Talk:Census divisions of Ontario

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The title for this article doesn't seem appropriate, as the term "census division" suggests that the divisions are arbitrarily set by Statistics Canada (in the same manner as census tracts, etc.); I know that the term is valid, but I think this should be at List of Ontario municipalities especially considering that these regions, counties, and districts, call themselves municipalities and it is the widely accepted (and understood) term.[1] Darkcore 21:03, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Municipalities is worse, because we have municipalities in Ontario (eg. Municipality of West Nipissing) and they are at the level of Census Subdivisions. We could call it list of Ontario divisions however, if that makes any sense. Earl Andrew 00:10, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, I see your point. Plus, now that I think of it, municipality applies more to bottom-level units (cities, towns) than it does counties (at least generally, even though they're both technically considered to be municipalities). I was also thinking List of Ontario regions, counties and districts but that's a little crazy. I think List of Ontario divisions is much too vague and could be easily misunderstood. I'm starting to think that List of Ontario regions, counties and districts is the best possible title for this article. Darkcore 00:25, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Well, census divisions is working with my whole national plan. I'm slowly adding pages to each census division in Canada. I just using the term census division is a lot more convenient, especially at the national level. Your idea is good, but you have to remember, there are also cities like Ottawa or Toronto that are their own census division, plus there are examples like Frontenac that are Management Units. Should we call it list of Ontario, regional municipalities, counties, districts, independent cities, and management units? Earl Andrew 00:57, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

What about, simply, List of Ontario top-level municipalities? I definitely understand the convenience of using census division, but I feel that it's way too ambiguous and confusing (not to mention incomprehensible--how many Canadians actually know what a census division is?) to the average reader. Darkcore 01:29, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Just as an aside, Frontenac Management Unit (actually, Frontenac Management Board) is obsolete. It is now Frontenac County.[2] Darkcore 11:37, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I did a bit of research into this. The county as a legal entity no longer exists, and it is still the same Frontenac Management Board that was created in 1998. They simply call themselves Frontenac County (I'm guessing for historical reasons), though the term county is not legally assigned to the Management Board. They also have extremely limited powers, with most upper-tier items being handled by the individual townships. Esentially, they're far more like a district than a county, but with the added responsibility of an Old Age Home north of Kingston and Land Ambulance service. Yet another Ontario jurisdiction that is not really a county, yet calls itself one. Snickerdo 09:05, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I'm now thinking that it might be appropriate to keep this page as is, but change List of Ontario counties from a redirect to this page, to an article devoted entirely to Ontario's upper-tier municipalities (regions and counties only). Darkcore 12:03, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

How about we make list of Ontario counties into a page on Ontario's county history. (Much like what I did/am trying to do with the list of Quebec counties). We can have pages like Ontario County, Ontario or Carleton County, Ontario, etc. Earl Andrew 14:42, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I don't have that much of an opinion on this either way, but shouldn't such pages be at List of historic Ontario counties or List of historic Quebec counties (or even just Historic counties of Ontario) so as not to confuse readers into thinking that such political divisions still exist? Darkcore 18:42, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps. On the Quebec page, I mentioned beside the link that they were historic. Oh, BTW lovely job with the clarification, I like it! :)

Earl Andrew 20:26, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Census division is the collective name for all regions including counties, districts, regional municipalities, etc. SD6-Agent 09:35, 2 May 2004 (UTC)

I just added:

Note that some single-tier towns and cities, such as Guelph and Brantford, are still in the same census division as the county they were once associated with, and are thus not listed separately below.

Which is quite true. Do we have a difinitive list of such things? I beleive Smiths Falls fits into this category as well, but I have not been able to confirm this anywhere, to my frustration... Radagast 19:14, Sep 16, 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Regional Municipality of Oxford County

The latest update of the Municipal Act (the same one that created the unicities of Hamilton, Haldimand, Norfolk, Greater Sudbury and Ottawa) also created the Regional Municipality of Oxford County, even though its popular title is still Oxford County and no reference to the RM is made. I added this information to the Oxford County page and moved Oxford County into the list of RMs on this page, but I'm afraid I don't know enough about the editing tools to modify that table at the bottom of the page. If someone wants to fill me in, or make the change, that'd be great. -- Snickerdo 05:57, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrite?

This article could probably use a bit of a re-write, but I don't want to do anything major until getting input from all the contributors to this article. As of 2001, there is legally no difference between a County, RM or District Municipality in Ontario - they're all legally considered 'Upper-Tier Municipalities,' though Oxford and Muskoka are legally considered a Regional Municipality for the purposes of legislation prior to 2001. The Ontario Municipal Act also makes specific reference to what each individual upper-tier municipality has jurisdiction over, and whether that jurisdiction is then passed down to the lower-tier municipalities (through non-exclusive agreement) or can only be handled exclusively by the upper-tier municipality. There is also no legal difference between townships, towns and cities from a Municipal Act standpoint, although certain legislation can make reference to a section that only applies based on the corporate status of a lower-tier municipality (e.g. the Highway Traffic Act applies a non-posted limit of 80KM/h to 'townships,' but 50KM/h to 'towns' and 'cities').

