Talk:YMCA

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	YMCA is part of the Scouting WikiProject, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Scouting and Guiding on the Wikipedia. This includes but is not limited to boy and girl organizations, WAGGGS and WOSM organizations as well as those not so affiliated, country and region-specific topics, and anything else related to Scouting. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the importance scale.

	Christianity Portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Christianity, an attempt to build a comprehensive guide to Christianity on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Wikipedia visit the welcome page to become familiar with the guidelines.
B	This article has been rated as B-class on the quality scale.
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the importance scale.
Assessment comments This article has been rated for quality and/or importance but has no comments yet. If appropriate, please review the article and then leave comments here to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article and what work it will need.

To-do list for YMCA:	edit · history · watch · refresh
Section(s) on history - add: refugee work; Jerusalem YMCA; and recent challenges Section on localization / national movements - the Y in the US is different from the Y in the UK is different from the Y in India etc. (Pattern established, but only US has significant content.) Clean up program information, decide on how to address the 'Naked Swimming' issue Decide how to address the YMCA and Gay subculture
Priority 4

Contents 1 YMCA and Christianity 2 Lodging, Food & Beverage Facilities 3 Promotion of Individual YMCAs or Programs 4 Swimming 5 Funding sources 6 Gay Subculture 7 YMCA Camps 8 In Sitcoms 9 Header material 10 History and Mission 11 Challenge 21 12 Links to national Ys 13 Early dates 14 Vandalism, March 26, 2007 15 Workout 16 Note on broken reference link 17 Greek YMCA Website 18 Early Learning Centers 19 Secretary

[edit] YMCA and Christianity

How much is Christianity tied to YMCA these days?

Depends on the country. In many European and East Asian countries, the YMCA is an evangelical organization, but in the US and Canada it's quite secular. - jredmond 15:43, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Parts of the US are secular, parts are not.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.223.91.26 (talk • contribs)

I'm in a very small city of east Texas and I don't get any vibes that the local Y is trying to push any religious agendas. -Rolypolyman 17:38, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

On the issue of the name -- YMCA. "Its name represents something of an anachronism, but it has been retained as a strong brand name." <--- I believe that this statement is incorrect and should be removed (it is opinion). An anachronism is something that is out of place for the time period. By making this statement, the writer declares that Christianity is an anachronism (my interpretation). While this may be true to some folks, it is out of place in the article. While the YMCA is open to people of all culture and faiths, their charter is very clear (updated in 1998). It clearly states a Christian mission (See Challenge 21). While many YMCAs do not "push" a Christian agenda, they are in fact, a faith-based organization chartered on the principles of sharing the good news of Jesus Christ. The opening sentence should be changed to reflect a faith-based nature as well. Now, to what level each local organization pursues this mission is obviously debatable.

[edit] Lodging, Food & Beverage Facilities

In the article, I didn't see a mention about lodging, food and beverage facilities. The YMCA in Singapore, Hong Kong and almost everywhere in the world has this facilities. Could someone add that in. Or is this a seperate entry from the lodging place, YMCA. This goes the same for YWCA. Thanks. --Terence Ong (恭喜发财) 13:39, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Not every Y has residence facilities, but many do; check Google. I'll add something about this. Jordan Brown 07:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Check out this link for YMCAs with residence. http://www.ymca.int/index.php?id=address Some are hostels/hotels while others are student or social housing. This is a listing of many national addresses and those with an asterick should have a residence.User: CS 12:08, 16 December 2006

Hey There - I think the original comment from Terence highlights something of a problem with some of the original article (especially sections: Activities, Parent and Family and Residences), i.e. the bias towards the YMCA in the US. This is in no way a criciticism of the work of the YMCA in the US, nor of the original author/s - but wonder what possibilities exist for making the general sections more inclusive, and moving nation-specific work to separate sections? Cheers for now S J B 15:18, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Dhodges reorged the article a few weeks ago to move most of the North American stuff into its own section. I just added a few qualifiers on some remaining parts that were US-specific but didn't make that clear. Any suggestions for particular reorgs or rewordings would be welcome. (Or do them yourself, of course.) Unfortunately, us US-centric types don't *have* a lot of information on non-US YMCAs... Jordan Brown 08:04, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Promotion of Individual YMCAs or Programs

Please note, this is not the place to promote individual YMCAs or YMCA programs, this is an article about the YMCA in general. You are welcome (encouraged!) to add to the article, but please remember the core YMCA values of Honesty and Respect and do not try to hijack the page.

