Talk:Airbus A380

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Good article Airbus A380 was one of the Engineering and technology good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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[edit] A-380 backwash

There's a part in the article claiming that the A-380 jetwash needs to be investigated for possible negative consequences, as the aircraft is heavier than the B-747. The engines on the A380 are of similar (or perhaps less?) thrust than those used on some models of B-777 aircraft (a plane that is some 12 years old), so this issue surely has been addressed in the past already and can be removed from the article?

87.210.35.24 (talk) 16:07, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Are you talking about Wake turbulence? THat has two sources, and discusses legitimate studies that were carried out and completed. It's history - it happened - there's no reason to remove that. If you're talking about something else, I couldn't find it. Btw, Boeing (not "B") 777 - 2 engines; A380 - 4 engines. I somehow doubt the "jetwash" is exactly the same form both planes. - BillCJ (talk) 17:48, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, to be more specific, I'm talking about this passage of text (with no citations) regarding ground vehicles:
"As of late 2005, there were concerns that the jet blast from the A380's engines could be dangerous to ground vehicles and airport terminal buildings, as more thrust is required to move its greater mass (560 t compared with 413 t for a 747). The FAA has established a commission to determine if new safety regulations seem necessary, and was to make appropriate recommendations to the ICAO. According to Wall Street Journal, "The debate is supposed to be entirely about safety, but industry officials and even some participants acknowledge that, at the very least, an overlay of diplomatic and trade tensions complicates matters." The FAA commission has stated it would not enact unilateral safeguards for the A380, only those imposed by the ICAO."
Many of these ground vehicles/terminal buildings have been exposed to the blast of the slightly more powerful 777 engines already.87.210.35.24 (talk) 18:27, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
The A380 has been in service for some time and there have been no reports of jet blast incidents. Our article doesn't need to cite thinly based concerns from years ago as a current or future problem. If some galoot gets blown across the runway by the 380's mighty pods and gets run over by a passing jumbo, then maybe we can bring it back. --Pete (talk) 21:23, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
The concerns were cited. cite info proving they they were unfounded. YOu can't just remove everything that disagrees with your "prefect" image of the A380. - BillCJ (talk) 23:45, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Well, of course not. But concerns are one thing. People are concerned, on waking up in the morning, that it might rain and spoil the picnic they have planned. And rightly so. Picnics are often rained out. But when the rain does not occur, just how much does our encyclopaedia need to include past worry and speculation of disasters that never happened? People come here seeking information, after all, and if we can find reports of baggagehandlers bowled over like ninepins, and service vehicles sent skittering sideways across the tarmac, then we should include them. But let us stick to facts, please! --Pete (talk) 00:22, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I notice some people want to keep this rubbish. This is 2005 speculation we're talking about here. Since then the A380 has flown in and out of airports all over the world and has been operating commercially for some months. Any reports of problems with the jetblast? Any reports of problems anywhere? If there are, then include them by all means. If there aren't, then maybe we can accept that the sky ain't falling in. Certainly our readers deserve facts, not speculation. As for cites, gimme fact cites, not Chicken Little. --Pete (talk) 01:04, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm asking you to revert yourself, or I will report you for revert warring, and request that you be blocked. The purpose of discussion is to come to a consensus, THEN to make changes. Removing cited material is disruptive, and not the way to handle disputes. Wikipedia is not about "facts", but about reporting what is printed in verifiable, reliable sources. In what dream world in the Wall Street Journal not a reliable source? It may be speculativen, but it is reported speculation, and there is a vast differences. Someone who genuinely wants "facts" would allow this to stand, and then CITE reliable sources showing the concerns were unfounded, not just use their own speculations to justify removing cited material. The A380 is a unique aircraft, and many had genuine concerns related to that. Stop trying to suppress every question and concern about the aircraft. - BillCJ (talk) 01:25, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
It may be speculative, but it is reported speculation, and there is a vast differences. Do tell? I don't care how much the Wall Street Journal wants (or rather wanted) to worry about Airbus and talk up potential disaster. Stick to the facts, not speculation from years ago. The A380 has demonstrated that jet blast is no more a problem than it is with any other aircraft. --Pete (talk) 01:40, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
The A380 has demonstrated that jet blast is no more a problem than it is with any other aircraft. - Another so-called "fact", but again, you don't back up anything you believe with reliable sources, but expect people to take your word for it because you love the A380 so much. Find a credible source, cite it, and prove what idiots the people who questioned the backwash were. Instead, you want to bury any critcism as if it never existed. That's not the way to fully cover anything. - BillCJ (talk) 01:59, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I can't find any reports of actual problems with A380 jetblast in the years it has been flying, and I can't make them up just to satisfy you. Be reasonable. --Pete (talk) 02:04, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
