Talk:Yonge Street
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Yonge Street was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. Reviewed version: February 21, 2007 |
|Template:ReqmapinCanada Yonge Street doesn't continue, nor does it keep its name. If yonge street can change directions, and names, and be the world's longest street, aren't all streets equally long? Every street leads to another and contiues, with a different name. Please, let's be reasonable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.51.134.43 (talk • contribs)
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[edit] Yonge Street vs Highway 11
Sorry for not discussing my revert, but I believed it necessary, and still do. Here's the thing - Highway 11 is not Yonge St. Never was. There are many sources to back that fact up, and very few non-colloquial sources to back up the longest street claim. I'd buy Highway 11 as being perhaps the longest street in the world, but the fact is that Yonge St ends at Barrie. Since I live two minutes from where Yonge St ends, I can take a picture of the spot to prove it if necessary, but other people have done it for me. Physically, Yonge ends in Bradford. In name, it ends in Barrie. Some goof started the rumour some time back, and people believed it, but it's just not true. --DarrenBaker 19:18, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- Hi. Then lets's put something like "if highway 11 and Yonge street are to be considered the same....". These two may not be continous but judging by the articles in Wikipedia about both Highway 11 and Yonge street, one comes to the conlusion that the two are considered the same. As you know, it is not uncommon for streets to have specific names and highway numbers in Ontario. Both are considered to refer to the same road but, they are usually known by their specific names where they are in municipal jurisdiction and by their highway numbers where they are maintained by the province. Then let's clarify, 1)if Yonge street and Highway 11 are the same, 2)do they have to physically connect to be considered a)the same b)a street, 3)If these can not be clarified, then how can we put that "those who consider these two the same, also consider it to be the longest street in the world", without saying but in fact this is wrong. I hope my sentences are not too long to make them difficult to understand. Thank you. --TimBits 01:50, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Hey, no problem. First of all, I'd like to thank you for your civil response. Just to be clear about where I stand, I would love for Yonge St to be considered the longest street in the world, and for years I thought it was. The fact remains, however, that if the criteria one uses (and I consider this to be pretty sensible) is that one must be able to continuously drive the street from one end to the other, without turning, and without losing the street name, then Yonge St fails on all counts. The insane thing is that even if you count Hwy 11 and Yonge St as one and the same, it STILL doesn't work, because Yonge St ends some 50 km before Hwy 11 begins. It is, quite simply, a hoax. It was never listed in any record book of any kind, as it existed solely in the imagination of Ontarians like you and I. What I think would be best is something like a section with the arguments for and against, labelled 'Longest Street in the World'. --DarrenBaker 18:26, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
- Yonge Street, for clarification, was listed in the Guiness Book of World Records. Don't know if it still is.-RomeW 22:17, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
- Darren, I don't completely disagree with you, but you may not be aware of all the facts. Hwy 11 may "begin" somewhere north of the end of Yonge St. today, but if that is true, it wasn't always true. During the last 15 years, many roads in Ontario have been renamed and reassigned (ie, provincial highways have been "downloaded"(Define downloaded -Richard416282) to become county or municipal responsibility). In the past, Hwy 11 began at Lake Ontario and was equivalent to Yonge St. at least as far as Barrie (possibly Orillia?). Anyway, the point is that the current names don't reflect the real history. Also, you may not be aware that at the corner of Dundas & Yonge, outside the Eaton Centre in Toronto, is an "official" brass inlaid map of Yonge St. claiming that it goes far into northern Ontario. That claim may be a tourism ploy, but the basic equivalence of Yonge St and Hwy 11 goes back a long way. Slowmover 19:58, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Downloaded??
- A Slight of hand manipulation of existing services and public infrastructure ,wherby the public have to pay more money for less services. Economies of scale get eliminated when production quantities go beyound a certain minimum. In the case of publicly funded highways or motorways, the Higher Jurisdiction imposes its will upon Lower Jurisdiction entities, hence the name 'down-loading'. Not a single plebecite or ballot was counted wherby publicly funded highways were requested to be 'puchased' or responsibilities requested by the "Lower Tier" government to be transferred. Its a variation on a shell game, but instead of nickels and dimes, this is on the order on $millions.
--Richard416282 07:17, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Streets longer than Yonge in GTA
Actually, there are several streets even in the GTA (Greater Troronto Area) which are longer than Yonge: Dundas, Steeles, and Hurontario, to name a few. [Author unknown?]
