Wikipedia talk:WikiProject The Beatles/Archive 12

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents 1 The Blues White Album 2 Freddie Lennon 3 Links to Discography? 4 "Notes" or "References"? 5 Brian 6 Trivia 7 Julia Lennon 8 World War II and Macca 9 Sgt. Pepper Infobox 10 New editors on the block 11 The beat-less 'article' 12 Trivia - what trivia? 13 "A Day In the Life: An Interpretation" by W.P. Norton 14 Trademark 15 GA 16 Policy 17 Us 18 The The 19 All We Are Saying Index 20 Mal Evans 21 Category:The Beatles EPs 22 Please Please Me 23 GA—which is a short step from a B-article 24 Mal Evans 25 The Beatles' miscellanea 26 Brian Epstein 27 Arbitration

The Blues White Album

Hey folks.. been quite a while. Anyway, I did a quick search and could find nothing on Wikipedia about this album. Apparently it was released in 2002. Today was the first time I came across it - randomly on the 'Net as I was auto-tagging a Beatles song for MediaMonkey.

“	This is not a new idea: in 2001 the English label Indigo produced a collection of Beatles songs by British and American blues artists. That was patchy, and so is this. The Beatles' heavy-handed treatment of "Why Don't We Do It in the Road?" was intended (surely?) to be a joke, so for Jimmy Thackery and the Drivers to roll it flat like a steamroller is kind of missing the point. Pity it's the first track. In fact it's a pity the whole album wasn't reshuffled, because the best stuff only begins to appear about halfway through. Maria Muldaur's reading of "Ob-la-di, Ob-la-da" leeches out all its cuteness, Chris Duarte's guitar-playing in "I'm So Tired" belies the title, Charlie Musselwhite and Colin Linden go arm-in-arm with harmonica and guitar to take "Dear Prudence" for a long walk and Linden also makes a pretty country blues in the style of Mississippi John Hurt out of "Blackbird". Better than all these, however, is Joe Louis Walker's eight-minute version of "While My Guitar Gently Weeps", which it may not be fanciful to hear as a moving elegy for George Harrison.	”
—Tony Russell

I was just wondering if it might deserve mention, its own article, or .. has anyone here heard it even..?

Anyway, the Amazon info for it is here. --Mal 11:20, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like a reet good Sat'day night out at the East Leeds Labour Working Men's Club. andreasegde 07:20, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't follow you Andrea. Has anyone any idea whether this album should have its own article or whatever? --Mal 19:28, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't think so Mal, it may warrant a mention in The Beatles trivia though? Cheers, Vera, Chuck & Dave 20:04, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Chuck. I just had a thought, and I'm going to put double squares around all the names mentioned above in the Amazon quote to see if any of them turn blue.. obviously Mississippi John Hurt is going to turn blue, or my name isn't Mal 07:33, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh look - they all turned blue (apart from The Drivers). --Mal 08:25, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

You could put it in The Beatles' influence on popular culture, and I have to say that I like your sense of humour. (Positive comment, BTW.) andreasegde 13:27, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh aye, dead witty that. Vera, Chuck & Dave 16:04, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Why not mention it on White Album too if it's not already. The artists are plenty notable. heck maybe it deserves an article of its own, are there any critical reviews and suchlike to build an article from? ++Lar: t/c 18:05, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Mention it on White Album? LOL! Has anyone heard this garbage? Just another bunch of has beens and neverreallywaser's trying to make a few quid off the back of The Beatles as per! [1] Vera, Chuck & Dave 12:54, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Freddie Lennon

Little Freddie Lennon has been put for a GAR. Would someone look at it for stupid mistakes, and give it a wipe with a damp cloth? andreasegde 09:23, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I've had a loook like, an' he loooks a lot better without his leg irons (LOL!) Hilda Baker & The Deaf Ada's

He had braces, but he didn't use them to hold his pants up. andreasegde 02:17, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Links to Discography?

I have made a few changes to Beatles-related article. As I am editing, I often want to go to the Beatles discography in order to navigate to some other album. I know I can make a bookmark, but another alternative is to add a link to the discography in the infobox. Any support for that idea? John Cardinal 15:33, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. Look before you leap! I just found that the list of Beatle albums is present on most songs. I was just editing Twist and Shout, which didn't have it. Never mind. John Cardinal 15:36, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

"Notes" or "References"?

