Talk:William Lyon Mackenzie King

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Contents

[edit] Greatest?

No question he was an extremely influential, and obviously an extremely popular PM, but is it fair to say he was the greatest? It could be argued that Trudeau, Pearson, Macdonnald etc... could be considered the greatest as well. And for a pop-culture reference, he didn't make the top ten on The Greatest Canadian, but Trudeau and MacDonnald both did. mylesmalley 16:24, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

It strikes me that the section on the 1920s is unbalanced. He was prime minister for almost the entire decade. Surely he did more than triumph over Byng and Meighen in 1926. Does anyone have more details about the sorts of things he was doing in the 1920s? HistoryBA 20:27, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

In addition, can someone straighten out the correct form of the surname, whether it's "Mackenzie King, William Lyon" or "King, William Lyon Mackenzie"? I think the first is correct, but this article uses a random mixture of the two surname forms. --Johnwcowan 21:12, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

King's surname was King. He called himself Mackenzie King to emphasize his ties with his grandfather Mackenzie. Mackenzie, however, was one of his given names, not his surname. Deleting Unnecessary Words 00:24, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I decided to be bold and removed this bit: "In 1999 King was ranked by historians to be the gatest of Canada's Prime Ministers. (Granatstein & Hillmer, Prime Ministers: Ranking Canada's Leaders.)" Yeah, whatever, Granatstein and Hillmer.Bobanny(eyes rolling) 14:31, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
  • With all due respect, Granatstein and Hillmer are pretty good historians. King would certainly be among the greatest PMs, whatever the criteria, especially if longevity was a main criteria.Moomot 05:38, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Indeed, Granatstein and Hillmer aren't historians whose judgement we should should scoff at. I think you need to justify the edit with more than with just an eye roll. Boubelium 07:47, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I think mylesmalley made a good point above that justifies removing that claim from the article. Granatstein and Hillmer's claim that King was the greatest PM is a value judgement and has nothing to do with their skills as historians. Besides, scoffing at Granatstein is a proud tradition of Canadian historians, and vice versa. Personally, I find that kind of gushing reverence for any Prime Minister nauseating, especially when it's cloaked as an objective fact, but don't worry, I'll keep my personal opinions out of the article. And please, don't remove the bit about Japanese Canadian being interned during WWII just because Granatstein says it never happened. Bobanny 07:09, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
  • You obviously are intelligent, perhaps if you were less sarcastic and more informative you would have found less issues with your edit. Having read your argument, I agree. You are correct that the greatest PM title does not belong in this article. As for your condescending comments about the Japanese internment, ironically, I spent some time expanding the racism section of this article. Regarding the Granatstein article, he does not claim that "it never happened" but instead argues the semantics of the term 'internment'. Your paraphrasing is either quite careless or malicious; you're essentially making him sound like a Holocaust Denier, which is far from the case. I do appreciate you pointing out the article though, because we (likely) both agree that Granatstein is on dubious ground. When Granatstein argues that there was a 'unanimous call for evacuation" he is exaggerating. See my racism edits on King for evidence. Then again perhaps those that didn't actually fear the Japanese could have supported the internment out fear for their safety, especially given the long history of anti-Asian violence in Vancouver. But, whatever, I don't agree with Granatstein's general perspective here. He's still a great historian even if we don't agree with him that the word 'internment' should be replaces with 'evacuation'. This reminds me, the internment article needs a lot of work. Perhaps we should be discussing this there. Regards Moomot 18:48, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
  • I see that you did read my additions to "Racism," and you improved the writing. Thank You. Moomot 19:19, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I'll try and put my smarminess aside. I stand by my opinion that Granatstein's point about Japanese internment is more than semantics, because behind those words are the meaning of the event. "Evacuation" and "internment" are two different things. Yes they were evacuated, but it was quite a different circumstance than, say, an evacuation of an area during a flood or forest fire threat. In the connotation of the word "evacuation," it's purely circumstantial, or an unfortunate event, where no one is to blame but the forces of nature or history. "Forcible displacement" would be more precise to describe the actual removal of those people from their homes. "Internment" on the other hand, is an act of war, defensive or offensive, in which people are confined under threat somewhere and dispossessed of their property and belongings. If the Japanese had resisted the internment, it probably would have looked more like what Granatstein claims the word implies. The scale of the holocaust makes that comparison unfair, but the underlying principle is the same: a nationalist glossing of the past, and that's what I'm accusing Granatstein of. He's defending a view whereby the true or authentic "Canadian" identity or experience is represented by the most privileged people in society, the "great men" of history like King. Hence the unanimous call for evacuation. Japanese-Canadians were not calling for evacuation, nor were the RCMP operatives who reported that no national security threat existed from west coast Japanese. Local white entrepreneurs who scored some great deals on Japanese property and were able to take over that portion of the coastal fishing industry as a result were the voice of Canada in the national pride version. It's also worth pointing out that some Italians, who actually did have fascist sympathies and affiliations, were interned as well, but only for a short while and then in relatively swanky conditions in Ontario. The things I feel are most worthy of Canadian pride are where past mistakes are not forgotten or minimized, but are openly acknowledged and measures are taken to ensure they aren't repeated. This discussion is also relevant to the current issue of redress for the Chinese head tax, which has brought out some of that old racist sentiment here in Vancouver. But, the average Chinese or Japanese on the west coast are as prosperous, if not more, than whites, and that's a change to be proud of. I don't believe, as Granatstein does, that highlighting past injustices constitutes a chronicle of shame, as if it somehow cancels out the positive things in the past, just like King's racism doesn't cancel out his accomplishments. Similarly, again, I'm not questioning Granatstein's abilities as a historian or his notable contributions to Canadian historiography because of my opinion of him on this, just as, hopefully, your opinion that I'm condescending doesn't cancel out the one that says I'm intelligent (you could probably add "wordy" to that list :) Bobanny 20:21, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm pasting this to the internment section. Well said. Moomot 01:12, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Preceded/Succeeded

