User talk:Ceriy

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User talk:Ceriy/Archive 1

Contents 1 1st Guards Armored Brigade 2 re:Baptist church image 3 Ukrainian Ground Forces 4 Ukrainian Ground Forces chart/structure 5 Marine Corps 6 Ukrainian Deployments 7 25th rifle division 8 Award 9 My RfA 10 Another one 11 Disputed fair use rationale for Image:FCKremin Kremenchuk.gif 12 Title of Soviet->Ukrainian formations 13 Pistol articles 14 WikiCookie

[edit] 1st Guards Armored Brigade

72-я гвардейская мотострелковая. Дивизия, находясь в составе 7-й гвардейской ОА, в 1946 г. была выведена из Чехословакии и постоянно дислоцировалась в г. Белая Церковь под Киевом. Входила в состав 1-й гвардейской ОА (одно время именовалась 9-й бригадой). Ни нумерация, ни состав полков после войны не изменились. Hi Ceriy - saw you were working on this. This is the Feskov book (Feskov et al, The Soviet Army in the Period of Cold War, Tomsk, 2004)'s Ru-lang text on 72 GMRD, of which Vad777's site says 272nd Tank Regt formed 1st Armd Bde. Best regards Buckshot06 19:52, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] re:Baptist church image

Thanks! Ostap 22:29, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ukrainian Ground Forces

Hi; I have begun to create an OrBat graphic of the Ukrainian Ground Forces as there is now enough information available. But one question remains: What is the strength of the regiments and battalions? Examples:

• 93rd Mechanized Brigade has 5 regiments and 8 battalions - if I take an average regiment size of 1000 men and an average battalion size of 500 men, then the Brigade has a strength of 9.000 men. This is too much for a Brigade.
• 25th Airborne Brigade has 4 battalions and 7 companies - with companies of around 100 men - the brigade has 2.700 men. This is the right size for a Brigade.

Now my question is: What symbol should I use for the regiments and battalions? As I see it the regiments should have the battalion symbol II and the units called battalions should have the company symbol I. But maybe you can help me and give me a better idea what strength symbol I should use. The units names I will copy 1 to 1 from wikipedia into the graphic - that means units named regiments will also be named regiment in the graphic. thanks, --noclador 22:48, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Hello Noclador, thanks for starting the graphic structure, it means a lot. I received your message but I thought I'd reply on Ceriy's page, as he knows much more about this then I do, therefore he can correct me if I'm wrong.

This confusion probably comes from the Ukrainian renaming of their structure (IE at some point they figured they'd call all the divisions brigades). Divisions (like the 93rd) were renamed brigades but their size didn't really change. But newer units (like the 25th) would be appropriately sized. I'll look through the sources given to see if I can find the correct numbers. Best regards, Bogdan 23:05, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the info Bogdan - now I begin to understand. As for now I created the graphic for the 6th Army Corps:

• As you can see two brigades are incomplete - as soon as you know what units belong to the 28th and 92nd Mechanized Brigades I will add these units.
• The units of the 55th Artillery Brigade are missing.

I haven't looked for those units yet.Ceriy 02:10, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

• Any idea what the Corps Units of the 6th Army Corps are?

I listed them as i found in http://www8.brinkster.com/vad777/sng/ukraine information there is collected from news articles and former and current officers. I put as many references as I could, and I'm still looking for other ones.Ceriy 02:10, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

• About the units size: 25th and 79th are fine - but 17th and 93rd I think it would be good to leave the names of the units as they are, but change all the symbols down by one: i.e for the regiments III -> II. I believe that this would reflect the units size better than the symbols now used.
• Some other questions:
  • Do you know which artillery systems the artillery units use? I.e. is the 869th Artillery Rgt. of the 17. Armored Brig. correctly represented by the Armored Self Propelled Artillery symbol? Or do I need to change it to another Artillery symbol?
  • Same question about the Anti-Aircraft units - are they correct like this? As it is now I use the Anti-Air MANPADS symbol for the 25th and 79th Brig. and the Anti-Air Missile symbol for the two heavy Brigades.
  • do you know what helicopters the Aviation Regiments use: Light, Medium, Heavy or Attack?