Some Beatle-related pages use a "Notes" section for footnotes, and a "References" section for references to uncited documentation. Other pages use the "References" section for footnotes. Shouldn't this be consistent? WP:FOOT is ambivilent; it says, "Place the <references/> tag in a "Notes" or "References" section near the end of the article." John Cardinal 17:10, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Good point. The ones I have worked on use 'Notes' to specify page numers from books and web citations, and 'References' to list the books the page numbers were taken from. andreasegde 17:58, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Brian

I think Brian Epstein could be a GA, with a little work. Anybody agree? andreasegde 20:35, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Trivia

The Beatles trivia is now "The Beatles’ miscellanea". Let the trivia zealots boil their heads in oil... andreasegde 21:08, 10 February 2007 (UTC

Julia Lennon

Julia is now a Good Article. Freddie Lennon is next...Easy, easy, easy, easy... 21:08, 10 February 2007 (UTC

Neil Aspinall is also on its way. By the time they get around to reviewing it, I mean....C'mon you whites (Leeds United - who are not feeling very well at the moment) 21:08, 10 February 2007 (UTC

World War II and Macca

This article (World War II) looks like it will fail its FA, but NOBODY has mentioned the 17,131 words it has. I refer you to the Macca article that has 9,500. Bugger. andreasegde 16:32, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Sgt. Pepper Infobox

It looks like the songs on Sgt. Pepper have an old-style infobox. While editing "Fixing a Hole", I changed that song to mimic the infobox for the Revolver songs such as "Doctor Robert". Before I change the others, what do people think? Is there a reason why the Pepper infoboxes are different? John Cardinal 23:38, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

So much to do, so little time to do it? If you fancy trawling through the songs per album category, then it is your decision which style to use. If you are aware of any non-Beatles song/album articles, check what style they are using. It is best to be consistent. LessHeard vanU 13:41, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

New editors on the block

(I don't mean chopping block.) I think we should go so far as to be over-friendly to them. I know we're all jaded hacks with smart one-liners up our sleeves - :)) but they're keen to help and should be encouraged. Now tell me to get lost. Mr Oh-so-bleedin' friendly. 16:28, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

The beat-less 'article'

So, it's now the Beatles, is it? Every mention of The Band should be changed (in the middle of a sentence) to the Band. "At the gig, Bob Dylan and the Band.... which means his 'backing band', and not The Band. Explanation:

• "I saw the Band tonight."
• "Which band?"
• "The Band!"

• "I watched the beetles tonight."
• In your kitchen again?"
• No, The Beatles!

It's a question of emphasis... andreasegde 17:42, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Now that is spot on! It's also irrefutable! bob Dylan & the Band

• I could go on (and I will):
• "I watched Buddy Holly and the Crickets on video tonight."
• "What? Buddy Holly and a bunch of small, irritating insects?"
• No! Buddy Holly and The Crickets!

There is a difference between the collective names of animals/insects and the name of a band. It is called "The definite article". andreasegde 21:04, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

... I pronounce the, The and occasionally tHe pretty much the same. The emphasis is in the inflection. I am getting slightly tired of 1.) requesting a defination from a published source, 2.) noting that I was requesting comments both at the relevant talk page and in the recent newsletters, and 3.) my preferred version is with a capital T but I follow Wikipedia procedures and the consensus of the debate, and the only examples provided, were for use of lowercase.

Time to put up or shut up, folks. Find an appropriate authority or another topic. Whatever. LessHeard vanU 22:46, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Trivia - what trivia?

Hi guys, just wondering if anybody had seen my post on Ringo's talk page; does anybody have any more Ringo trivia or anything it could link to? At the moment there's the rather uninteresting: Ringo Starr is briefly mentioned in the Season 8 Full House episode, "We Got the Beat." Any more for any more? Liamshaw 22:00, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

There's a lot of stuff listed there under "Recent years" and "Other information" which covers similar material. Maybe some sort of reoganization? Freshacconci 22:09, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Good thinking - I'm planning to move "Other information" into "Trivia" - they seem pretty compatible. Liamshaw 22:22, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

It is done. It will need more extensive editing, but, *yawn*, I'm off to bed. Nighty night. Liamshaw 22:31, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Please note that there editors who dislike the use of the term trivia, owing to the crufty info often found there. If it is good notable stuff that has no other place to go then fine, but Other information is as good a title.

ps. I have answered and actioned over at Ringo's article. Goodnight.LessHeard vanU 22:34, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I am not 100% again the word "Trivia", but I understand some of the resistance to it and I'd suggest moving information out of Trivia and into other sections with more informative titles, if possible, rather than t'other way 'round. John Cardinal 23:42, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I see your point. However, should there be a general consensus as to the consistency of the word "Trivia" in articles concerning The Beatles? Here is a run-down of the members of the Beatles and their status concerning trivia:

