Talk:Yule

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Contents

[edit] Etymology

If you're going to speculate in the etymology of a Scandinavian word it's pretty stupid to base that speculation on how the word is used in English related languages.

[edit] Oak and holly

Neopagan Yule: Isn't it backwards on the page? The page states that Oak dies and Yule and Holly ascends at Yule. I believe this is reversed (at least based on Farrar material). Holly is Waning year, which means from Midsummer to Yule, and Oak is Waxing - from Yule to Midsummer - so Yule is actually where Oak ascends and Holly dies. Double check me on this before changing please.

71.252.181.249 (talk) 05:51, 20 December 2007 (UTC)₵It is indeed backwards, at least according to Farrar. I have just consulted The Witch's God which states on page 35 that the Oak King rules from Midwinter to Midsummer, whilst the Holly King rules from Midsummer to Midwinter.

[edit] Heimskringla

Below I have pasted a section I came across in the Project Gutenberg edition of HEIMSKRINGLA on early celebrations of Yule. I put it here because of the controversy over "primary sources" and because I am not a Norse expert, but I do think it has some interesting fact which could be in part or in whole posted on the primary page.--trimalchio

Describe the new page here.Yule in Ancient Norway

from HEIMSKRINGLA

[edit] 15. HAKON SPREADS CHRISTIANITY.

King Hakon was a good Christian when he came to Norway; but as the whole country was heathen, with much heathenish sacrifice, and as many great people, as well as the favour of the common people, were to be conciliated, he resolved to practice his Christianity in private. But he kept Sundays, and the Friday fasts, and some token of the greatest holy-days. He made a law that the festival of Yule should begin at the same time as Christian people held it, and that every man, under penalty, should brew a meal of malt into ale, and therewith keep the Yule holy as long as it lasted. Before him, the beginning of Yule, or the slaughter night, was the night of mid-winter (Dec. 14), and Yule was kept for three days thereafter. It was his intent, as soon as he had set himself fast in the land, and had subjected the whole to his power, to introduce Christianity. He went to work first by enticing to Christianity the men who were dearest to him; and many, out of friendship to him, allowed themselves to be baptized, and some laid aside sacrifices. He dwelt long in the Throndhjem district, for the strength of the country lay there; and when he thought that, by the support of some powerful people there, he could set up Christianity he sent a message to England for a bishop and other teachers; and when they arrived in Norway, Hakon made it known that he would proclaim Christianity over all the land. The people of More and Raumsdal referred the matter to the people of Throndhjem. King Hakon then had several churches consecrated, and put priests into them; and when he came to Throndhjem he summoned the bondes to a Thing, and invited them to accept Christianity. They gave an answer to the effect that they would defer the matter until the Frosta-thing, at which there would be men from every district of the Throndhjem country, and then they would give their determination upon this difficult matter.

[edit] 16. ABOUT SACRIFICES.

Sigurd, earl of Hlader, was one of the greatest men for sacrifices, and so had Hakon his father been; and Sigurd always presided on account of the king at all the festivals of sacrifice in the Throndhjem country. It was an old custom, that when there was to be sacrifice all the bondes should come to the spot where the temple stood and bring with them all that they required while the festival of the sacrifice lasted. To this festival all the men brought ale with them; and all kinds of cattle, as well as horses, were slaughtered, and all the blood that came from them was called “hlaut”, and the vessels in which it was collected were called hlaut-vessels. Hlaut-staves were made, like sprinkling brushes, with which the whole of the altars and the temple walls, both outside and inside, were sprinkled over, and also the people were sprinkled with the blood; but the flesh was boiled into savoury meat for those present. The fire was in the middle of the floor of the temple, and over it hung the kettles, and the full goblets were handed across the fire; and he who made the feast, and was a chief, blessed the full goblets, and all the meat of the sacrifice. And first Odin’s goblet was emptied for victory and power to his king; thereafter, Niord’s and Freyja’s goblets for peace and a good season. Then it was the custom of many to empty the brage-goblet (1); and then the guests emptied a goblet to the memory of departed friends, called the remembrance goblet. Sigurd the earl was an open-handed man, who did what was very much celebrated; namely, he made a great sacrifice festival at Hlader of which he paid all the expenses. Kormak Ogmundson sings of it in his ballad of Sigurd: —

“Of cup or platter need has none
The guest who seeks the generous one, —
Sigurd the Generous, who can trace
His lineage from the giant race;
For Sigurd’s hand is bounteous, free, —
The guardian of the temples he.
He loves the gods, his liberal hand
Scatters his sword’s gains o’er the land-”

ENDNOTES:

(1) The brage-goblet, over which vows were made. — L.