While discussed previously, this article should probably be split into two - Census Divisions of Ontario, which would list CAs and CMAs and their boundaries which are different from the municipalities, and then a new article called 'Municipal Structure of Ontario' that discusses single-tier, upper-tier and lower-tier municipalities, and the historic differences between Regions, Counties, Towns, Cities, Townships, etc.

Does anyone have any thought on this? I'd like to begin the changes some time over the Christmas weekend. -- Snickerdo 02:05, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

CA's anc CMA's have nothing to do with Census Divisions, but I like the idea of a municipal structure page. And dont forget this page: list of census subdivisions in Ontario Earl Andrew 02:39, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The only reason I believe there should be a re-write is because of how you can get a census division (e.g. Brant) that consists of two single-tier municipalities, or you can get another census division (e.g. Oxford) that's called a county but legally an RM prior to the whole difference being removed, and then you have Wellington which is an upper-tier municipality with a single-tier municipality within it that is still part of the census division. It's a bit confusing. The Census Divisions article can make reference to the actual census divisions, as well as the agglomerations and metro areas, and then the municipal structure article can make reference to just how the municipal system in Ontario works. -- Snickerdo 03:12, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Again I ask, what do agglomerations have to do with census divisions? Earl Andrew 04:36, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
You better clarify what you mean by a Census division, because census is handled by Statistics Canada, and Municipal Structure is handled by the Ministry of Municipal Affairs. They are not one and the same. By that same token, Niagara is NOT a Census division, but each municipality inside it is an individual census division on its own, when combined form a CMA. A page about census divisions talking about municipal strucutre, such as this one, just leads to confusion, since most of the information is out of date or doesn't apply. If you want to split hairs, that's fine by me, but there should be an article that talks about municipal structure, and an article that talks about the census divisions with no reference to how municipalities are handled in the province. -- Snickerdo 05:57, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Bah, I have a feeling that we're going to start debating like the previous section above. How about we just remove all the municipal-type information from the census division page, simply including the naming and historic information on Ontario's census divisions (perhaps even discussing the evolution of the divisions, etc) and then a new page for how municipal strucutre is handled, including single-level, upper-level, lower-level, the duties and responsibilities of each type, etc? -- Snickerdo 06:06, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] I've done quite a bit of work expanding the list

My work on the list of Single Tiers goes to 2005, there have been changes since then as more and more cities and towns become single tier all over Ontario. Someone can lend a hand to cross check for changes from the Ministry list and add new single-tiers on the main published list that would be greatWikiWoo 03:40, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Also the Double Tiered cities for Muskoka and Oxford is missing and someone can add those too.WikiWoo 03:40, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

This is an article about census divisions. You are adding things that are not census divisions. In addition, you are mistaking lower-tier municipalities for single-tier municipalities in many cases. You also have some very odd naming scheme--no town, (or city or township, or village for that matter) in Ontario has the name "Town of Single Tier [name]". OzLawyer 06:00, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of Ontario municipalities

Since WikiWoo is intent on creating a list of single-tier municipalities in Ontario (it's part of a tirade against Regional government), I have created a very basic list of all the incorporated municipalities in Ontario within the sections of single-tier municipalities, regional municipalities, counties, separated municipalities, and districts. This page currently resides at User:Osgoodelawyer/sandbox. I have advised WikiWoo that if this page is to be made into an article, it should be named List of Ontario municipalities. If he takes my advice, I'm sure the page could do with a lot of work from those working on this article. OzLawyer 15:52, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

The page has been created (by me), now sectioned into single- and dual-tier municipalities, with subsections for the types of municipalities (but little text besides the listing of municipalities--aside from WikiWoo's header). The page is very crowded and might do better being split into sub pages. OzLawyer 16:25, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Haldimand / Norfolk

It appears as though, according to the new map put out by StatsCan, that they are still together as a census division. Take a look at the map: http://geodepot.statcan.ca/Diss2006/Maps/Maps_Cartes/SGC-CGT/11_ON(s)_2006.pdf?series=CD-CSD&geography=11_ON%28s%29_2006&fileName=http%3A%2F%2Fgeodepot.statcan.ca%2FDiss2006%2FMaps%2FMaps_Cartes%2FSGC-CGT%2F11_ON%28s%29_2006.pdf -- Earl Andrew - talk 07:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

can anybody put the information that lists all the Counties and such with their populations into a chart that is sorted by population and such... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.46.141.18 (talk) 02:55, 9 December 2007 (UTC)