I will create separate articles for each of the AR, each of them is different from the other. It will be clear then. Mostly its only variants of Mi8 and Mi24.Ceriy 02:10, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

As you can see I have many questions about the equipment. I want to make sure that I choose the right symbol for each unit and the best way to find the correct symbol is to know what is the main equipment of the unit. Also I want to show the correct unit size (number of men - not combat strength) and therefore would like to know if you agree with my idea to downgrade the unit size symbols by one. I will do the 8th Army Corps and 13th Army Corps tomorrow - the more info I have the easier this will be. I guess that by tomorrow evening the graphic will be complete and than you will need to go over it and check it for errors. In the meantime, thanks for your help, --noclador 01:51, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Another question: The 91st Engineer Regiment is at the same time listed as unit of the 6th Army Corps (Ukraine) and as unit of the 92nd Mechanized Brigade (Ukraine). Which one is correct? --noclador 08:25, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Its under 92nd Brigade according to MoD.Ceriy 02:10, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi all; put my first thoughts in on this at user:Noclador talk, and Noclador's said the main discussion is on this page. I have to disagree; I would use combat power rather than size to produce formation symbols. For the divisions which are now called brigades, but with no change except changing the sign on the front of the HQ building, with three or four mechanised regiments each of several battalions, I would put an 'XX' sign on them, with a note - ON THE CHART ITSELF - and in every unit page, that this redesignation didn't result in a change in structure. I'm quite surprised somebody hasn't indicated this before.

For the new units, which are brigade sized -three to five combat manouvre battalions (or 3-5 artillery, 3-5 air defence etc), use a X sign. I will insert now on the Ukrainian Ground Forces page Bogdan's note about sizes. Buckshot06 15:15, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

The finished graphic - as soon as you three (as you are the experts on the Ukrainian Army) agree on any changes (i.e. Brigades with XX or X) or any additions/changes you want I will update the graphic immediately. --noclador 15:48, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

You're right Buckshot, it was kind of stupid of me not to mention the structural change in the article, thanks for putting it in there. When it comes to the sizing symbols, I'd have to agree that brigades which in no way differ from a division chould be given the division symbol (two stars). And newer rationally sized brigades should be given the brigade symbol (one star). Here are some other issues which I would like to address;

• Shouldn't the territorial commands be first in line after the land forces command as opposed to being idle at the top, in other words;
  • Land Forces Command>southern command>6th army corps>brigades
  • Land Forces Command>northern command>8th army corps>brigades
  • Land Forces Command>western command>13th army corps>brigades
• To answer some of your questions, the artillary units probably use self-propelled artillary (with the exception of D-30s), the self-propelled symbol should be fine.
• The Army aviation regiments use attack helicopters (Mi-24).

Obviously this would all be a whole lot easier if the ministry of defense published it's structures, instead of us (Ceriy) having to peice it together from deferent [different] sources. Great job Noclador, best regards, Bogdan 16:03, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Nice job with the graphics. I'm not even sure that all the information I have is current and if all those units exist. Divisions were sometimes renamed a brigade and sometimes the division was reorganized into 3 brigades. I will create an article showing size of all basic units for which I have information. Ex: Brigade, battalion, artillery units. (Size, subordinate units, equipment)Ceriy 02:10, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Alright then, I guess that solves that. Once Ceriy's done with the unit sizes thing we can notify Noclador and he'll update the graphic. If there's alot to be done Ceriy, feel free to just give me a link and I'll help you out. Regards, Bogdan 02:16, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I think that all of the units structure reflects late 90s early 2000s status. Since then the divisions and regiments were eliminated. The structure reflects the structure of the western armies with the exception of not having divisions and regiments. Corps>>Brigade>>Battalion>>Company>>Platoon>>Squad. Approximate size of the mechanized/airmobile/airborne brigades is 3,700-4,000 men, armored - 3,500. I'll finish translating the units composition to show what the structure of the brigades is. User:Ceriy/Sandbox/Ukrainian Units StructureCeriy (talk) 17:53, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ukrainian Ground Forces chart/structure

Yes, the Territorial commands should each have their army corps under them, but you Ceriy or Bogdan should change it- you know it better than me. Bogdan, could you list the brigades that should have two stars, and also tell me when these changes happened? Ceriy's also just established 6th Army Corps (Ukraine) which is really good, but it lists brigade/div changes in its history section which could use more information and references as well. Overall, great work everybody but just needs a little more tidying up and sources. Cheers Buckshot06 19:17, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Also Ceriy, may I add some Russian military terms to your Military terms userpage? Buckshot06 20:58, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Sure you can add them. It will make translations a lot easier. I will try clear up as much as I can.Ceriy 22:01, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi, some thoughts:

• I thought Southern/Eastern/Western command will be disbanded.
• Looking at the "division" sized brigades - that can't be right. As I understand the mechanized and armored Brigades are the ones that are division sized - that would mean 10 division sized units. If they are small divisions they probably have each like 9.000 soldiers... 10x 9.000 makes 90.000 troops plus 3x Airmobile Brigades of around 3.000 troops each and we have a minimum of 99.000 troops plus the Artillery Brigades and support units. That can not be - with a total Army strength of 125.000 men. I assume the 10 old brigades have around 5000-6000 troops each.
• Could someone of you write to the Ukrainian Armed Forces and request the needed information? (I do not speak/write Ukrainian or Russian). I did that and i.e. the Belgian and Israeli Army did send me even more than just the necessary information.
• I'm working on the UK and Iraqi Army now, but I keep an eye on this discussion. so in case, just let me know, what to change in the chart. --noclador 07:34, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I found an article which said in 2005 there were 13 brigades. The size of new brigades is about 3000. However, I don't know which brigades are reformed into the new structure and which ones aren't. During war times the old divisions would have had ~14000. troops and i don't know about peace time. I will write to the MoD and ask them for information. Ceriy 13:25, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

About the major units of the Ukrainian Ground Forces: Have a look at the white book of the Ukrainian Armed Forces page 91. It lists 2x Armored, 6x Mechanized, 3x Artillery, 1x Airmobile, 1x Airborne, 1x Rocket Artillery Brigade as the planned strength of the Ukrainian Ground Forces for 2007. The 79th Airmobile was founded last year so it isn't there yet. It also says that the strength is 88.500 men, 889 tanks, 2638 armored vehicles, 104 helicopters and 1128 artillery systems. I think this info is the most accurate we have. It also says that in the future there will be three Army Corps with each Corps having 5 Brigades (page 14 and page 37): 1 Armored, 2 Mechanized, 1 Airmobile/Airborne and 1 Artillery Brigade. This means that at the moment we miss 1 Armored Brigade, but have 2 mechanized Brigades to much in the chart.
Also the white paper states that the operational forces compromise 56% of the manpower which means that there are around 49.560 man in the operational forces, which means that there is not a single division sized brigade left! therefore also the regiments can not have much more than a battalion of troops and most likely the battalions have the strength of a company. --noclador 23:09, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Marine Corps

Hey Ceriy. Take a look at the world marine corps category. All the articles have names like Argentine Marine Corps, Brazilian Marine Corps, Chilean Marines Corps etc...How about we move Marine Corps (Ukraine) to Ukrainian Marine Corps? Regards, Bogdan ^що? 21:31, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your proposal. Feel free to make the move when you wish to do so.-- Ceriy (talk) 22:14, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ukrainian Deployments

Hello Ceriy, good idea for a list of the Ukrainian peacekeepers in different countries, but I just thought I'd ask. Doesn't Ukraine have any forces in Lebanon? Regards, Bogdan ^що? 04:31, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh, nevermind, looks like they left in August of 2006. Bogdan ^що? 04:42, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 25th rifle division

Hello Ceriy. Do you know which Ukrainian division became the successor of the Soviet 25th Rifle division? Was it disbanded? You can read about it here, on the RU-wikipedia. Regards, Bogdan ^що? 18:16, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

In 1997-99 it was 25th mechanized division according to "Військо України" magazines. It was later disbanded don't know when, most likely in early 2000s. I'll look into it when I have time.

• 25-я механизированная дивизия (Полтавская обл., Бывшая "Чапаевская". ЮОК)
• 25 омбр- Лубны,Полтавская ,8 АК- б.25 мд Ceriy (talk) 06:45, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Info from довідник А.Г.Ленского и М.М.Цыбина „Советские сухопутные войска в последний год существования СССР” (Санкт-Петербург, 2001) 25-я гвардейская мотострелковая Синельниковско-Будапештская Краснознаменная орденов Суворова и Богдана Хмельницкого дивизия им. В.И.Чапаева (Лубны)

На начало 1991 г. являлась скорее "обозначенным" формированием.