[edit] Yule as Sabbat

The writer of this article states: "Yule was the winter solstice celebration of the Germanic pagans. In Germanic Neopaganism it is one of the eight solar holidays, or sabbats, where Yule is celebrated on the winter solstice: in the northern hemisphere, circa December 21, and in the southern hemisphere, circa June 21." I would like to point out that our Heathen ancestors did not have 'sabbats.' The sabbat is an invention of modern Wicca, thus associated with late medieval ritual and modern 'paganism,' as opposed to Heathenism.

This article leaves out the fact that 'Christmas' translates to 'Jul' in some - if not all -modern Skandinavian languages. That seems relevant to me... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.52.63.183 (talk • contribs) .
Well, this is Wikipedia so you know what to do: be bold and edit the article to include this fact.
Atlant 11:49, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology

In this article the writer suggests that the Old English word "géol" is related to geol, the word for yellow. I have read that the word "géol" means "wheel" and referes to the beginning of the wheel of the year.

Nan Hawthorne Dec. 8 noog —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Merriehearted (talk • contribs) 00:10, 9 December 2006 (UTC).

Where did you read this? --Profero 00:51, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
  • For someone more etymologically inclined then I, a possible reference for this section is: [1]. — xaosflux Talk 15:09, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Removed: "Linguists suggest that ''Jól'' has been inherited by [[Germanic languages]] from a [[pre-Indo-European]] substrate language and either borrowed into [[Old English language|Old English]] from Old Norse or directly inherited from [[Proto-Germanic]].{{Fact|date=March 2007}}" from the article, been there unsourced for too long. — xaosflux Talk 01:46, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wren Boys

In rural Ireland, a tradition "lost in the mists of Antiquity" is that of the "wren boys." On December 26, obviously "christianized" as Saint Stephen's Day, young men and boys would capture a wren, and then go from house to house singing various traditional songs. The most popular is that beginning:

The wren, the wren, the king of all birds,
On Saint Stephen's Night he was caught in the furze...(many variants)

The occupants of the houses visited would offer food and sometimes drink and might even join in the general hilarity, some of the younger members going onward with the "wren boys."

This might tie in with the pre-Christian role of the wren as part of Yuletide celebrations in Northern European cultures.--PeadarMaguidhir 07:23, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] why Germanic Neopaganism

I disagree with the description of Yule as "celebration of the Scandinavian Norse mythology and Germanic pagans. In Germanic Neopaganism" neopaganism is not limited to Scandinavian & Germanic Understanding that Yule Etymology, and its good description of having its roots in "the Scandinavian Norse mythology and Germanic pagans". But this statement is saying Yule is only for Germanic Neopaganism. Its being specific in a way that is excluding of other pagan peoples who also celebrate Yule-time. Recommend making it more general, acknowledge the source, and acknowledge its spread beyond the Norse/Germanic boundaries. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 167.1.120.20 (talk) 16:11, 22 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Scandinavian humanist societies

"Scandinavian humanist societies" celebrating yuletide are mentioned in the infobox and in the last section. I never heard of such celebrations, other than among a few eccentrics. It is true that most families celebrate "jul", whether they are Christian or un-religious. (Even some muslim families have started celebrating "jul", i.e. to mimic the celebrations of the majority population - food, presents etc. - of course avoiding specific Christian references, and probably avoiding pork too.) But what "humanist societies" are celebrating yuletide? Is it in one of the references? - PS. I'm a Dane.--Niels Ø (noe) 20:15, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I can find no reference to Scandinavian humanists societies celebrating yule. I am going to mark the section as disputed.Master shepherd 17:06, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I know a few non-eccentric Scandinavian individual and independent families celebrating yule, particularly at winter solstice 21 December, some of them in mild protest against the commercial Christmas, some of them as well as Christmas, but neither I have heard of other than very small racist "societies" organizing such events using the "Nordic" tradition for racist purposes. [2] And I wouldn't call them humanists! My impression is that humanists would not organize anything of the kind as to avoid creating a new religion. --Profero 00:46, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Here is a reference, in Norwegian: Feirer humanistene jul? - "does the humanists celebrate christmas/yule?". I'm not a good translator, but the article states that the Norwegian humanists celebrate it in the same way as the christians - each family have their own traditions which is influenced by the external culture - culture coming from the shopping centres, the church, rituals predating the Norwegian christianity, etc. tobixen 13:56, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