You haven't got a clue if you actually think that's what I've been asking for! - BillCJ (talk) 02:09, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I never thought you were. The fact is that there are no reports of problems with A380 jetblast. But you want our article to include speculation from 2005. Speculation which has not proven accurate. Why? --Pete (talk) 02:16, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
"The A380 has demonstrated that jet blast is no more a problem than it is with any other aircraft. - Another so-called "fact", but again, you don't back up anything you believe with reliable sources, but expect people to take your word for it because you love the A380 so much."
The fact is that some models of Boeing 777 aircraft that have been in use for years use engines that are more powerful (you can look it up) than the engines used on the A380. So it's really a moot point when one looks at the facts. Any airports that can deal with 777 jet blast can put up with A380 jet blast. And the 777 has been in service for years without jetblast problems. The A380 so far has had no jetblast problems either. So... I really don't understand what the passage about jet blast is needed for. I don't think speculation in a Wall Street Journal (not known aviation buffs, but we'll ignore that) article from before the plane had yet been certified or launched is merited in this article. I don't love Airbus or Boeing, just trying to get this sorted out. 87.210.35.24 (talk) 02:37, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Again: 777 - TWO engines; A380 - FOUR! - BillCJ (talk) 03:07, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Jet blast on buildings etcetera has to do with the thrust per engine, not the number of engines, nor the weight of the plane (which is also incorrectly referred to in the article). The 777 is a large plane with two very large engines (the biggest of all airliners), the A380 is a very large plane with four large engines. The 777, with the biggest (highest thrust) engines of all, has operated without jet blast problems for over a decade. That's a fact. This is similar to how people were concerned that the increased weight of the A380 would impact airport runways and taxiways simply by looking at it's greater weight, but forgetting that the wheel layout of the A380 has similar/less imprint per wheel than the 747. 87.210.35.24 (talk) 12:27, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
You know, I'm sure there are a lot of sourced items in the article about aspects of the A380 that later did not pan out or proved to be false. Let's pretend no criticism of the A380 ever existed if those criticisms proved to be unfounded. And this for a plane that has ONE aircraft in regular service for less than 3 months. But of course we know if it hasn't happened in that time, then it conclusively proves those problems never will happen! If we get rid of all those for the same reasons you're claiming here, the article will be a lot shorter. Since it's too long anyway, have at it! I await the results eagerly! - BillCJ (talk) 03:07, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Calm down, please. The A380 has been flying for two and a half years, multiple aircraft have visited airports all over the world, it's been in operational service for several months. If jetblast is a problem then someone, somewhere, would have made a fuss. It would have been front page news. And, if it somehow does become a problem, then we'll include it in our article. But speculation dating from before the aircraft flew that proves to have been, so far at least, baseless, well it doesn't really tell the reader seeking information about the actual aircraft anything much. Why don't you kick off a new article on criticism of the A380? There has been scads of that, some valid, some scaremongering, and the paper conflict is worthy of note. --Pete (talk) 05:14, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Please don't patronize me by pretending my comments are somehow inappropriate because you think I'm not calm. I done arguing with you. Next time you remove sourced material, I'll report you to AIN, and let them sort it out. - BillCJ (talk) 06:01, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
You used too many exclamation marks for a calm person. Just because something has a source, it doesn't mean that it is useful or encyclopaedic. The speculation of 2005 was probably valid for the article of 2005, before the aircraft had flown or been tested or entered service. But time has moved on, we know the answers to many of the questions posed by the A380, and the article has likewise moved on. --Pete (talk) 06:23, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Wake turbulence has less to do with the engines and more with the size of the wings. It is a fact the A380 produces greater wake turbulence than the 747. The ICAO has already issued interim spacing guidelines to deal with the issue. See http://www.ig-oekoflughafen.de/down06/ICAO_A380-Abstand.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by Downtrip (talk • contribs) 04:40, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] No Deliveries in 2008

On the chart it says that there has been one plane Deliveries on 2008. That is not right there was one in 2007 but, not 2008. I changed it and a 147.252.91.58 changed it back.AdmRiley (talk) 18:43, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Second one was delivered to Singapore Airlines on Jan 11th (see: http://www.airbus.com/en/presscentre/pressreleases/pressreleases_items/08_01_11_delivery_2nd_a380_sia.html) Whale plane (talk) 19:18, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Incidents