Seems to be a problem with either the names or the dates in the chart at the bottom. I don't have time to fix it now, and I'm not sure how to use these tables properly, but if it's not fixed i'll come back and try to sort it out.

  • Huh? Looks OK to me... Fawcett5 04:28, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

my bad, got confused by Meighan's 28 day term --Goog 21:10, May 17, 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Crystal Ball

I have been asked why I keep making this insert, I was watching a Canadian political talk show yesterday "Countdown", on CTV and they were talking about it, when they smelt like manure they were talking sillyilly about the Speakers BBQ, they talked about Mackenzie King because the house was his. At this time they talked about how he had a Crystal Ball and a Ouija board, which he used as advisors to help him make his important decisions. - Meanie.

With all due respect to "Countdown," journalists tend to sensationalize history, as they frequently do with King. The truth is better found in the work of scholars like Charles Stacey, Joy Esberey, and Blair Neatby. King did own a crystal ball, which was given to him by a friend, but did not use it or believe that it could be used to contact the spirits. His diaries contain no reference to a ouija board. He was, however, a spiritualist, beleving that he could contact the deceased through the help of a medium. HistoryBA 00:59, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

He did use something called table-rapping apparently, and maybe we should list a few of his favourite psychics and mediums. 74.121.138.53 20:29, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

It should be noted that the "famous" (or I should say infamous) crystal ball they have at Laurier House did belong to King, but was never used by him. It was a gift from someone who somehow heard about King's spiritualism. King was kind of embarassed by the gift because he felt his practice of spiritualism was a very personal thing. HE DID NOT HAVE A OUIJA BOARD. There is a lot of hype surrounding the spiritualist aspect of his life, but most of it is blown out of proportion. It is important to remember that King was a Victorian and a Romantic, and many other people at that time practiced spiritualism. 74.104.154.62 21:41, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Many people were racist and anti-Semitic back then too, that doesn't really change its significance. I reverted your edits on the spiritualism stuff because it replaced a fair bit of detail. If you think what is there is wrong, please back that up, with verifiable sources if possible. Having worked at the museum doesn't count - here, you're just a number to us, not an authority. King's diaries are available online btw, at the NAC website I believe. Much of what's there now isn't properly sourced either, and may well be incorrect, but in respecting other editors work, etiquette demands that changes are demonstrably improvements, not just steps sideways. Thanks, Bobanny 23:10, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] None is too many

Wasn't it Blair himself who said "none is too many"? HistoryBA 23:48, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it was, and I'm removing the line from the bio. F.C. Blair was a notorious little anti-Semite (and back when that term meant "racist against Jews" and not "disagrees with Israeli policy") whose words shouldn't be attributed to W.L.M. King. -Scientz 15:34, 4 May 2006 (EST)

I think that this section rather unfair. King was not opposed to allowing Jewish refugees but submitted to the will of his cabinet, the majority of whom were opposed to the idea. His policy was the result of political expediency not any particular anti-semitism on his part.