• John Lennon - has "Trivia" which links to "John Lennon Trivia" and "The Beatles Trivia" (no actual information in the section apart from these links)
• Paul McCartney - no "Trivia" section
• George Harrison - no "Trivia" section
• Ringo Starr - has "Trivia" section

I think we should either go one way or the other - personally, I'm not opposed to "Trivia", but understand the reasons, so would not be opposed to its replacement with other word(s). Liamshaw 16:04, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

The Beatles Trivia has been retitled The Beatles' miscellanea. This alternative word may be an appropriate substitute. LessHeard vanU 16:12, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I shall do so to the articles which contain "Trivia", if that's OK. Liamshaw 19:23, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

A piece of advice: Stay as far away from the word trivia as you can, or the heavens will open and the anti-trivia zealots will come knocking on your door. It makes them mad, bad, and angry. (This is from past experience, BTW.) andreasegde 20:52, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Stay away from it literally? So just whenever I happen to say the word

trivia

I keep away from it for good? Does just the mention of it bring the zealots to the door, like hungry wolves, snarling and baring their vicious pointy teeth, seeking vengeance for the wrongs against... *sigh* Okey dokey. Got it. Don't mention the 't' word. the person who did not say the 't' word ever ever ever 21:09, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

"A Day In the Life: An Interpretation" by W.P. Norton

Death and time lay men and nations low, but life, though short, can have brief meaning, through drugs and intense human relationships, including of a sexual nature. Such is this writer's subjective interpretation of “A Day In the Life,” based on the following line-by-line analysis.

I read the news today, oh, boy. An anonymous narrator seeks information about the world outside his own life. He reads a newspaper, a chronicle of the undifferentiated, relentless march of human events. “Oh, boy” is a euphemism for “Oh, God” — an exclamation of surprise, fear, powerlessness in the face of reality. In the vein of the bromide that declares that mediocre minds discuss people, average minds discuss events, and great minds discuss ideas, the narrator is seeking information through the media beyond that which is available in the course of ordinary, narcissistic personal experience.

About a lucky man who made the grade. Our narrator overlays irony over this line. The individual has been blessed by fortune, in the sense that he has “made the grade” — achieved material or worldly success. On a deeper level, one who dies because of inattention in a traffic accident is the opposite of “lucky.” He is in fact cursed, doomed — a victim of the fate that claims us all in the end. This sarcasm expresses uneasiness about the transitory nature of temporal human ambitions.

And though the news was rather sad, well I just had to laugh; I saw the photograph. He blew his mind out in a car; he didn’t notice that the lights had changed. The narrator, while acknowledging the tragedy of the accident, reflexively, automatically (“had to”) employs sarcasm as a defense mechanism against the awful reality: death is a fate that spares no-one. “Blow your brains out”: to commit suicide with a firearm. “Blew his mind out” substitutes “mind” for “brain,” indicating fatal head injury in an accident that is suicidal in the sense that the driver caused his own demise, if not with intent then certainly with the same outcome. “Blow your mind”: to be amazed, to be stunned by new awareness or insight by information coming from outside the boundaries of familiar experience. And death is certainly the ultimate alien experience — the one true “alienation” experienced universally. All of which is suggestive of the fact that we live in utter ignorance of the nature of death, the ultimate truth which defines our lives by virtue of being the opposite of life. Not noticing that the traffic signal had changed describes one running a stoplight and dying in a collision: a mundane, relatively meaningless demise suffered by many. Meaningless, because death results from so small an action as being distracted for a moment while behind the wheel.

A crowd of people stood and stared; they’d seen his face before. Nobody was really sure if he was from the House of Lords. The anonymous crowd is gripped by impolite, morbid curiosity; the vicarious thrill derived from viewing death first-hand — from the knowledge that someone has died, but not me: I am still alive. Of course, death is the most important fact, and ultimately the defining reality, of human experience. However, the nature of that experience cannot be accessed second-hand. The anonymous, gaping street crowd degrades the significance of this event, reducing what should be a moment of solemnity to an opportunity to access cheap thrills. This member of the House of Lords — a British political institution of long tradition — has political power and inherited wealth. Such an individual might be known to average people through glimpses in the media, but these people would have no occasion to be personally acquainted with him: to the mass of people on the street, he is no more recognizable than a face on a television screen or in a newspaper photograph — an abstraction, representing a distant, governing elite. This individual is separated — alienated — from the rest of us by his power and privilege. However, the commonness of his death proves that his privileged status is an illusion.