The External Links section seems to be accumulating links to national YMCA web sites and to a few individual YMCAs. Should there be an organized place to put these links? It seems like listing local YMCAs here won't scale. (But see WP:NOT.) Jordan Brown 00:52, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I've added a note requesting that people not add links below the national level. If somebody thinks it worthwhile to create another article listing individual YMCAs, let's talk about it here. Jordan Brown 01:29, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Note that even a list of national-level YMCAs is pretty long (124 by one count) and so might not be appropriate. Perhaps we can rely on ymca.int's list. Jordan Brown 18:59, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Swimming

the naked swimming issue should be dealt with by pointing it out to the YMCA itself and asking for historical evidence

I deleted the "The following is in dispute" line in the nude swimming paragraph because it seems pretty clear that there actually was nude swimming (see photo on the skinny dipping page.) The source next to that line wasn't too clear; I think whoever put it there wanted us to see the clothed swimming team in the photo on that page as evidence that nude swimming wasn't necessarily widespread, but it's more reasonable to assume they were dressing up for the camera or something. 151.203.178.253 22:57, 4 July 2006 (UTC) John S.

[edit] Funding sources

I'd like some information how the YMCA is funded and how much annual income they generate. These enormous fitness complexes that have been popping up in my city seem like they would cost more to build and operate than what they could ever recoup in membership fees. --Navstar 15:15, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

As registered charities YMCAs all publish audited financial financial statements. Googling "YMCA annual report" or "YMCA financial report" will bring up a whole slew of them. --Dhodges

Can someone integrate this information into the entry? --Navstar 22:53, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Is there anything interesting or notable you were thinking of? It seems to me that their funding is pretty similar to other charitable organizations, a mix of membership, charitable donations, and government support. Of course, tax-free status makes things a lot easier.-Dhodges 00:16, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Here's a few random data points about my local YMCA. The 2007 fund raising campaign handbook says (on page 35) that we're the 2nd largest branch in Los Angeles, serving ~38K people (from an area population of ~411K). It says that the total budget is $8.3M: 7% contributions, 38% membership, 54% program fees, and 1% childcare government grants. $518K is spent on direct financial aid to children and families. The facility is 34K square feet, with an offsite 8K square foot child care facility and 13 additional smaller facilities at schools. There are 57 full-time staff, 217 part-time or seasonal staff, and over a thousand volunteers. Jordan Brown 19:22, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gay Subculture

I don't see any mention of this, nor of the song YMCA at all here, except for a minor link at the bottom. maybe i'll add a heading to draw attention to the significance. can i do that? Donthaveaspaz 20:46, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

From what I can gather, everyone in mainstream culture perceives YMCA as a front for gay activities. Why is there so little mention of this?

No references, probably. -- P.B. Pilhet 20:24, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Also, I think that's a historical perception, not a current one. Jordan Brown 21:34, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

No one perceives YMCA as a front for gay activities. Most perceive it as a place where their kids play sports after school. The gay scene is not nearly what it was years ago, especially in the suburbs. Also, the YMCA never promoted homosexuality on a large scale. Its just that when you create a place for young men to live, work out, and hang out together - certain people will show up. As with most organizations, the YMCA has changed much over the years. Here in Washington State, it's now a lot like the Boys and Girls Clubs.

Same with here, in Ohio. - hmwithtalk 17:00, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Whether YMCA likes it or not, there are many people who associate the organization with male gay culture and it does have a history of being a place where gay men interacted with one another. Sweeping it under the rug completely is an intellectually dishonest way of dealing with this. That there are no references is rather obviously not true. And that's the link at the bottom of this article, by the way.

Peter ^Isotalo 09:03, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

"No one percieves YMCA as a front for gay activities." -Jordan B.

Wrong, YOU don't. You're just trying to hide the obvious truth. P.B. Pilhet 20:24, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] YMCA Camps

I don't see any mention of YMCA Camps here, despite the fact that there are 289 YMCA camps, in most of the 50 states and the District of Columbia, and the YMCA has had camps for over 130 years. Find YMCA Camps

Actually, the article does mention summer camp under Building healthy minds and a strong community.-Dhodges 22:30, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

There is a lot of information about US YMCA camps. Although there is a very significant history of summer camps in the US in general, if the article is going to talk about the history of YMCA summer camps, they should include their development elsewhere. Swimlo (talk) 19:45, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] In Sitcoms

It's funny, the general concept in America is that "The Y" is where you go to work out, but in older sitcoms it seems to be primarily referenced as where men sleep when temporarily kicked out by their wives. Was this ever a common practice, just renting a room at the Y for a couple of nights? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.122.63.142 (talk • contribs) 14:41, 13 September 2006 (UTC).