  • That is too kind to King. In the Canadian parliamentary system the leader holds a lot of power, if King was not an anti-semite then he could have spoken-up. Furthermore, he visited Hitler and felt that he was a kind and gentle man. This was long after Mein Kampf was published and the whole world knew Hitler's take on Jews. There is little doubt that King was an racist. Moomot 21:36, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

Could someone please clean up the vandalism of this article? The first paragraph seems a bit out of hand.

Done. But you could have done it yourself :) Adam Bishop 20:03, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Question

Was he the only unmarried Prime Minister? If so, it seems that should be mentioned. Also, someone with some free time should move those quotes to WikiQuote :) Sherurcij (talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject) 00:28, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

No. R.B. Bennett was a bachelor. HistoryBA 02:45, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
And Trudeau was a bachelor when he started. --Funkmaster 801 12:35, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
And Campbell was a divorceé when she was Prime Minister. Fishhead64, 15:14, 04 February 2006 (UTC)
Oh sure, exhibit my atrocious lack of knowledge about my own country! grins Anyways, in my defence I knew those except Bennett...so now I have to go read about Bennett. Sherurcij (talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject) 23:47, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Anti-Semitism" Section

I changed the name of the section entitled "anti-semitsm" due to its content dealing with Japanese-Canadians, as well as Jews.

[edit] Hee Hee...fortune teller

I think this line might contraindicate one's powers of prognostication- "Indeed, after his death, one of his mediums said that she had not realized that he was a politician." L0b0t 02:55, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] His Friends at the University of Toronto

I have noted that in the "Mackenzie King Diaries" found online, he makes continual references to his membership in the Kappa Alpha Society and cross-referencing with the names of his cabinet ministers over the course of both his terms as prime minister, nine of which are members of the Kappa Alpha Society. I realize someone has removed this said fact from his Early Life summary, however that deletion would be incorrect.

[edit] Flipped photograph

It's obvious that the photograph with Churchill and Roosevelt has been flipped. British military officers wear their ribbons on the left, not the right. Can this be changed? (I made the same comment at the photo's image page.) Jhobson1 13:31, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Legacy

The Legacy section does not cite sources, and makes some claims which whiff of original research.

1998 controversy re: memorial Quebec Conference of 1943 -- I can't find a reference for this. Anyone?

Some have suggested that King was racist, pointing to two policies; that only 4500 Jews were accepted into Canada during the Holocaust, and the internment of the Japanese Canadians during the Second World War. However, it must be noted that these were the mainstream attitudes of the time.

  • Holocaust: History of the Jews in Canada says 5000. Which is it? Neither article cites a source.
  • Mainstream attitudes of the time – according to... what source?
  • "must be noted" seems like an inappropriate apologia.

Mackenzie King was not charismatic or media-savvy and did not have a large personal following. It is often suggested that he would not have held power as long as he did, or even at all, during the age of television which was ushered in not long after his retirement.

  • Source attesting to his lack of personal magnetism.
  • Speculation about television smells strongly of original research. Often suggested by whom?

Cleduc 06:11, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of Entire "Racism" Section

I've reinserted the "racism" section after it was removed in its entirety by editor RucasHost. I left a message on that editors user page indicating that removing entire referenced sections without at least some prior discussion in an appropriate forum is unacceptable on Wikipedia.Deconstructhis 18:40, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

  • I've once again replaced an entire referenced section of this article that was removed by editor RucasHost. RucasHost appears to be unwilling to engage in discussion regarding this matter here on the articles "talk" page, despite the large amount of referenced material he is choosing to delete, the fact that most of the material is referenced, and considering that the subjects contained in the section have already been discussed and arrived at through consensus in the past. If there are objections to claims in this section, I would like to ask him to discuss his issues with the material here on the talk page before removing a relatively large part of the material contained in the article, providing counter references would be a good start. This Prime Minister was a fairly controversial figure in Canadian history,many of the facts of his life may appear startling to some at first glance, but dismissing negative allegations concerning him as "slander" without knowing the historical background supporting them is shaky ground to say the least. I'm hoping for support from other editors in this regard. I will attempt to provide other references for this section later in the week. Deconstructhis 00:44, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Once again reverted deletion of an entire referenced section of this article by editor RucasHost, who despite the fact that most of the section is specifically referenced with footnotes leading to reputably published sources:

^ Knowles, Valerie. Strangers at Our Gates: Canadian Immigration and Immigration Policy, 1540-1997, (Toronto: Dundurn, 1997)

^ Ferguson, Will. Bastards and Boneheads: Canada's Glorious Leaders Past and Present, (Vancouver: Douglas and McIntyre, 1999) pg. 168.