I saw a film today, Oh, boy. The English Army had just won the war. A crowd of people turned away. But I just had to look, having read the book. The anonymous narrator, continuing to seek information about the wider world, is again struck by his insignificance, as signified by his invocation of the euphemism for the religious exclamation “Oh, God.” Again discarding the oblique mechanisms of symbolic allusion, the narrator references a historical event in which the armed forces of a named country — the United Kingdom — is victorious in an unnamed war. The unspecified triumph of British arms in war symbolizes Britain’s temporal greatness or significance. But in the same way that individual achievement fades into the past, the greatness of the English nation has become a matter of history — whether fictional or documentarized, we are not told, and it does not matter: this is merely a “film.” The point being made is that this unspecified British victory is an irrelevancy from which the anonymous audience of moviegoers literally turns away. Standing in contrast (more likely, sitting) is our protagonist, whose desire to acquire knowledge finds special expression in the act of viewing a film regarding a subject in which he is interested enough to have not only read a book about it, but to have then sought additional information on this specific topic. However, the majority does not share the narrator’s interest. By implication, the meaningless death of one man in a car accident today is more interesting to society than a monumental achievement of the storied, historic English army. What this describes is a society severed from any connection to its past.

I’d love to turn you on. “To turn on” is of course a double entendre, meaning either “to excite sexually” or “to provide access to drugs or to a drug experience.” In the face of these events, the narrator is declaring that access to a deeper, more-meaningful level of existence — or even mere diversion from these melancholic facts — is available by means of intense, shared interpersonal experiences, including sexual relationships, mind-altering drugs, or both.

Woke up, fell out of bed, dragged a comb across my head. Waking up is the first action any individual must make in a given day — an action that is in a sense involuntary and paradoxical, in that the act of waking up is automatic, requiring no free will. The need to rise from sleep is inevitable, a rigid fact of existence, like the cycles of nature, and therefore inescapable. In a way, it is its own negation of free will — or birth by another name. Falling out of bed evokes the experience of falling, of being an object of gravity, a prisoner of the natural laws and forces that govern all existence. It is one of the first things we learn after being born: you can fall down. Combing one’s hair symbolizes all that is cosmetic in the putting on of our public face, in choosing how to present ourselves to society. Thus is a kind of pilgrim’s progress described: We are born. We learn how the world works. We decide what we want others to know about us.

Found my way downstairs and drank a cup. And looking up, I noticed I was late. Moving through life, we “find our way” by trial and error; we acquire sad knowledge of the baser requisites to be fulfilled in the construction of our foundation. We grow sadder and wiser — a process which that seems to satisfy a human need no less elemental than that of thirst slaked by the raising of a drink to the lips. The universality of such an experience drives a further sense of inevitability, of being captive to the larger forces of gravity, the need for food and water, the inexorability of time.

Found my coat and grabbed my hat, made the bus in seconds flat. We further refine our public posture in our choice of defensive garments. And we do so in haste, with the sense of urgency derived from our knowledge that we are running against time.

Made my way upstairs and had a smoke. And somebody spoke and I went into a dream. We have arrived at a destination. Though our trip on the bus is over, we’re still on a trip, in the sense that we’re not at home. And though anywhere other than home is at least to some degree, and by definition, alien — alienated — at least we are familiar with the terrain: we can go upstairs. And though we may still be isolated, we are at least no longer alone. We know this, because we hear the voice of an anonymous party. Thus is the possibility for the transcendence of isolation made available, by means of communication with another human being. However, we decline this opportunity in favor of the ultimate introverted act: retreat into the internal, dreamlike, surreal, irrational, non-linear mental state made created by drugs. Thus, although we have opted out of an opportunity for interpersonal contact, we have shifted our consciousness away from the strictures of reality and toward the freedom of a dreamlike, drug-induced state.

