Talk:Yom Ha'atzmaut

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The specific ritual involved in observance of this day is a matter of controversy. Some Religious Zionists have declared that Yom Ha-Atzmaut is one of the Jewish Holidays in which Hallel should be said. This view has, however, been rejected by the majority of Orthodox Jewish halachic decisors including members of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel.

The above is not totally accurate. After all, the Chief Rabbinate are the ones who said that one should say Hallel and I don't think the majority of Orthodox poskim said not to say Hallel. Most think Hallel should be said, some say without a blessing but I don't think you can say that a majority reject the practice of Hallel on Yom HaAtzmaut.

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[edit] Timing

This holiday is listed as on 23 April I understand that there's always some confusion what with jewish holidays starting at sun down and lasting until the next sun down. Which date is correct? I don't know, nor could I reliably check. -Kode 14:52, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

    It starts on the eve of April 23, but most calendars will list it as April 24, as most other Jewish holidays, although it starts the prior evening. Amechad 20:18, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Not only that, but 2007 is only the second invocation of the "monday" clause, first instituted in 2004, which pushes it to tuesday if it lands on monday. All software written before 2004 and not updated would put it on April 23, instead of the correct April 24. -Vonfraginoff 06:36, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

The paragraph is NOT confusing, but clarifying. I wish someone in my city had checked the 2004 law, as everyone here (6th largest US city) is celebrating israeli independence day on Monday 2007. It's possible that the calendar you have is incorrect.

An external link http://www.hebcal.com/news/2007/01/yom_haatzmaut_yom_hazikaron_2007.html quotes the wikipedia article, saying that the article explains the new dating.

[edit] Yom HaShoah

The article states: "These four new days [including Yom HaShoah] are not accepted as religious holidays by Hasidim and Haredim. These groups view these new days as Israeli national holidays." I don't think anyone views Yom HaShoah as anything Israeli considering it commemorates the Holocaust and has little to do with modern Israel.

Good point, but consider this: Yom HaShoah is officially recognized by the Israeli government. --Keeves 15:25, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Sure. So is every other Jewish holiday, which precede Israel by centuries and are perfectly recognized by religious groups. :) 38.112.113.242 15:35, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Okay, how's this idea: The question of the religious/Israeli status of Yom HaShoah does not belong on this page, which is only for Yom Ha'atzma'ut. Each of those 4 days has its own Wikipedia article, and that's where these questions should be discussed. Therefore, in a couple of minutes, I'm going to move links for the other three holidays down to the See Also section, and rename what's left of the "New Israeli/Jewish holidays" section as "Yom Ha'atzma'ut Observances". --Keeves 15:45, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Those changes have now been made, except that I did not add anything to the See Also section, since all those holidays are already included in the infobox at the very bottom of the article. --Keeves 16:03, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Yom HaSHoah is Israeli because its date and celebrations were invented by Israel. Shia1 09:39, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Also on Yom HaShoah

This description from the article: "Yom HaShoah V'Hagevurah - Holocaust Remembrance day, on 27th of Nissan, commemorates the date of the uprising in Warsaw Ghetto in 1943", despite the initial translation, makes it sound like the purpose of the day is to commemorate the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, which is obviously only one facet of the commemoration of the Holocaust itself. 38.112.113.242 15:36, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling

Keeves, I agree with your last edit - that information did not belong. What do you think about moving the page to Yom Ha'atzmaut, without the second apostrophe. It's more accurate, since there is an /א/ there, not an /ע/, and more importantly, it's the most popular spelling on Google. Pending comment, I am prepared to move the page. --DLandTALK 16:59, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

My personal preference would be to remove the first apostrophe, and to leave the second. My reason is that I prefer transliterations which bring a native English speaker to a close approximation of the correct pronunciation, over a scholarly mapping of Hebrew letters to English letters. In this case, I see the first apostrophe as optional, because an English speaker will tend to pronounce "haatz" and "ha'atz" the same way, as two syllables. But without the second apostrophe, an English speaker is likely to pronounce "maut" as a single syllable, to rhyme with "fought", whereas "ma'ut" forces the speaker to separate the syllables (though the pronunciation of the "u" will still likely be wrong). OTOH I can't argue with your Google results. Therefore, I suggest leaving it as is until others comment. --Keeves 23:06, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I just came upon this article again. It's been more than long enough without comment, so I'm going ahead with the move. With regard to your concern about the pronounciation, that's why we have the IPA pronounciation (sort of...) listed in the first sentence. --DLandTALK 18:59, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fasting and sackcloth?

I am curious as to where the information comes for this. It seems possible that people would fast and wear sackcloth for the holiday that immediately precedes Yom Haatzmaut, Yom HaZikaron, the Rememberance Day that is a day of national mourning for those who died in Israel's wars, terrorist attacks, etc. Why would we harp on death on the next day too when we've already observed the mourning? Also, I haven't seen anyone mourning it but I have seen some angry Hassidim. Valley2city 18:26, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Your last line is the one closest to what that author was trying to say. You haven't seen them, but yes indeed, there are some who are so opposed to the existence of the State that they do indeed recite various prayers of mourning on this day. I'll try to rewite that paragraph to make it clearer. --Keeves 01:26, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
I doubt this is true. Hebrew wikipedia doesn't mention it but just the demonstration of extreme group like neturei karta and angry articles from certain haredi papers. Never heard of this mourning, and I doubt it happens or noteable enough. Amoruso 02:52, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

No, it's true. On Yom HaAtzmaut, Neturei Karta'niks will wear ashes and sackcolth and fly either black or Palestinian flags or both. Satmer, Bobov, Munkatch, Chasam Soferniks, and pretty much the run of Hasidic and Hungarian anti-zionist Jewry holds it a fast day. SOme will fly black flags from their houses. Given the size of Satmar and Bobov, it basically means nearly 1/4 of all Sabbath keaping Jews hold YOm HaAtzmaut a day of mourning. These groups do not recognize Yom Zikaron, and will make a point of going about their bussiness when the siren blows, as do many Litvishik anti-ZIonists. Shia1 09:37, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