As noted above, some Ys still offer lodging. According to the YMCA history page, in 1940 there were 100,000 YMCA rooms, more than any hotel chain. Jordan Brown 07:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Header material

20:42, 11 November 2006 218.167.175.17 added some historical material, references to YMHA, YWCA, et cetera. While I've never heard of the YMHA, I've certainly heard of the YWCA and the rest of the material seems correct so I WP:AGF that the stuff I don't know about is correct too.

20:22, 12 November 2006 71.36.101.184 added some commentary about sex which, whether or not it's true, seems like an inappropriate presentation.

22:06, 12 November 2006 69.159.6.101 reverted (without comment) both of these changes. I'm assuming that the real intent was only to revert the latter change, so I've reverted it again to achieve that goal. We can talk here if that wasn't the intent.

Jordan Brown 17:51, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

My bad, you are correct, I meant to only revert the latter change, thanks for catching.

YMHA is indeed an organization as to the YMBA i would WP:AGF that it also exists, but I'm assuming it's obscure. As well, the YMCA might have been an evangelical parachurch organization 125 years ago, but it really isn't in most countries today as far as I can tell. Perhaps these references should move to the history section?

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.223.91.26 (talk • contribs) 03:04, 14 November 2006 (UTC).

Perhaps, no strong feeling. My only real opinion was that the "productive" content shouldn't be removed without comment, and since we've established that that was an error that's not an issue any more.

Jordan Brown 05:31, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History and Mission

I made some changes to the page, specifically relating to the history and mission. I also added some additional information about YMCAs in other countries and the World Alliance of YMCAs. I found that most of the content centered on YMCA programmes in the US. While it's true that the US YMCA is the largest, it is fairly unique in its programming. Most of the 124 YMCAs worldwide do not have the same programs. YMCA programming is reflective of the community in which it serves, and the realities in most countries are very different than that of the US. So, I hope the changes are acceptable to those who have been posting to this page and that I haven't removed/changed/moved anything so as to be offensive to anyone who posted it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wa communication team (talk • contribs) 21:51, 15 December 2006 (UTC).

Your changes look mostly good to me. (Some of the US-centric stuff was mine... sigh.) The History section seems a bit awkward. Perhaps there should be a prose section describing the history of the Y in a couple of paragraphs, and a timeline section showing notable events in bullet form. Regardless, the timeline part should be consistent - the current text has some "in 1937, ..." entries, some "1950: ..." entries, and a few "1950 ..." entries. I could take a whack at separating the two, but don't really have the time to do it right.

Jordan Brown 07:57, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments. I agree. Unfortunately, it looks as if someone reverted back to the page as it was prior to any changes I made. All of my information was accurate and taken from the global YMCA archives in Geneva, Switzerland. As the page stands now, it has good information about the US YMCA but does not accurately reflect the YMCA as a worldwide movement. Moreover, some of the information is actually incorrect (for example, there are 124 National Movements rather than 122). The comment that the triangle logo is only used in the US and Canada is also incorrect. I am not interested in having an editing war, but I feel strongly that this page could better reflect the scope of YMCA work and its presence in the global community. Any ideas what I should do? I don't know the Wikipedia etiquette on reverting back to a prior page. Also, I have photos to support much of the historical section that I added previously, but I am not sure how to upload them. Do you have any advice? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.14.100.36 (talk) 17:57, 16 December 2006 (UTC).

Sorry, forgot to log in/sign. I am C.S., a volunteer for the WA communication team —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.14.100.36 (talk) 18:01, 16 December 2006 (UTC).

Check again; I don't see any reversion. You had four revs, then Dhodges fixed your bullet list, then I did a little cleanup in the External Links section. Jordan Brown 20:08, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

How strange. When I type "YMCA" into the wikipedia home page, it pulls up the original text. Then, if I change tabs to "discussion" or "history" and go back to "article" the text is as I revised it. I've tried it 3 times. I think I'm going crazy. Anyway, I will work on the history and standardizing the timeline as you suggested. User: CS

Sounds like a browser cache or caching proxy issue. Try searching, so that you end up at the "old" version, and then shift+refresh to force the caches to be flushed. Jordan Brown 22:50, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Challenge 21

The Challenge 21 page looks more like a paraphrase than like the original text. It'd be good to find original text. Jordan Brown 18:22, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

The Challenge 21 information is great, but it should be made clearer that it is the strategic direction of the World Alliance of YMCAs and not necessary of individual YMCAs or national federations. The YMCA is a 'bottom up' organization, not a 'top down' organization. 69.159.27.186 04:59, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

That's true - Challenge 21 is the strategic directon adopted by the World Alliance. It aims to generally encompass the mission of all YMCAs, but each national YMCA has their own mission. Also, the Challenge 21 text is not paraphrased - it is the official language of a resolution adopted at the 14th World COuncil in Frechen, Germany in 1998. User: CS

Why such a push to remove the the "Christianity" from the YMCA? These organizations do indeed agree to the charter to be part of the global YMCA organization -- and they are faith-based organizations. Just as homeless folks eat at church-sponsored food kitchens -- no one cares who's doing the serving -- especially the homeless. The YMCA does in fact hire Interfaith Directors to work with local faith-based organizations to cultivate their relationships with the YMCA. I think this section is straight-forward and should not be changed.

