Talk:Witch (etymology)
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[edit] A work in progress...
I have started this page by cutting about 5k of text from each of the Witchcraft and Wicca articles and simply pasting it here. This has improved the other two articles (I hope!) but the result here is something of a dog's breakfast. There is inevitably a lot of repetition from both original articles, and I haven't Wikified this new one properly yet.
I'm no expert on etymology, so there's not much I can do towards the technical aspects of the article's content. Please could those with more knowledge help? However I will try and tidy up the presentation in due course. Kim dent brown 09:48, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, I agree, this is a bit of a dog's breakfast. While it is good to shorten overly lengthy articles (like Witchcraft and Wicca) I am not sure everything here goes together to make a spearate article. Information about the origins of the word Wicca is very relevant to the Wicca entry because the texts of the religion offer a multitude of possible origins (generally false). Presently the Wicca entry has some information about the etymology there, and there is some here in this entry. It really should be all together. The etymology of the word modern English word "witch" is actually only relevant because of the relevance of the etymology of "Wicca". Wikipedia is not an etymological dictionary, after all. If anything, this article should be retitled "Wicca (etymology)", and should start with Gardner, then eventually move on to the discussion of what "wicca/wicce" meant in Old English, and finally the reconstructed Indo-European roots - which are relelvant as Wiccans are forever discussing what they imagine the root of "Wicca" to be.WikiLambo 13:03, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] PIE root suggestions
since the geminate kk (Verschärfung) isn't well understood anyway, the Proto-Germanic root may be either wik or wig, which means that the PIE root could have been either weik or weg. *veid seems out of the question unless a reliable source is cited.
*weg seems favoured by the AHD. OED has "of obscure origin". Concerning *weik, various interpretations are possible, including "dividing [lots]" (Lühr) and "turn, bend" (Holthausen AeEW). dab (𒁳) 15:43, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Witch vs. hag/haegtesse
In what way did the terms witch and hag/haegtesse overlap and differ from each other, in pre-modern times, and in pre-Christian times? Is there any evidence that one was preferred over the other before modernity, and if so, where there specific local differences in Germanic regions (such as in Scandinavia, later Germany, and later England) on using one or the other? Were there specific changes over time from antiquity to modernity concerning the preference of one or the other? Could it be that depending on malevolent or benevolent context (in labelling, or in the behaviour of the people labelled), one was favored over the other? Could it be that specific ancient Norse and/or Germanic animosities towards these people (such as common pre-Christian burning) were totally obscured when modern Wiccas got hold of the term (see nithing on ancient burning of people practicing seid, a custom prolonged into Christian times by parts of the Pseudo-Isidore fabricated by Frankish monk Benedictus Levita that was the main link from ancient Germanic burning to the Malleus maleficarum it directly inspired)? Is there a gender-neutral English word derived from Latin maleficus/malefica, akin to German Schadenszauberer? I remember there once was an entry for haegtesse years ago addressing some of these issues, but it seems like it's got lost. --Tlatosmd 17:49, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- interesting question, but I believe almost nothing can be said about hægtesse/Hexe. Note that Old English had no gender-neutral words on principle, only neuter gender ones. Modern English witch is, in fact, gender-neutral, although used very rarely in reference to a male. dab (𒁳) 19:29, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] New material
Additions include links to sources.24.168.227.29 21:33, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Dubious material about origins of the religion
I just removed this paragraph from the "modern Wicca" section:
- The Online Etymology Dictionary states "the priests of a suppressed religion naturally become magicians to its successors or opponents."[1] It appears disputed in the case of witches whether this debasement in evaluation from holy priests to evil sorcerers occured as late as with the advent of Christianity as modern neo-pagan wiccas claim, or whether it originally started with the original debasement of the Vanir religion that witchcraft had been part of, as Vanir religion had increasingly become replaced in Germanic and Norse folk religion by a super-stratum of Indo-European Aesir religion looking down upon autochtonous Vanir fertility magic cults after the invasion and settlement of Indo-European tribes in northern Europe (see Kurgan hypothesis on the ethnological background, and on a Norse concept closely related to witchcraft aka seid see Níð).[1]
Firstly, it isn't about etymology. Secondly, The Online Etymology Dictionary does NOT state that "the priests of a suppressed religion naturally become magicians to its successors or opponents." (maybe it once did, but I doubt it) Thirdly, the source quoted (Bleibtreu-Ehrenberg, Gisela (1978). Tabu Homosexualität etc.) is apparently not related to this topic, nor the source of this information.
WikiLambo 12:50, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Graves' etymology
do we absolutely need to give Graves' shot at the Germanic etymology of the term, even if it was painfully clear from the moment he came up with it that it is completely wrong? Maybe move it to the "Wicca" section, since it may have had some impact on Wiccans (while certainly not on etymologists)? dab (𒁳) 10:21, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