All I can say is that last year I was in Israel and on Yom Haatzmaut the haredim blocked the streets and burned trash cans. We joked that they were building huge Yahrzeit candles for Yom Hazikaron. I guess, just as the observances of the holiday are still developing, so are the methods of protesting it. Chag Sameach. --Valley2city₪‽ 16:57, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Title of article

As this is the English language Wikipedia the article should use the English name, "Israeli Independence Day" or something similar. I propose moving. PatGallacher 21:16, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

The reason that the title of the article is transliterated from the Hebrew name is that "Yom Ha'atzmaut" is a more commonly used term than any other, including "Israeli Independence Day". --DLandTALK 22:10, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
More commonly used in the English-speaking countries? I doubt it. PatGallacher 22:55, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Check Google and see for yourself. --DLandTALK 23:10, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
I found the article by looking for it under Israeli Independence Day" as figuring out how to transliterate Yom HaAtzmaut, was difficult. Shia1 14:23, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jewish Holy Day?

This is an Israeli holiday, not a Jewish one. It seems to be miscategorized, but I'm hesitant to remove the category in case there's a good reason. Oren0 01:52, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

You are 100% correct, but given the desire to use Wikipedia for hasbarah, if you changed it, it would be reverted back with arguements that they are one and the same. YOu would then get into an arguement about what counts as "Jewish," something Jews do, or something that's part of Judaism. You would then get in an arguement about what is Judaism. You could also point out that it is actually forbidden to "Celebrate" anything during this time period on the Jewish calendar, as it is during the Omer. But you would be shouted down by 90 people. Shia1 14:07, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

It isn't fair to use Wikipedia for hasbarah, and Wikipedia is not the right place for arguements unless they relate to Wikipedia per se; please adhere to writing factual, neutral and verifiable (preferbly backed up with citation) information. --AvihooI 03:15, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree, but nevertheless, it is used that way, and it is going to be impossible to stop people from using it that way since 90% of the people interested in Jewish topics are Jews, and 90% of Jews are Zionist, and 90% of Zionists think it is appropriate to engage in Hasbara. (see article on Hasbara). For an interesting example, notice how the snipppet detailing anti-Zionist Jews way of marking the 5th of Iyar, which used to be the only piece of this article siting a source, has been sabotaged to lead to a Hasbarah website instead of to the title of the article it came from. 88.152.134.66 15:52, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Where do you get the statistics from?; I am Israeli, Jewish and Zionist, I do not find it necessary to have pro-Israeli material on an encyclopedia and especially one like Wikipedia. I think a biased information may even prove to be counter-productive: I insist that the articles be corrected for facts in order to fit the actual reality and if it's not going to, I'll have to involve higher authorities in Wikipedia. --AvihooI 07:14, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Arab citizens of Israel do not celebrate the day?

Such a broad generalization with no citation does not belong in the article. There are not only Muslim Arabs in Israel, but also Bedouin, Druze, and Christian Arabs. While Muslims may not celebrate Yom Ha'atzmaut, other Israeli Arabs most certainly do. The article on Arab citizens of Israel is a good reference in this issue.

It is my understanding that Christian Palestinians do not like Israel just as much as Muslim Palestinians do not like Israel, though their idea of proper resitence may be different. (The same could, by the way, be said for Jewish Palestinians.) THe article on Arab citizens of Israel mentions that though nearly 10% of Palestinians are Christian, only a dozen or so serve in the army. The rest do not want to betray the Arab world or Palestine. Do you have a source for Christian Palestinians celebrating the day in any greater numbers than Muslims? Or for bedoines? I'll leave this up for a few days for a response, then I'm deleting that bit of hasbarah as unsourced. 82.81.104.93 18:20, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Jewish palestinians?

you mean thoose 100+ Hyper-orthodox (for a lack of higher term then ultra) jews who live in east jerusalem , britain and the US who deny the holocaust? They view "palestinians"(arabs , etc) like the taliban views women.

[edit] Page move

I have moved this article to Independence Day (Israel) based on WP:COMMONNAME used in the English language media in Israel. For illustration, combining Haaretz, Jerusalem Post and Ynet, the totals are:

  • Yom Haatzmaut: 6 + 2 + 29 = 37
  • Independence Day: 1,060 + 774 + 469 = 2,303

Number 57 13:58, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

You're move of this page is bold, and also disruptive. --Shuki 17:34, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Shuki. LordAmeth 18:35, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I also agree with Shuki. Please talk about it here first before moving things. --GHcool 19:00, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm also with Shuki. "Independence Day" may be used on the English-language websites of Israeli newspapers, but who is their intended audience? Perhaps people who aren't familiar with the Hebrew name? People who aren't familiar with Israeli holidays? Among people who are familiar with Israel, the name "Yom Ha'atzmaut" is much more common — even among English-speakers who may not know much Hebrew (in the United States, for example). — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 19:21, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Firstly "Be Bold" is a Wikipedia guideline, as is WP:COMMONNAME. The evidence in favour of the English is overwhelming. Having lived in Israel for several years, no-one ever used Yom Haatzma'ut when speaking to me in English; only in Hebrew. Number 57 08:14, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry that was your experience. My multinational company advises foreigners at our office in April/May that Yom Hashoah, Hazikaron and Haatzmaut are holidays. --Shuki 16:30, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Don't be sorry, it makes life much easier if people are consistent. The multinational company I worked for used the English names! Number 57 16:33, 17 July 2007 (UTC)