could ask Jogaila, who surely had to know, how his father was burried, don't you think? And as of gusts, I do not find Britanica the be most authoritative work on this period.--Lokyz 11:40, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- So you prefer Dlugosz, writing in the late 15th century and infamous for his ideological fables, to the 14th-century Slavic chronicles, just because they are Russian (or, to borrow your phrase, Rus'ian)? Why the Livonian Chronicle is more authoritative than its Russian counterparts - just because the Knights had little contact with Algirdas and knew him by hearsay? Furthermore, it'd be hard to understand their motivation in recording Algirdas' conversion to a rival faith, something which they were unable to achieve either by cunning or force. --Ghirla-трёп- 11:50, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- Algirdas was not baptized: See Rowell's book, [1] pages 130, 149. And I would love to see some solid & reliable references that Grand Duchy of Lithuania was successor of Kievan Rus'. Just because it took advantage of collapsed Kievan Rus' does not mean it was its successor. Renata 11:44, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- The great duchy known as Lithuania preserved major legal and administrative instututions of Kievan Rus' (such as Ruskaya Pravda), a favourite tenet of Antonovich, Grushevsky, and other 19th-century Ukrainian historians who penned a raft of monographs on the subject. I don't expect difficulty in referencing this. --Ghirla-трёп- 11:57, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
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- 19th century? Anything more recent? Renata 13:24, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, I do prefer Dlugosz and Warteberge. The first, because he was close to the Jagiellon dynasty (Algirdas vas Jogaila father, he has been directly talking to Sophia of Halshany, a daughter of Vytautas's brother-in-law and so on), the second because he was contemporary author. If you please could name exact Russia chronicle that mentions baptism of Algirdas, it would be superb, because for now we are talking about "some" chronicle vs Warterberge chronicle. BTW you might take a look into the map and find Maišiagala - it is roughly 100 km to nowadays Latvia and previously Livonia border. As for Germans denial of conversion you might be right, although the burial fact is also described in Polish Kingdom chronicle, and you would not say, that Livonia and Poland were the best friends at the time.
- The Algirdas baptism to my knowledge emerges in Karamzin's literature, and he is known to be court "historian" (or as hid did call himself "writer"), so his reliability isn't very high. Actually, i might be wrong, and that's why i did ask for references. I do not hve an intention to start fight, I'm just trying to understand your arguments.
- As for Ruskaya Pravda - I do not recall, that it had some legal status in Lithuania proper, Samogitia or nowadays Belarus lands. Legal tradition in some regions - this is not a state continuation.--Lokyz 12:05, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- You should distinguish between the grand duchy and Lithuania. The state called Lithuania spread westward as far as Mozhaisk. Russian chronicles are more informed about the state of affairs there, because there were so many marital and cultural ties: for instance, Vasily II of Moscow was Vitautas's grandson. Karamzin's reliability is higher than that of any historian writing during the same period. But that's not my point. Among chronicles that mention Olgierd's conversion are the Bychowiec Chronicle and the Hustynska; they even say that he was buried according to the Orthodox tradition. --Ghirla-трёп- 12:15, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- Bychowiec Chronicle is one of the least reliable (Palemonids anyone?), and btw it is dated 16th century. Sorry never heard about Hustynska (spelling maybe? could you write it's name in Cyrilic?) so I do not have an opinion.--Lokyz 12:30, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- You should distinguish between the grand duchy and Lithuania. The state called Lithuania spread westward as far as Mozhaisk. Russian chronicles are more informed about the state of affairs there, because there were so many marital and cultural ties: for instance, Vasily II of Moscow was Vitautas's grandson. Karamzin's reliability is higher than that of any historian writing during the same period. But that's not my point. Among chronicles that mention Olgierd's conversion are the Bychowiec Chronicle and the Hustynska; they even say that he was buried according to the Orthodox tradition. --Ghirla-трёп- 12:15, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
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- The great duchy known as Lithuania preserved major legal and administrative instututions of Kievan Rus' (such as Ruskaya Pravda), a favourite tenet of Antonovich, Grushevsky, and other 19th-century Ukrainian historians who penned a raft of monographs on the subject. I don't expect difficulty in referencing this. --Ghirla-трёп- 11:57, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- Huh? Nope, it is not so - Herman von Warteberge describes his burial, Dlugosz also. The last even could ask Jogaila, who surely had to know, how his father was burried, don't you think? And as of gusts, I do not find Britanica the be most authoritative work on this period.--Lokyz 11:40, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately, Bychowiec Chronicle is a fake in many occurences. And putting it like "some" suggest that there were more than two Orthodox dukes of Lithuania, which is not true, so the formulation as it is now is misleading to the reader. Now there are opposing facts in the same article about Algirdas - that he preferred to keep paganism. No christian ruler would do this and this, as described in the article Anthony, John, and Eustathios Iulius 12:26, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- You should check this edit before lecturing me on the merits of the Bychovets Chronicle as you spell it. But Dlugosz is hardly more reliable, for that matter. --Ghirla-трёп- 12:35, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- And did they mention Algirdas' baptismal name? isn't it a shame not to know a ruler's name? So I suggest before making such controversial sporadic additions, take time to solve the matter in the article where it belongs - Algirdas, not to contaminate them with dubious facts that give nothing to the reader Iulius 12:39, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- Yup Polish not reliable and Russian reliable and vice versa. This will hardly lead us to consensus. I'm affraid you did misunderstand me - I do not have an intention to teach someone or lecture anything. I thought we're discussing historical sources and reliabilty of them, not each other likes or dislikes. AFAIK - scientific discipline called history calls the fact reliable if it is repeated in another independent source. Hence Warteberge and Dlugosz improves each other reliability on the fact, that Algirdas was burned before burying him. We do not discuss relaibility of other facts. BTW, i cannot find any mentioning of Hustynska letopisj or chronicle. Can you help me?--Lokyz 13:09, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- How could that be explained that this article is the only that states Algirdas being an Orthodox, even though there are no evidence of his baptism? How about this contradicting citation: "For Gediminas and Algirdas, retention of paganism" Iulius 13:23, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] "Pagan" is awfully vague...
What was the religion of Lithuania before it was Christianized? I'm not seeing any mention of it in either this article or the main Lithuania one...
- I wanted to refer you to Baltic paganism but the page somehow redirects to Estonian mythology, although Estonians are not Balts and their pagan religion had little in common with that of Lithuania... --Ghirla-трёп- 17:27, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