Just deleted the 11 January Singapore incident again as it appears to be minor non-notable incident (no injuries, no damage). Just wanted to get concensus on inclusion because it will be added again! MilborneOne (talk) 08:58, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

This seems much more newsworthy :) --MoRsE (talk) 09:10, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
If that incident is being re-added repeatedly, what does it say about notability? Clearly users who glance at this article will be wondering why it makes no mention on something which is being widely reported.--Huaiwei (talk) 14:24, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
Do you know how often incidents such as the 10th Jan one (it was on the 10th, not the 11th) happen? To aircraft all the time all over the world. All the other airliner pages don't have all these ridiculously minor incidents reported on them, why should the A380 be any different? Check some of the pilots forums to see just how common that is. Planes have a minor mishap all the time, bits falling off engines, having to return for maintenance, aborted flight plans, but they're not mentioned. Ben W Bell talk 14:30, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
Precisely. For all its regularity, could you then explain why this particular incident generates news reports by all major news agencies (Reuters AFP CNN BBC Xinhua CNA WSJ PA Flight International etc etc), and even gets telecast on the news bulletin on national TV in Singapore? I read forums like airliners.net pretty often, and apparantly they have a thread dedicated to this incident [1], generating 72 posts and 20044 views at time of writing this post (and 20000 views happens to be the highest amongst all the threads in that page).--Huaiwei (talk) 15:43, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
I think the media interest make it newsworthy on the day it happens but that still does not make it notable for an encyclopedia. MilborneOne (talk) 16:12, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
I strongly support the removal of this incident. The media have to fill the newspapers and your TV screen every day so such incidents are made much of by them. But WP is not "the media" and has different rules. Try to imagine the length of the Notable Incidents section for the A380 in a few years if such incidents were reported in the article! -Adrian Pingstone (talk) 18:02, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
IMHO, this feels just like paparazzism, every single small, whatever insignificant thing that happens to this Britney Spears/Lady Di of the air must be reported. Not so! --MoRsE (talk) 18:56, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
Next we'll be reporting on the time a baggage handler got a duffle bag jammed in the door. If it didn't cause substantial damage and doesn't reflect on the A380's safety record, it's a non-incident.--Father Goose (talk) 19:47, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for reverting my edit with the reason "sorry but media coverage does not made this a noteable incident", however I must object. I totally agree that we should not, of course, report every baggage jam, neither should we report all the accidents like this during the year. But this was a) the first incident ever, b) A380 is by no means a common, "yet another" airplane, c) the incident proves the concerns that airports and the equipment there may not be ready to accomodate that heavy an airplane, and d) yes, it makes it notable if it was very widely reported even by major news agencies and discussed. Your objections and arguments are welcome. --Anthony Ivanoff (talk) 23:17, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] When is the next model going to come in?

When is the next model going to come in? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.196.3.108 (talk) 19:34, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Inconsistent design range

The "Design" section stats folloving: The design range for the -800 model is 15,200 km (8,200 nmi).[5] But under the "Specifications" section it stats 17,400 kilometer for the A380-800 version.

Can anyone with more knowlegde than me make an assesment of this semingly inconsistent design data. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.252.56.15 (talk) 21:08, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Biofuel A380?

Can someone explain if there´s a big difference with the flight on the 1st of february 2008 and the Tu-155 project? The Tu-155 project only run one engine with alternative fuel what about the A380? I can´t access the airbus link #16 nor any other of their links. RGDS Alexmcfire —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexmcfire (talk • contribs) 01:20, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Orders and deliveries

Hello, I wrote in the discussion of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Airbus_A380_orders_and_deliveries, but there is no feedback yet. This would also have implications here.

"Don't you think, it would be better only to show the firm orders? I think the MOU/LOI/Announcements could have a place in the "Orders and commitments sorted by chronology" list (not adding to the totals), but not included elsewhere (totals, diagrams, lists) until firmed. It's not firm until in the books. Some MOU/LOI/announcements need a lot of time to be firmed, sometimes they get not firmed at all. If there is no reason to do otherwise I would change those items. I was not logged:Cirrocumulus (talk) 15:42, 13 February 2008 (UTC)"

Airbus claims only 189 orders, the others are not firm yet. Let's keep it simple and safe, only firm orders here.Cirrocumulus (talk) 10:34, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable to me.--Father Goose (talk) 20:21, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