132-й гвардейский мотострелковый Краснознаменный орденов Суворова и Кутузова полк (Лубны): 10 Т-64; 9 БТР-60, 4 БМП (2 БМП-1, 2 БРМ-1К); 12 Д-30; 1 ПРП-3, 3 1В18, 1 - 1В19; 5 Р-145БМ, 2 ПУ-12; 1 МТ-55А

136-й гвардейский мотострелковый Краснознаменный полк (Лубны): вооружение аналогично вооружению 132-го гв. мсп

426-й гвардейский мотострелковый полк (Лубны): 10 Т-64; 21 БМП (19 БМП-1, 2 БРМ-1К); 3 БТР-60" 12 - 2С1 "Гвоздика"; 2 БМП-1КШ, 1 ПРП-3, 3 РХМ, 2 МТП-2; 4 Р-145БМ, 2 ПУ-12; 1 МТУ-20, 1 МТ-55А

280-й танковый полк (Гончаровское): 31 Т-64; 4 БМП (2 БМП-1, 2 БРМ-1К); 12 - 2С1 "Гвоздика"; 2 БМП-1КШ, 1 ПРП-3, 2 Р-145БМ, 2 ПУ-12; 2 МТ-55А; 29 МТ-ЛБТ

53-й гвардейский самоходно-артиллерийский полк (Лубны): 12 БМ-21 "Град"; 2 ПРП-3, 3 - 1В18, 1 - 1В19; 22 МТ-ЛБТ

1175-й зенитный ракетный полк

В составе 25-й гв. мсд также имелись:

- 130-й отдельный разведывательный батальон (Лубны): 17 БМП (10 БМП-1, 7 БРМ-1К), 6 БТР-60; 2Р-145БМ

- 34-й отдельный батальон связи (Лубны): 9Р-145БМ, 2 ПУ-12

- 28-й отдельный инженерно-саперный батальон (Лубны): 2 УР-67

- 1090-й отдельный батальон материального обеспечения

- 350-й отдельный ремонтно-восстановительный батальон

Всего на 19.XI.90 25-я гв. мсд располагала:

• 61 танками (Т-64);
• 50 БМП (35 БМП-1, 15 БРМ-1К);
• 9 БТР (БТР-60);
• 24 орудиями Д-30;
• 24 САУ 2С1 "Гвоздика";
• 12 РСЗО БМ-21 "Град"

Ceriy (talk) 06:51, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I've been looking at this, and I think we have to be careful we don't get confused between the 25th GUARDS 'Sinelkov-Budapest' Rifle Division and the 25th 'Chapayev' Rifle Division. The 25th 'Chapayev' Division appears from the Russian text of the article to have disbanded at the end of the war, and the name 'Chapayev' simply added to the honours of the 25th Guards 'Sinelkov-Budapest' Division (Feskov et al 2004 lists the 25th Guards in '45 with the name 'Sinelkov-Budapest in the name of VI Chapeyev'. So I'm thinking of writing a quick article for the 25th Guards Rifle Division and splitting off the end bit. Hope that contributes.. Buckshot06 (talk) 09:29, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Ceriy, that's much more than I needed to know :). Bogdan ^що? 20:55, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Award

		For Bravery - 3rd degree
		You are hereby awarded this Ukrainian National Award "For Bravery" for fearless contributions - which are often with images and referenced - on Ukraine-related topics and its military, such as 6th Army Corps (Ukraine), 3rd Army Aviation Regiment (Ukraine), 7th Army Aviation Regiment (Ukraine), 1st Armored Brigade (Ukraine), and 80th Airmobile Regiment (Ukraine). Salute!--Riurik(discuss) 06:01, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Congratulations! Bogdan ^що? 02:44, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the award.Ceriy (talk) 13:40, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] My RfA

Thanks for your support at my request for adminship, which passed today with 42/0/0! I would like to thank Wizardman for nominating me, Ceriy and everyone else for their support and comments. I'll continue with contributing to the encyclopedia's content (hopefully writing an FA here and there :) and will help out with admin-related tasks which you just entrusted me with. If you need any help, don't hesitate to ask! Thanks again, —dima/talk/ 01:50, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Another one