Steeles Avenue ends at the Pickering / Durham County Town Line border in the east end of Toronto, formerly the Borough of Scarborough, in the City of Metropolitan Toronto.
After one crosses the half way point of the road, heading east, one now is in Durham County, and responsibility with highway maintenance is with the County, and no longer with the "City of Toronto".
In the west end of the city, it also changes jurisdiction but now, instead of being in the county of York, the road is now in the County of Peel, and even though it is named "Steeles Avenue", it no longer is the same street. [Physically you cannot tell the two apart, however, if one were to get a traffic infraction notice [Ticket], then the jurisdictions make a difference. --Richard416282 07:28, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Just because the jurisdiction/numbering system changes, doesn't mean that it's a different street. As long as the name is the same, it's the SAME street. By your reckoning, Yonge St. north of Steeles is a different street as well (even though the numbering is the same, the jurisdiction changes). As for Taunton Rd., I never said it was part of Steeles. A.L.70.24.71.154 05:10, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Controversial claim?
I agree that the claim that Yonge Street is 1900km long is bogus. Confusing Highway 11 with Yonge Street is Toronto-centric misthinking at best.
However, I haven't seen any evidence to disprove the claim that Yonge Street is the world's longest street. (I'm just talking about the original Yonge Street here -- the straight stretch from Front Street to Holland Landing, as originally defined by Lord Simcoe. I'm not including the bit that goes to Barrie, which, if you ask me, is a different Yonge street.)
Dictionary.com says that a "street" is usually paved and lined with sidewalks. I might also suggest that a street should be mostly straight, and labelled with a single name.
Well, Yonge Street is straight, urban, lined with sidewalks and shops, known by a single name, and goes for over 50km. I don't know any other street which does that. Granted, I haven't been to every city, but I've been to a couple sprawling metropolises like L.A. and I didn't see anything that competes with Yonge Street.
Until someone points out a street that is longer than Yonge Street, I'm not sure we should call the claim "controversial".
Maybe Yonge street isn't the world's longest street. Maybe it's just the longest, straight, named street in North America. But the fact remains that there are scores of citable sources claiming that Yonge Street is the world's longest street, and not a single source (that I've seen) claiming that it's not. (Just a couple expressing vague doubt.)
How is that "controversial"? 69.157.175.7 09:02, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry for not signing the above with my username. I didn't realise I wasn't logged in. Scientivore 09:04, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, this is the point I was (perhaps not clearly) trying to make in the section above. Yonge St from Lake Ontario to near Lake Simcoe seems to correctly be a single continuous street. Arguments revolving around its connection to Hwy. 11 notwithstanding, the longest street in the world claim for that segment may be correct. -- Slowmover 19:57, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
I think Steeles may have it beat even on that criteria, (see section above), as it is fully built-up and continuous from Markham Rd. to Mavis Rd. in Brampton, and keeps its name to west of Milton. A.L.70.24.71.154 05:46, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Dundas Street certainly has Yonge Street beat based on that criteria, running as it does from Kingston Road through Toronto, through Mississauga, across the northern part of Oakville and Burlington, to just past Highway 6. Airport Road as a named street runs from the Mississauga/Toronto boundary to the community of Staynor 80 km north, albeit as a country road. James Bow 19:16, 28 May 2007 (EDT)
[edit] Article cleanup
I've restructured the article a little so that all the controversial stuff (longest-street, highway 11) is consolidated into one place, and dealt with in a logical order. I also think I've resolved some confusion by pointing out that the "longest-street" claim and the "1900km" claim aren't necessarily the same thing. (And, indeed, they seem to be referring to two different "Yonge streets", neither of which is what we usually mean today by "Yonge Street". For that reason, I've also added some background about the origin and evolution of Yonge Street.) --Scientivore 08:51, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Yonge St. IS Hwy. 11
I drove on the 401 today and the Yonge St. exit was marked as being Hwy. 11. And I do recall seeing Hwy. 11 signs on Yonge St. in the past. Just because the street is maintained by different jurisdictions does not make it a different St. --70.48.234.212 23:10, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, but the 2 are synonomous only as far as Bradford (Or Barrie, if you ignore the name/course change through Bradford.). A.L.70.24.71.154 05:29, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Issues with GA nomination
For a GA there are some points that need resolving. I've marked the GA on hold until fixed
- Criteria 2b - References - no inline references. While not a requirement for all good articles, this one has no reference marks and has claims that have to be backed up to a reliable source. This is particularly required for the Evolution of Yonge Street and History and significance sections which make claims that may be challenged.