^ Sunahara, Ann Gomer. The Politics of Racism: The Uprooting of Japanese Canadians During the Second World War, (Toronto: Lorimer, 1981) pg. 23.

continues to insist that the entire section is "unreferenced" and constitutes, in his words, "slander". This editor appears unwilling to discuss this issue on the talk page for the article itself or proceed in a reasonable manner, such as placing citation requests for the specific material he disputes in the body of the article. I will place a second stage vandalism warning on this editors "user" page and continue to hope that he will proceed in a more reasonable fashion.Deconstructhis 02:47, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

None of the sources you cite use the word "racist". It is one thing to document his activities, it is another to apply your own pejorative description. (see WP:BIO, WP:RS, WP:OR). --RucasHost 03:11, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Please be aware that I was not personally involved in posting any of the material that appears in the section that you continue to delete, apart from placing the qualifier "alleged" in the title of the section itself. The allegations of "racism" applied to Mackenzie King *are* in fact supported by the references provided by the original poster(s) if you take the time to actually look them up and if you study the discussion section of this article you will see that this information was arrived at through consensus, in some cases, several years ago. My objection in our disagreement has to do with your editing practices, that despite the fact that the material does contain referenced footnotes for the bulk of the section, you choose to simply delete the entire section instead of challenging it in a manner keeping with Wikipedia policy. I am willing to discuss any of this in a reasonable fashion on the appropriate discussion page, but I am not willing to simply standby and watch referenced materials deleted from an article simply because a given editor appears to disagree with it for personal reasons. I have requested the opinion of an administrator in this regard and I'm quite happy to await another opinion. Thank you Deconstructhis 03:45, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't condone undiscussed deletions of referenced materials; however, I'd suspect the POV of some of the references given. It is no great feat to get published, especially if you can tantalize the public's tastes for sensationalism and controversy. Just because authors make accusations in print doesn't mean that we who are building an encyclopedia need to pander to the tactics. Why don't we seriously consider whether this man was a racist in the standards of his time, and whether he as the leader was in control of all of these alleged situations. If he is a racist, then so was Roosevelt, Churchill and other allied leaders. --Kevin Murray 22:33, 3 November 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Third Opinion

I've looked over the dispute, the article history and the talk page. The section appears to be properly sourced and was accepted by clear consensus as representative of the sources. If there is disagreement over the interpretation of some of the sources, there needs to be a discussion about the exact citations on this talk page before any deletion or major editing takes place; if no new consensus can be reached here, then dispute resolution may be required.

At this point, further unilateral deletions of the section would be properly considered to be disruptive editing. — Coren (talk) 19:32, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fourth opinion

I would say that wholesale deletion of this information is going too far, but the weight of the coverage is out of scale to the article. Many of the allegations are regarding typical actions and beliefs held at that time and could be asserted regarding most US and Canadian leaders of the era. I would prefer to see the section toned down and specifically realted to the man's actions or verifiable statements. Interpreting the motivation of the actions as racism violates OR, unless independent writers of sufficient credibility and stature have made the claim. Abe Lincoln would be a racist by today's standards. --Kevin Murray 21:37, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