How firm is firm? Is the official press release from EADS enough? Then we could get ride off this " of which 189 were firm as of 31 December 2007.[72]" or should we wait for the monthly release?Cirrocumulus (talk) 14:16, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I turn the matter over to you, since I have not scrutinized the numbers myself. I recommend you just make the changes as you propose and if someone contests them, you will know who your interested parties are (see WP:BRD).--Father Goose (talk) 23:00, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] External links

Are all the external links needed? they include links to 12 images sites and five video sites as well as some unofficial sites which do not all add more detailed information for the reader. Is is time to get rid of most of them as wikipedia is not a list of links. MilborneOne (talk) 21:17, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] References

  • Have copy some of the pthotolinks to "List of Airbus A380 orders and deliveries" page. If OK ther its only to delete them om the main page. Also som werry strange links shood evaluate if ther shood be removed. I also dislike the 97 references sometime werry week and werry ofen not nesesery. I hope some its eagar enuth to delete some off them and keep the most relevan with the facts and not the all citeiting in newspapers hwo writing werry mutch unrealistic things. The German have 35, the Franch have 56 is it nesesery with twise on the Englich page ?? MW 85.225.96.49 (talk) 00:54, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Sorry some did not like that "Denniss (Talk | contribs) (Undid revision 193597028 by 85.225.96.49 (talk))" MW 85.225.96.49 (talk) 00:59, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Every statement or group of related statements in the article is accompanied by the source where that information came from. This is the standard to which all articles on Wikipedia should be held, when possible. Your hostility toward proper sourcing is inexplicable.--Father Goose (talk) 04:31, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Not sure that the comments above related to my question on external links. added divider. MilborneOne (talk) 10:03, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reduction of text

The article is very long and not all information is really relevant. I propose to: eliminate following text in "orders and deliveries":

a)The first private buyer of an A380 for personal use is Saudi Prince Alwaleed bin Talal, who reportedly spent only fifteen minutes on the plane before deciding to put one under contract.[73][74]
b)Industry sources have stated that the United States Air Force Air Mobility Command is looking into possibly purchasing the A380 as a replacement for the aging Boeing 747s in the role of presidential transport. The USAF may also be interested in a military version of the A380F as a strategic transport aircraft, replacing the C-5 Galaxy.[75]

Reasons: a is not very relevant, b is a possibility, not more than that.Cirrocumulus (talk) 08:01, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I deleted the text as there was no objectionCirrocumulus (talk) 09:16, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Adding "Market", reducing "Orders and Deliveries"

I edited a new text for Market, at the same time reduced orders and deliveries. Please take a view at my sandbox [2], feel free to correct my english, and discuss it, thanks!Cirrocumulus (talk) 10:53, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, there are no comments there, I will place the new text and wait for reactions here. Maybe a native speaker or similar qualified person take a detailed look, thanks!Cirrocumulus (talk) 08:28, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wrong picture!

The airplane in the photograph is not an A-380, someone please quickly correct this subtle vandalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.181.120.61 (talk) 03:23, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

There are 8 photos of the A380 in the article. Did you have a particular one in mind? They all look correct to me. - BillCJ (talk) 05:26, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Deliveries delay - reduced text

Hello, I propose a reduced and actualized version for this section. Please take a view at my sandbox[[3]], thanks!Cirrocumulus (talk) 10:13, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Text is included here yet.Cirrocumulus (talk) 09:08, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, you removed the weight issue without mentioning that. Why does this

While Airbus attributes the delays entirely to wiring, industry analyst Richard Aboulafia, speculated that weight reduction efforts were also involved.[1]

have to be confirmed to be included? It clearly states what it is. And how can you say this was not a factor at all? Also, the heavier first A380 should be mentioned in the article at least. -Fnlayson (talk) 12:16, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

If this was a speculation (and this is as it is described), then it has to be confirmed (I don't see the reason to cites speculation in an article, also not needed if he was wrong). I looked really to find it out, and I didn't find it in any other publication. In the document of Heinen is not a mention about this. While the A380 is (slightly) overweight, this was not a cause of delays. The rewiring efforts are still be doing today, any other thing was not the cause of these delays. That is my point. And yes, I think it (the overweight) should be mentioned somewhere too. I'm looking for the data. Cirrocumulus (talk) 12:33, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

What I found: A380 at rollout 5,500kg overweight (empty weight 361,000kg= 2,0%) As comparison, the 787-9 has 6,350 kg overweight (months after rollout) (empty weight 115,200 kg= 5,5%)(http://www.atwonline.com/news/other.html?issueDate=11/12/2007)