- 'Criteria 1b - the lead does not summarise the entire article and needs to briefly cover the Evolution and History sections.
- Too many images make the article hard to read and images like Image:Yonge-south.jpg, Image:Yonge & College Christmas.jpg, Image:Northbound Yonge Christmas.jpg and Image:Yonge-street-sign.jpg do not seem to add anything to the article.
- Some of the prose is hard to read and needs editing.
- Today, Yonge Street exists in name as two segments and a branch
- Penetanguishene Road continues to exist
- This has not stopped Torontonians from clinging to the claim
Are all disjointed sentences that should be incorporated into the following text. All up the references and unsummarising lead are the largest issues. - Peripitus (Talk) 05:34, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] GA nomination failed
For the above reasons, especially as the article has been tagged for references since the 5th of February I've failed this for GA and rerated as a B class - Peripitus (Talk) 06:58, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Yonge Street, Lake Ontario to where?
- Did Holland Landing even exist when Yonge Street was first proposed? Or did this place develop as a consequence of the street being there? In 1797 the military route from Lake Simcoe to Georgian Bay, was over the Nine Mile Portage, from the head of Kempenfelt Bay to Willow Creek, then by the Nottawasaga River to its mouth (near the remains of the HMS Nancy). In this period of time the object of Yonge Street was to reach the navigable waters of Lake Simcoe, as part of that route. The natural harbour of Holland Landing would have offered greater protection, than the open waters of Cook's Bay. The river is navigable from the Landing to the southern end of Lake Simcoe. By the way, the lake was named by John Graves Simcoe, to honor his father, Capt. John Simcoe of the Royal Navy, whom James Cook and Samuel Holland served under, while Rear admiral Richard Kempenfelt, was a Naval captain at the same time.
- Although the Naval Establishment at Penetanguishene was not started until 1818, the Penetanguishene Road (now Highway 93 (Ontario)), connecting to it was started in 1814-15, from the north side of Kempenfelt Bay (East of Barrie). A community developed at the landing point where the Penetanguishene Road commenced from the lake, and became known as the village of Kempenfelt, which was at one time, a larger place than Barrie. The town plots of both Penetanguishene and Kempenfelt being laid out in 1812, by surveyor Samuel S. Wilmot, the year after he'd surveyed the road. The village plot of Holland Landing was not laid out until 1835, this was the place also known as the "Upper Landing," where Elisha Beman operated a fur trading post, later run by his stepson William Benjamin Robinson. About 2 km downstream, the "Lower Landing" or steamboat landing was the depot the military's munitions supply line.
- That section of Penetanguishene Road built in 1824-1825 from Holland Landing through Bradford and completed to Kempenfelt Bay in 1827, was not later extended to Penetanguishene, but then and there to a road already in place, now part of Simcoe County Road 93.
- more information on these and other roads can be found in:
"A History of Simcoe County," by Andrew F Hunter. Volume 1 Volume 2 W W 01:48, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Two split Yonge Street
I don't know if you guys noticed on Google Maps. but north of Newmarket, if you go straight north instead of taking the curve towards Brantford and then Barrie, [1] there is another Yonge Street running north beside the old 11B designation. It then goes north through Holland Landing as RR 13 and then RR 51. [2]
After that it goes briefly on RR 77 Queensville Side Road before turning back right to the north [3] until it ends in a dead-end beside the Silver Lakes Golf Club. [4]
See this page also for the info [5]. Although, he probably didn't noticed that Barrie Street would have led quickly to Yonge Street up to Barrie.JForget 02:16, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
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- 11B is not the original, the one on the right (east) is. 11B was constructed to avoid the hill for car traffic, although it's not obviously visible in the overhead shots. I find it more amusing that the runway is bent! Of course the "51" alignment is also not the original, you can see where it used to be along the right hand side of the forests along the river. I'm not sure where it originally ended, I believe it was where it hits the river the first time (at the forest), but the maps of the era don't show much detail and the river has moved, of course. Another good one: where's the rest of the locks? There's supposed to be four, but google maps only shows two that I can see. Maury 02:40, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