[edit] Links to national Ys

We have two kinds of links to national Ys: Wikipedia links and links directly to the organizations' sites. It seems like these should be in the same section, but normally "See Also" contains intra-WP links and "External Links" contains external links. Any ideas? Jordan Brown 19:42, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Early dates

The article used to say

1855: There were YMCAs in Great Britain, Canada, the United States, Australia, Switzerland, Germany, the Netherlands and France.

Somebody changed it to 1851. I can't say whether or not that's correct; I haven't been able to find a good reference. By 1855 (and the 1st World Conference) it's pretty clear that the listed included most of those (Australia being iffy), but unfortunately the YMCA.INT history only says:

1845 : Development of YMCAs in Switzerland, USA, France, Canada, Germany, Netherlands.

and it's pretty clear from the well-documented dates for Montreal and Boston that that doesn't mean "in 1845" or "by 1845"; it probably means "starting 1845".

Anybody have a better reference to nail this down?

Jordan Brown 00:08, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Founding Dates:

Australia (1850) - [1] [2] Switzerland (1852) - [3] some sources say that Geneva was the first YMCA in Switzerland. Unfortunately the 'French' version of the Swiss site is in German, I can't read it. France (1855) - [4], although when you read the french version of the Paris YMCA site, it seems to imply that YMCAs existed in France prior to 1855, but doesn't give dates. Seeing as the Paris Basis was signed in 1855, I suspect that YMCAs were active prior to 1855 in France. USA (1851) - Well established. Canada (1851) - Well established. Germany - Signed the Paris Basis in 1855 must have existed then. Netherlands - Signed the Paris Basis in 1855 must have existed then.

Informal YMCA's would have been afoot prior to the founding dates in each of the countries. Organizations similar to the YMCA existed prior to its founding in London. Some of these organizations became YMCAs later in their history, so to definitely say when a YMCA started in a particular place is most likely impossible. I would word more like - 'after the London YMCA was founded, YMCAs started to form in other countries...' and then talk about the Paris Basis in 1855.

Cometward 19:37, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism, March 26, 2007

While surfing the wikipedia articles, i found the following...

"...was unusual because it crossed the rigid lines that separated the chavujf igisu hugy79fdsuo hougyfudsuhj hu8yugfewjkh87yghfjkheuw9py8ghuofhdaoghrtew4548h4g5r4s5hgrs54h45ds2g5jh2g2hchurches and social classes of England, making the YMCA a pioneer..."

...ok that's obvious vandalism. Tankmaster46 15:21, 26 March 2007 (UTC)—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tankmaster46 (talk • contribs) 15:21, 26 March 2007 (UTC).

Yep. Reverted. Jordan Brown 16:01, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Workout

The YMCA is also a Work out place too —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Leona leblanc (talk • contribs) 14:49, March 26, 2007 (UTC).

I think that is covered in the article under the Sport and Fitness subsection of the YMCA's operation in North America. Swimlo (talk) 19:55, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Note on broken reference link

Your 10th reference, the link says: McGaw YMCA, Evanston Illinois.

It redirects to here: http://www.ymcacommunity.net/mcgaw/residence/

You get a 404 error as it is part of the Link Rot wikiproject. I have added a link that takes you to the latest archived page of it. If you find a current page feel free to update it. Visit the Linkrot page if you would like to help!

Thank You. --Psychless 00:20, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Greek YMCA Website

www.ymca.gr

[edit] Early Learning Centers

The Article doesn't mention anything about a lot centers having a DayCare. Not to mention that most provide child care while adults are working out and whatnot. Also, if the rest of YMCA doesn't push a Christian agenda, they do pray openly at meal times in the day care, though at the particular Y I visit they aren't reading bible stories or anything. 134.193.156.93 (talk) 15:17, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Secretary

I've encountered multiple biographies (inside and outside Wikipedia) recently that describe someone as a YMCA or YWCA Secretary. Is this a term that merits more coverage here or in a subarticle? Or is it a term with multiple meanings, depending on what level of the organization they were a secretary for? GRBerry 18:30, 6 June 2008 (UTC)