FWIW, I agree with your renaming of the section, and with tweaking it in general. I was, of course, only referring to wholesale deletion without consensus. — Coren (talk) 22:13, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes, thanks! I am a bit concerned about this type of section creeping into several articles I've seen lately. I think that all of the information is good if POV is minimized, but it should be in a central location. For example last week there was an issue about a prominent section on post WWII allied looting in the article for a pestigous museum -- way out of proportion to their involvement through ownership of some artifacts. --Kevin Murray 22:25, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
I don't condone undiscussed deletions of referenced materials; however, I'd suspect the POV of some of the references given. It is no great feat to get published, especially if you can tantalize the public's tastes for sensationalism and controversy. Just because authors make accusations in print doesn't mean that we who are building an encyclopedia need to pander to the tactics. Why don't we seriously consider whether this man was a racist in the standards of his time, and whether he as the leader was in control of all of these alleged situations. If he is a racist, then so was Roosevelt, Churchill and other allied leaders. --Kevin Murray 22:33, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Overall, I'm pretty much in agreement with your position. I've had certain reservations myself regarding the sectionsapproach and tone right from the start, my primary objection in the present situation had to do with what I think is a violation of an important principle on Wikipedia, that material that's appropriately referenced from reliable sources and arrived at through some form of consensus should not be removed in bulk by a single editor without the involvement of proper process. In terms of allegations that Mackenzie-King himself was a "racist", although I understand your point that, contextually ,historical figures are embedded in the "normal" prejudices of their time and subject to the same social influences that everyone else in their society is, in another sense, so long as there is a 'range' of opinion available to them to choose from in the context of their culture at that time; how can we not hold them to account for choosing to believe certain things and not others, as individuals? Not so much that Mackenzie-King was a "racist", but that he held certain "racialist" beliefs to be true and acted on them. The same was true of his contemporaries,both those in a leadership capacities and otherwise, some held to those positions, perhaps even a majority of the population, others did not. I'm in support of your title change for the section. All I'm really interested in is seeing a good properly referenced article.Deconstructhis 22:40, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Without being in the heat of the issue at the time it is hard to be critical, but could we have benefited from the wisdom of the concern and tried to tone down the POV of the section sooner. Perhaps one editor was too bold and one too timid. I would hate to see policy stand in the way of a better article. It can be tough and I think all concerned are in their own ways trying to build a better project. Cheers! --Kevin Murray 22:46, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:CAD50 Front.png

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[edit] King's Diaries Online

As is indicated in the links section, King's diaries are actually available online, although as primary documents they are not allowable in this context here on Wikipeida. Nonetheless I decided to replace an existing quote regarding King's opinion of Hitler (which I was unable to locate in the diary) with one that matches its sentiments and does appear in that source. I decided to leave the request for a citation in place at this time so that if they choose someone can provide a legitimate citation from a proper secondary source in the future. King's comments on Hitler appear in the diary entry dated March 27, 1938 pg. 4. It's interesting to note that on that very same page, King expresses a disagreement with Hitler regarding his treatment of Jews. The citation I provided for King's seminal influence on the development of narcotic laws in Canada, based on his experiences in investigating the opium problem in the asian community of Vancouver in the early 1900's, was one of many that are out there. After a quick run through, there appears to be little in the literature that indicates anything other than King's critical involvement in the founding of narcotic laws in Canada. I will attempt to find a proper source indicating King's participation in the policies leading to the incarceration of Japanese Canadians in the 1940's and related issues.Deconstructhis 02:33, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

  • The diaries are likely to be legitimate sources. We are precluded from perfroming primary research but not using primary sources. Primary sources are only precluded from use as a demonstration of notability. We should be careful that we are not taking information out of context, presenting the big picture,a nd not drawing conclusions from his statements. --Kevin Murray 03:30, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
  • After reading the Hitler quote, I think that you should add the citation and remove the fact tag. --Kevin Murray 03:32, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Thanks for straightening me out on the sourcing issue. I've been operating under the assumption that primary sources were precluded in totality and that citing them in and of itself constituted "original research". The diaries are interesting documents. It's said that before MK died, he had instructed his estate to do 'extractions' of certain parts of their contents and that they were never to be published in their entirety. His wishes were not abided by and as a result, we have a much fuller perspective of MK, as a man, than obviously he ever intended us to have.Deconstructhis 04:47, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Longest Serving In British Commonwealth

According to Brian Nolan's 1988 Account he was longest serving democratically elected leader of any Western country, certainly a more prestigious and legitimate honour for King. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Malachi is survivin (talk • contribs) 04:41, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Doctorate?

I notice that someone has recently changed the remark about King being the first Canadian PM to hold a Ph.D. to being the second.

But is it clear that King actually earned his Ph.D. at all? After all, the Ph.D. is not listed among his postnomial letters. And it would appear to me from his biography at the Canadian Dictionary of Biography Online that he left his doctoral programme at Harvard without finishing his Ph.D. in order to become Deputy Minister of Labour.

If no one can provide proof that King actually finished his Ph.D., I'll delete the reference to him having completed his doctorate.

Adam_sk (talk) 05:20, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

On second thought, I'm going to assume that he actually received his Ph.D. in 1909, as claimed in the current Wikipedia article and some other websites and add that to his list of postnomial letters. Though it would still be helpful if someone could cite a source as to when he got his Ph.D., and what his dissertation was about.
Adam_sk (talk) 05:30, 30 January 2008 (UTC)