It looks like we could conclude that humanists do celebrate Yule - individually. --Profero 18:06, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I edited the page to just say Scandinavian humanists and I tool off the disputed template. However, I left the citation needed becvause it would be nice to get an English citation. Master shepherd 18:17, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
I think I agree, but could you please rebuild the context of the long sentence more unambiguously. --Profero 20:49, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


OK I edited the section to try and make it a little clearer and more consistent with what little info we have. I removed the stuff about tomte as a precursor to Santa as I found no evidence for that anywhere. I still feel uncomfortable with the section since I am not personally familiar with these Yule celebrations and i can't read Norwegian. Master shepherd 05:45, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed etymology

The reason I removed this link to the amateur argument is that its conclusion is based on the assumption that the word "Jol" cannot be related to "Wheel" because "Jol" existed long before the introduction of the wheel to Europe. This conclusion overlooks the fact that a wheel, or any circular object or concept, does not necessarily have to be a practical wheel in that particular sense, and therefore not a good reason to exclude the possibility that people in the ancient tradition of "Yol" couldn't have used the word for a cyclic event. But, on the other hand, this does not disprove (the) other etymological possibilities.

I have also added the {{disputed}} tag and rephrased a few sentences as a consequence.

I suggest there is even a possibility that the bright yellow sun-disc (wheel), could be the origin of all the subsequent different branches: Géol, Jolly, Gold, Guld, Gul, Yéol, Yellow, Yule, Jul, Hjul, Helios!
--Profero 01:12, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay, this conflicts with another wikipedia entry. Which is correct?
From the entry on "Yule Log" -
In Northern Europe, winter festivities were once considered to be a Feast of the Dead, complete with ceremonies full of spirits, devils, and the haunting presence of the Norse god, Odin, and his night riders. One particularly durable Solstice festival was "Jol" (also known as "Jule" and pronounced "Yule"), a feast celebrated throughout Northern Europe and particularly in Scandinavia to honor Jolnir, another name for Odin. Since Odin was the god of intoxicating drink and ecstasy, as well as the god of death, Yule customs varied greatly from region to region. Odin's sacrificial beer became the specially blessed Christmas ale mentioned in medieval lore, and fresh food and drink were left on tables after Christmas feasts to feed the roaming Yuletide ghosts. Even the bonfires of former ancient times survived in the tradition of the Yule log, perhaps the most universal of all Christmas symbols. - JP
Undoubtably the two articles should be synchronized. But could you perhaps specify exactly what you consider the conflicting part and what should be correct historical facts in relation to my entry above. From my point of view, what you are quoting from Yule log may be correct even if the article 'does not cite its references or sources'. Apart from that, I am only suggesting that "Yule" could be a reference to a 'helio(!)-cyclic event – I agree that even if the words Hjul and Wheel may not have the same etymological origin it is of no importance in this case. I was, however, specifically pointing to something I found to be an erroneous conclusion in the 'amateur argument'. – And, by the way, do you not agree that it is plausible that Odin was the The Golden, Jolnir, Sun-God, " in Nordic mythology and wouldn't contradict anything, but fits jolly good into the golden puzzle?
(Please remember to sign your posts using four tildes (~~~~)). --Profero 02:10, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
In a discussion with a native Egyptian scholar today, while talking of the ancient history of Egypt, Cleopatra, of course, was mentioned. What I found interesting was that he did not pronounce her name as we are used to in English (or Scandinavian and other languages). I had to ask him to repeat it for me several times; he was saying Keleo-patra. I asked him if he knew the etymological origin of the name and he replied that '-patra' most likely is of the same origin as 'rock' or 'stone' or even 'father'. So what about 'Keleo-'? Could the 'K' (or 'C' or 'Ch') also have been pronounced as a deep "Ch'-sound? In other words: is 'Keleo' of the origin as 'Helio' and so on...? Does Cleopatra mean 'Glorious' 'stone' or perhaps 'Glorious' 'Father'?
Now some sources claim that 'Cleo' is related to 'Key', which could also lead to 'The Key of The Fatherland".
So I look forward to an etymology scholar's clarification or guidance on this subject as well as other's educated suggestions. --Profero 21:16, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Did you check OED? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.17.194.130 (talk) 14:19, 5 January 2007 (UTC)


