Talk:Aryan Brotherhood

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Contents 1 misrepresentation of them in the wiki entry 2 Fullmetal Alchemist 3 Suggestions 4 Disgraceful 5 Neutral POV needed 6 general tone 7 Rewrite 8 Dueling Sources 9 Tattoo

[edit] misrepresentation of them in the wiki entry

The ABs are not a political organization and are not aligned with groups like Aryan Nations etc. There are Jewish members, for example. They are basically at the top of the hierarchy of the white underground prison gang network in the US - especially the California and Federal prison systems. WHy does it say in the wiki entry that they are linked with the Aryan Nations or KKK or they commit hate crimes? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.130.236.127 (talk) 19:45, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

also apperently the arizone and california ab are hostile:

http://www.insideprison.com/prison_gang_profile_AB.asp

"The Aryan Brotherhood also operate in other states, such as the Arizona AB and the California AB, which are apparently hostile towards each other." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.207.239.81 (talk) 10:23, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fullmetal Alchemist

In the list of references to AB in culture, the Fullmetal Alchemist movie is included. While I haven't seen the movie and can't speak to the veracity of this, it sounds doubtful to me. Can anyone confirm?

Creationlaw 03:10, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay I'm gonna go ahead and delete it. Creationlaw 17:30, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestions

Further research into the location and activities of the Aryan Brotherhood would improve the article.JOJO

Predominately?? Shouldn't it be 100% since it's Aryan and all...

This article has no place in a WikiProject on Facism. The Aryan Brotherhood is a criminal prison gang, not a political one.

Second, the contention that the AB has ties to the White Supremacist Arayn Nations is at best, questionable. I would like to know the source and if it has been confirmed. The AB, again, is a criminal prison gang, not a political or religous group. What spiritual/religous beliefs they have are rooted more in their own interpetations of Nietszche than in Christian Identity. AB members tend not to like the political White supremacists in prison, as they have very different goals.

The statement that the AB has a presence in NY homeless shelters also needs to be looked at. I have never come across such a thing.

[edit] Disgraceful

This article is disgracefully written and it is a complete embarassment to wikipedia that it has allowed to stand as is for so long. It needs, to put it mildly, extreme revisions in order to make it even somewhat respectable. I plan on working on it and I hope others will join me. Stanley011 14:47, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

The New Yorker article mentions that one of the principal AB members, TD Bingham, is half Jewish and has a Star of David tattoo. Another member is named Tom Silverstein. This reinforces the argument that the AB is a prison gang rather than an "Aryan Nations"-style "extremist" group. Furthermore, having members of Mexican descent or with Spanish-sounding last names doesn't mean that a group has "non-White" members, since "Latino" is a cultural term and doesn't denote any particular race and many Mexicans are "White" as well.

[edit] Neutral POV needed

Discussions on this page may escalate into heated debate. Please try to keep a cool head when commenting here. See also: Wikipedia:Etiquette.

I would like to say this article certainly needed a more neutral POV edit. I am not knowledgeable in prison sociology or criminology, so I would not want to begin it.

The prose style by the writer is certainly very passionate and makes it an easy read. But this approach makes it impossible for opponents to fact correct without vandalizing the article.

In the spirit of Wiki I must call on both sides of the debate on this article to try to stick to a neutral POV.

Is a NPOV or POV seperation even posible here, due to the nature of the entry topic. --Pine oak 17:03, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] general tone

Does this sound like a love letter to the Aryan Brotherhood to anyone else? It sounds like it to me. me too! Natalie 16:31, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this article sounds like it is sympathizing with the Brotherhood.

[edit] Rewrite

This article seems kind of abandoned, so I'm going to work on it. Hopefully I can deal with some of the problems with the general tone. I also found some more internet sources, which should be helpful.Natalie 17:00, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I removed significant chunks of unsourced or poorly sourced information. Version before my edits can be found here: [1]. Natalie 19:25, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

the general tone earlier was actually taken from a book on gang tatoos: http://www.amazon.com/Gangs-Their-Tattoos-Identifying-Gangbangers/dp/1581600992/sr=8-1/qid=1162165034/ref=sr_1_1/002-5736522-0420068?ie=UTF8&s=books

click on "search inside the book"

also the Arizona ab is an offshoot of the original and main ab of california. So I wouldn't use it as a source.