		The Order of Bohdan Khmelnytsky - 2nd degree
		You are hereby awarded the 2nd degree of "The Order of Bohdan Khmelnytsky" for continued quality contributions, such as 97th Mechanized Brigade (Ukraine), Ukrainian Armed Forces branch insignia (it must have taken forever to upload all those images), and articles about the Navy Orchestra and the Military Police. Salute!--Riurik(discuss) 01:18, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Truly, thanks for all your work. Bogdan ^що? 03:58, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the award, and for fixing details on those articles. Ceriy (talk) 04:22, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Also, what would you think about removing the 'ranks' category from the template:Ukrainian Armed Forces, and adding them, along with some of your recent articles into an expanded template:Military of Ukraine (to go at the bottom of pages, like so)? Bogdan ^що? 05:00, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

That looks good, I was thinking we would need some new template, the one you created is perfect. Ceriy (talk) 05:26, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed fair use rationale for Image:FCKremin Kremenchuk.gif

Thanks for uploading Image:FCKremin Kremenchuk.gif. However, there is a concern that the rationale you have provided for using this image under "fair use" may be invalid. Please read the instructions at Wikipedia:Non-free content carefully, then go to the image description page and clarify why you think the image qualifies for fair use. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If it is determined that the image does not qualify under fair use, it will be deleted within a couple of days according to our criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot (talk) 20:21, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Title of Soviet->Ukrainian formations

Hi Ceriy. I've been experimenting with the military unit infobox to make clearer the many changes of title in these units since WW2 and before. A first run is at 72nd Mechanized Brigade (Ukraine) at the top of the infobox for Ukrainian units- and you can see an earlier example at 90th Guards Tank Division. Do you have any problems with me applying this to all the Ukrainian units with Soviet histories? Regards Buckshot06 (talk) 05:44, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

No problem at all, it will make it a lot easier to show the history of the unit this way.Ceriy (talk) 06:29, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Any thoughts on this?--Riurik^(discuss) 06:57, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I think that we should keep the naming same was as it is done for all the soviet units. But if you and Buckshot06 can agree on your way to write names for Ukrainian units I don't have a problem with that way either.Ceriy (talk) 13:21, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, consistency is important, and I was not aware of the established soviet units standard "oldest-to-newest" ordering. I still think that it is more reader-friendly to have the title order be "current-to-oldest", but this is not something that affects the quality of the articles, and since you guys work on this regularly, I defer to you.--Riurik^(discuss) 17:45, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi Ceriy. Thanks for your note. Can you tell me which divisions became brigades in 1992? That'll make it easier. Hi Riurik. I started this process after a US editor mentioned on the main WPMILHIST talk page he applied it to 1st Rhode Island Regiment - that's the example I'm following. Regards Buckshot06 (talk) 22:17, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

97th, 161st. These I'm sure about. 15th and 127th, don't know dates, they were brigades in 97.Ceriy (talk) 03:29, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Ceriy. On the Ukrainian Ground Forces in general, I believe we should mention the disbanded formations in some way - otherwise we'll never mention the 161st for example, which I've hardly ever heard of up until now. Would it be OK if they were under the service branches - mechanised, armoured, airmobile, for example? Cheers Buckshot06 (talk) 07:56, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I think that we should do that on the service branch article, like Ukrainian Airmobile Forces, have a section labeled 1991-2004, and list all of the units which existed then in that list.Ceriy (talk) 13:09, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

That's a good idea. What about army and corps HQs though? Buckshot06 (talk) 23:41, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I was thinking of creating something like Formations of the United States Army.Ceriy (talk) 18:00, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

66th Mechanised. I think the entry should be under the titles the formation fought wars under - most historically notable period, so it's a question of the 293 RD or 66 GRD. But if you chose the 293, the history would cut off with 'redesignated 66 GRD'. So I would recommend you call it 66th Guards Rifle Division and put all the history, WW2-now, in the one place. Later, if there's enough for two articles, it can be split. (There is no need for a (Soviet Union) because nobody else had a 66th Guards Rifle Division) If you tell me where the article is, I'll help. Cheers and thanks Buckshot06 (talk) 21:27, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pistol articles

Great stuff! Thanks. IMO, the articles would greatly benefit from the pistol's images. I believe that since private possession of firearms of this type is mostly illegal in UA, we have a good case for a fairuse rationale since it is highly unlikely for a Wikipedian to be able to take a picture of this pistol whose distribution is severely limited and no one can require the Wikipedians to break a law and get themselves illegal firearms to satisfy the WP free image policies. --Irpen 19:32, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WikiCookie