What Aboulafia said: ""This is big news," he said of the revelation by Clark that the A380 is 5.5 tons too heavy"...""This goes a long way in explaining the delay," Aboulafia said. "Wiring alone did not explain what we were all hearing. It sounds like weight-reduction design changes are a big part of the delay, too.""(http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/290276_airbus28.html) If it was the cause for the delays, then yet should be a lot less of overweight (is it?). Aboulafia has aparently no more information to support this than what Clark said. "it sounds like" hardly qualifies as verifiable information.Cirrocumulus (talk) 13:56, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

  • OK, just speculation by 1 person on the causes. No doubt they worked on the reducing weight during the delay because they could, not had to. The 787 article covers its weight issues. Doesn't seem that relevant to the A380. -Fnlayson (talk) 14:09, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] So how long was the delivery delay?

Despite 3 paragraphs of text, all I could distill is:

Airbus announced the first delay in June 2005 and notified airlines that delivery would slip by six months
On 13 June 2006, Airbus announced a second delay, with the delivery schedule undergoing an additional shift of six to seven months
On 3 October 2006 [...] announced a third delay, pushing the first delivery to October 2007

There's not enough information to work out what the delay was - no dates are mentioned for the first two delays, and only the final delivery date is mentioned for the third. So does anybody know what the total delivery delay was? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.199.76.163 (talk) 10:40, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Good point, I'll try to find it out. It is not trivial, the one is the first delivery delay, apparently from end 2006 to end 2007. The other is the average delay, due to a slower ramp up, similar to the 787.Cirrocumulus (talk) 16:17, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Test image

I think this image Image:IABG_Versuchsaufbau_Airbus_A380_5-1024.jpg should be removed to unclog the images in the Testing section. For a thumbnail, the test A380 is barely visible through the surrounding test hardware. What do you think about this? Also, this image is on Commons and can be found by following the Commons link. -Fnlayson (talk) 22:46, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

yes, I thought the sameCirrocumulus (talk) 06:44, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
I did change that, I think it looks better so. If not we could revert itCirrocumulus (talk) 08:43, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Yes, less crowded, much better. Thanks. -Fnlayson (talk) 15:48, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

The sections are grouped better now too. I thought Market section was projecting about future orders. That's why I put that under Orders and deliveries. Where it is at is fine too. -Fnlayson (talk) 19:09, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Speed translation from Mach to miles/km incorrect?

Towards the end of the first paragraph of this article, the cruisng speed is stated as 0.85 Mach which is translated to miles/km as 560/900. Doesn't look right to me. My calculations show this should be at least 630 miles. Can someone verify this. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.175.225.22 (talk) 16:53, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

  • I believe this varies at different altitudes. --GW_SimulationsUser Page | Talk 19:19, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New pictures

I deleted a new picture (A380 taking off ), because there are 3 pictures of A380 flying already. I think the article could be improved with new pictures of systems or details, some pictures could be surely improved, but from planes flying only if they are better than the already displayed. It's my opinion, of course. Cirrocumulus (talk) 17:18, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I thought it was OK since there was room for it. But it is a Commons image, so it's available through that link. -Fnlayson (talk) 17:55, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Maybe I exaggerated, but was not a problem this article being bigger than 70k? Cirrocumulus (talk) 19:25, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 1984 Airbus 380s to be made!

Big plane is watching you! Should be in the article due to its outrageously orwellian nature. 82.131.210.162 (talk) 08:06, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/05/spy-cams-in-pla.html

[edit] Macho bias detected in the article!

The specifications section mention the number of pilots (two), but no word on flight attendants. This is male chauvinism at its worst, as the plane would crash without the ladies. Pilots not getting their coffer on time usually fall asleep and then the plane makes a nice hole in the ground.

Surely, there is a legal minimum number of stewardesses an A380 must have to take off with 550 or 850 passangers onboard. It should be there in the article. 82.131.210.162 (talk) 08:15, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Please note that the article states that the aircraft has two pilots - no mention of them being male, as you know pilots and flight attendants could be of either sex. If you can find a verifiable source for the number of flight attendants it could be added. MilborneOne (talk) 11:30, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Also, the specs table says cockpit crew, i.e. flight crew not airline crew. -Fnlayson (talk) 12:32, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
The legal minimum number of flight attendants varies from country to country, so it is not included in the specs of the aircraft. Also, I think this whole section should be removed as it seems to be intended incendiary. Making claims that the article is biased and chauvinist, then they themselves showing bias and chauvinism. Trellis (talk) 13:30, 4 June 2008 (UTC)