in the old manx language, the festival of Geul translates as the festival of mistletoe. on top of that geul is root to geuley which in manx means shackle, link or chain ring. mistletoe being a parasite, shackles itself to various trees. in pagan tree worship, mistletoe is also considered the link between the trees that rule different times of year. has any one found anything on the manx etymology? it may be the only surviving language to still have a literal meaning for the word.Some thing 21:50, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jule brag

This midwinter I was asked by a friend what my "Jule brag" would be... Old Norse form of a New Year's resolution... Made before the gods... A little more umph than a simple resolution. I can't find anything about this reputed custom on the internet. Might fellow wikipedians help me out? Thanks... Emyth 13:26, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Yule is not a solstice holiday

Is there any source for the date of Yule as Dec. 24 to Jan. 6? This is fourteen days and Yule is usually given as twelve days. The box gives Yule as the Dec. 21 or Dec. 22. This is appearently based on the assumption that Yule is the day of the winter solstice. But what is the basis for claiming this? The article should not be arguing with itself and is therefore in need of a rewrite. The traditional date of Yule was determined by a lunar calendar, so in general none of days of Yule would correspond to the date of the solstice. It is likely that the first day of Yule was the day that the crescent of first new moon of the year became visible. Bede gives the date of Yule as Dec. 25. This is persumably the date Yule was assigned when it was transferred to the Julian calendar, perhaps in order to Christianize the festival.[3] Kauffner 06:46, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

You have an interesting reference here that enhances the probability that Yule occurred on different days according the moon's phases that are not 'in sync' with the days of the solar year. We could assume that the return of moonlight must have been a more spectacular (and more exact) event, from a visual point of view, than the less observable fact that the days very slowly begin to get longer. This, however, does not exclude the possibility that Yule was a celebration of (the time around) winter solstice, and neither excludes Yule as the beginning of a new year.
On the other hand it doesn't either prove that a celebration of a new year had anything to do with the celebration of the returning sun in some cultures at different epochs. Bede could also have been mistaken as noted here. --Profero 11:28, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

i recant, after reading "pagen history of europe". despite the appropriated traditions, pre-christianianization solstice celebrations didnt seem to be called jul/yule. this however; doesn't negate the currently existing application by many groups, of yule directly to the solstice.Some thing 18:44, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] the 'citation needed' about Yule and Christmas being used interchangeably

I would definitely support this from personal experience. It seems like looking for a citation that states that hamsters are a common pet. Glennh70 14:38, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Norway section, outdated? poorly written? complete rubbish?

user:209.214.104.112 has deleted the Norway section several times in protest of the section's bad writing and inaccuracies. All information correlates with the Jul (Norway) article. I doubt this information was made up, but it could be out of date or even misplaced. Citations would be appreciated. The article currently only cites the Norwegian ministries cite. Can any one lend to this issue?209.214.104.112 13:53, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] CHANGED INTRODUCTION

The introductory paragrpaph made claim that Christmas was superimposed ideologies over Yule practices. While many neo-pagans make such speculation, Christains would disagree with such notion. This sentence was pure speculation. 69.246.224.100 (talk) 22:32, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

--The second paragraph: "In pre-Christain times" is too vague... Which centuries?, What Source for Verifiability? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.246.224.100 (talk) 22:37, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

--The following paragraph needs reworked: In pre-Christian times,[vague] Germanic tribes celebrated Yule from late December to early January on a date determined by a lunar calendar.[1] ((According to...?) When Christianity was just beginning, Christmas was set on the dates of Yule. ((The theory s/he holds is that...)during Christianization, Yule was suppressed by the Christian Church. ((Certain [historians], (authors) (anthropologists) such as, ?, ?, and ? believe that)) many of the Yule traditions were eventually incorporated into Christmas celebrations.[2] (Coloquially) the terms "Yule" and "Christmas" are often used interchangeably[3], ((especially in Christmas carols--delete because context is irrelevent.)

) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.246.224.100 (talk) 18:00, 29 December 2007 (UTC)