It's true that any AZ groups are offshoots, but I don't think that makes the AZ DOC any less of a reliable source of information. Natalie 23:55, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

interesting on another forum I go to John greschner's wife posted:

I fail to see how this is relevant. Natalie 17:17, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I concur. Ford MF 17:28, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

it is relevant. From : http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/07/11/ap/national/mainD8IQ1CAO0.shtml

"Jurors heard accounts of dozens of murders and attempted murders, including one in which the attacker licked the dead man's blood from his hands while laughing hysterically."

That may be, but Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not Court TV. The point is to give an overview of the group, not a complete account of their crimes. Besides that, Wikipedia source policy does not list web forums as reliable sources. There's no way to prove that this person writing really is who he/she says they are. I mean, I could have written that - there's no way to know. Also, PLEASE sign your posts by typing ~~~~. Natalie 14:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dueling Sources

a documentary is being shown this sunday: http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/ET/popup/200703042000.html http://www.tvsquad.com/2007/01/30/national-geographic-goes-inside-the-aryan-brotherhood/

Neither John William King nor any of his associates were or are members of the Aryan Brotherhood. It seems like "Aryan Brotherhood" is becoming a generic catch-all term for any White prison gang, sort of like refering to everyone who rides a Harley Davidson as a "Hells Angel" See: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/special/jasper/king/228293.html "Sammy Buentello, assistant director of the Texas prison system's gang task force, said both King and Brewer had been monitored for possible affiliation with the Ku Klux Klan and the Confederate Knights of America (CKA), a skinhead group, while they were housed at the Beto I Unit in Tennessee Colony. But none of the three suspects was linked to membership in the Aryan Brotherhood, one of the most violent gangs operating inside the state prisons, Buentello added.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:John_William_King" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.27.203.131 (talk)

Another source disagrees with your source, which doesn't necessarily surprise me. This could be written as "John William King may have joined the Brotherhood in jail (source), but this assessment is disputed by Sammy Buentello, assistant director blah blah blah (source)." That seems like a good compromise to me. Natalie 22:09, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I guess it would depend on which source would be credible in terms of direct familiarity with both King and with gangs in the Texas state prison system. King's actual jailer, located in Texas, seems just a little more likely to have personal knowledge of the facts than an "analyst" for the SPLC that fails to cite sources, and relies on information from anonymous posters who purport to be somehow linked to AB-like groups while posting on the "Stormfront" website. It wouldn't be considered credible to just cite the anonymous "Stormfront" "internet warriors" as a source. Why should it be any different when SPLC does the same on their website? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.27.203.131 (talk)

Well, I disagree that King's jailer is an automatically more credible source than any journalist. The head of a prison easily can have an agenda to downplay gang activity, particularly in the case of someone who left jail and then proceeded to drag someone behind a pickup truck. Also, just because someone didn't directly join the Aryan Brotherhood doesn't mean they weren't influenced by the Brotherhood's actions while in jail (this interpretation has not been expressed in the article so far). Finally, while Wikipedia doesn't cite original research, it is completely unavoidable to not cite sources that use original research. The definition of a secondary work, which is what Wikipedia relies on for citatations, is one that uses primary sources to argue a point or tell a story (i.e. original research). In this particular case, I couldn't interview a jail official and publish the information here, but if a newspaper reporter does so and publishes that interview or part of it in a story, it becomes okay as a source.

Perhaps the solution here would be to just relay the information given by the sources and allow the reader to decide on their credibility, rather than making that judgment for them. Natalie 19:35, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Well... I never suggested that Mr. Buentello was "automatically [a] more credible source than any journalist." Furthermore, if you consider cribbings from anonymous posts on racist websites like "Stormfront" to be valid secondary sources, why don't we just throw objectivity out the window and surrender to the demons of subjectivity. The bottom line is, including reference to King in an article on the AB serves only for shock value and is needless distraction at best, particularly because of the notorious nature of his crime. Meanwhile, there is little or no credible evidence that he even came into contact with a PRISON GANG that is primarily based in the California and Federal systems while incarcerated in Texas. If "original research" is of any value, I attended the recent RICO trials of AB members in Southern California and heard numerous witnesses for the prosecution and the defense testify that AB is NOT affiliated with the "Aryan Nations", (KKK, nazi groups, etc.)and that their primary purpose is advancement of the gang's power base and economic interest behind bars. That included black gang members testifying for the defense that the AB war against the D.C. Blacks was "gang business" and not racially motivated. But then, maybe twisting the race angle makes it a little more spicy than just writing about a bunch of aging bullies and career criminals who have killed just as many white prisoners (including their own members) as blacks in order to advance their much more pragmatic agenda of drugs, money and power. BTW, don't forget: "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not Court TV. The point is to give an overview of the group, not a complete account of their crimes..." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.27.203.131 (talk • contribs).

You need to remember to calm down and assume good faith. But to respond to your comments:

1. To say the "King's actual jailer... seems just a little more likely to have personal knowledge of the facts" seems like you're saying he is a more credible source. That may be, or it may not be, but I don't think it's for either you or I to decide.
2. I did not, nor would I ever claim, that a threaded discussion group is a valid secondary source. I am saying that an article, in this case published in SPLC's magazine, is a secondary source that is using discussion group postings as primary sources.
3. The article does not claim that the Aryan Brotherhood is a purist white supremacy group, and notes their cooperation with Asian gangs, the Mexican Mafia, and other groups. However, the gang did start as a white supremacist organization and does use white supremacy and racism to recruit and motivate, so it cannot be ignored in a discussion of the Aryan Nations.

So far, the only complaint that you have made is about the murderers of James Byrd, but you also took out sourced information indicating that Aryan Brotherhood members commit hate crimes and other crimes when they are released from prison. I am going to restore that section, although I will leave the bit out about the King and his cohorts until this is resolved. And please sign your posts on talk pages. Natalie 00:33, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Im willing to bet he was part of the offshoot Texas Aryan Brotherhood: http://www.adl.org/learn/extremism_in_the_news/White_Supremacy/aryan_brotherhood_texas.htm?LEARN_Cat=Extremism&LEARN_SubCat=Extremism_in_the_News

"The Texas Aryan Brotherhood formed in the early 1980s as an offshoot of the (California-based) Aryan Brotherhood; it is an independent group with a presence in Texas and some neighboring states. In Texas, this violent group has more than 400 members. "

• In rsponse to yoour number 2, the aryian brotherhood didn't start off as a supremecy group. They aren't Neo-Nazi's or anything they even have founding members as Jews. The reason it's a caucasian gang is due to the fact that's what started it. It's similar to how you don't see whites in MS-13. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.234.82.253 (talk) 19:21, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I think you mean number 3 and can you provide a source for your assertion that some of the founding members were Jews. That seems highly implausible, considering it's a prison gang. Natalie 20:37, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Yep. We can. [2]. And as such I'm removing the Whire supremacy Line from the Infobox. WillSWC 20:55, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I was actually asking for a source that one of/some of the founding members was/were Jewish, which isn't mentioned on the site you provided. Perhaps it was in the show, though - I didn't watch it. The episode capsule also says "Outwardly a white power group", which indicates to me that white supremacy is one of their issues, just not the main issue. Perhaps an explanation of the nuance - that the group is ostensibly white supremacist but is more concerned with drug trafficking - is better than just removing white supremacy from their interests. National Geographic does not seem to be claiming that the AB is not in any way concerned with white supremacy. Natalie 21:20, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

It was "Outwardly a white power group" But as it was stressed time and time again in the show (Which i did watch), They're not a White Supremest Group. They're a Criminal Organization. This was stated by several ex-members of the Brotherhood including one who used to be rather high ranked withen the Brotherhood.(Like 3IC or something like that.) WillSWC (talk) 16:38, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tattoo

There is a strong tendency to avoid or hide distinctive tattoos in the Aryan Brotherhood now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.4.21 (talk) 15:22, 31 December 2007 (UTC) The Mara Salvatrucha are also avoiding tattoos now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.4.21 (talk) 10:13, 5 January 2008 (UTC) This is a general move, to prevent identification. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.145.157.255 (talk) 16:33, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Do you have a reliable source that discusses this phenomenon? At Wikipedia, we can't really take anyone's word for it, so if you don't have a source then the information probably can't be included. Natalie (talk) 18:45, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

At one time www.adl.org/hate_symbols, but this does not work now. Try the web.archive people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.4.21 (talk) 10:18, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

www.knowgangs.com might be useful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.4.21 (talk) 10:37, 22 January 2008 (UTC)