I read the news today, oh, boy. Four thousand holes in Blackburn, Lancashire. And though the holes were rather small, they had to count them all. Now they know how many holes it takes to fill the Albert Hall. I’d love to turn you on. The theme of individual powerlessness and insignificance against the backdrop of the relentlessly and endlessly unfolding human drama is repeated. Initially, the relevance of the quantity of holes is unkown to us, because the context is known only to the protagonist. But if you can’t know what the holes are, you can know that they were counted in a specific place whose importance the narrator signals by naming the city and county. The holes could be anything: a symbolic stand-in for the march of ephemeral concerns that constitute the bulk of human existence in every locality. More likely, their meaning is literal, for holes are indeed empty, devoid of meaning. The identity of the unnamed “they” whose duty it was to count the holes is a matter of speculation. Call them census-takers, tax collectors, assessors. Whatever the moniker, their role is the same — that of faceless, anonymous “experts.” Anointed by the Establishment, these experts enumerate those facets of reality deemed by that same Establishment to be relevant to the society. Only after this act of counting — literally, of determining “what counts” — can come the dictation of the societal priorities flowing therefrom. The anonymity of those doing the counting symbolizes the essentially alien nature of the means by which government rules. This reinforces our narrator’s concern with the theme of alienation — the alienation of the successful politician from the fundamental truth of his mortality; the alienation of the street crowd from the governing elite; the alienation of the moviegoers from their nation’s history; and the alienation of so-called experts from the daily concerns of laypeople. The experts announce an absurd finding: 4,000 holes will fit in the Albert Hall. This result underscores the distinction between meaningless information, which is everywhere but of no use to anybody, and meaningful knowledge, which is elusive. The reference to the Albert Hall is an English place-name familiar to very few outside England. The idea here is that if you recognize the reference to the Albert Hall, you will experience the minor thrill of recognition — and the fleeting satisfaction that comes from feeling that you can construct meaning within the context of random and terrifying events by means of language: the power to superimpose order onto chaos simply by giving things a name. Even if you don’t recognize the reference to the Albert Hall, you still recognize the absurdity of counting the holes in Blackburn. Significantly, the Albert Hall is a place where famous performers ply their craft. An allusion, we may conclude, to the meaninglessness of fame — the emptiness in the soul modern celebrity. It was a void the Beatles themselves spoke of after they had reached their peak. And the narrator sends, for the second time, the dually desirous proposition to provide the anonymous “you” with an opportunity to replace mental alienation and emotional emptiness — to fill these twin voids at the center of the modern soul — with the twin towers of a mind-altering drug experience and an interpersonal relationship, the latter being sexual in its intensity if not in its expression.

It’s one song, but there are crucial difference between the two narrators. Narrator No. 1 seeks to understand reality; he wants to know about the news, he’s interested in history; he ponders the nature of societal forces; alludes to the absurdities that underlie conventional wisdom; clothes his comments in ironic sarcasm. Whereas No. 2 accepts his immediate reality without a second thought; makes no comment about the world beyond the boundaries of his narcissistic concerns about grooming, hairstyle, clothes. He knows time outruns us all, but doesn’t seem to care a whit about that fact. In another key contrast, No. 2 rejects human contact in favor of drug-induced inner space, while No. 1 invites the anonymous “you” to experience, along with him, a chemical- or sex-induced alteration of consciousness. In essence, No. 1 stands outside society. He analyzes, judges, constructs an edifice of emotional self-defense. And yet, despite his isolation, it is he who seeks alliance with another person. Indeed, his most meaningful action is to invite someone to share with him in the pursuit of transcendence through drugs and intense relationships. Whereas No. 2 accepts reality implicitly, tailors for himself a stylish suit of armor, and rejects a relationship in favor of introversion.

What is the takeaway here? First, that we modern men and women are alienated: from each other, from the Establishment, even from our own history. This latter fact is one of the things that makes us modern. And that which we value most — fame, success, power and money — are but fleeting unrealities trumped by death and the passage of time. Our humor may provide defense against the terror arising from these melancholic facts. But solace can be achieved, if only temporarily, by raising our consciousness to different levels, whether through intense relationships or chemical substances.

A final word about authorial intent: Many of you know that Lennon based the lyrics for this piece on a several newspaper articles, including one about potholes. Many of you will no doubt set me straight by quoting the relevant scholarship. No doubt I will be cautioned against the sins of reading too much into the text. My response is the following: All art gets its start in the mundane, ephemeral facts of human experience. Small-minded insistence upon restricting to the terms of that ephemera any effort to interpret a text, painting or other work is a denial of art's power to transcend the quotidian realities above which all artistic minds strive to reach.

W.P. Norton 20:48, 14 February 2007 (UTC)W.P. Norton

Um, thanks? Freshacconci 21:06, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

To new editors: If you ever want a perfect example of what POV is, you have just read it. W.P. Norton doesn't even credit Lennon, but refers to him as "the narrator". As has oft been quoted, Dr. Winston O'Boogie wrote the lyrics after reading a newspaper. 'Nuff said? andreasegde 21:05, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Most enlightening. *stifled yet audible giggles*. Liamshaw 21:16, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Rock On Tommy! Bobby Ball

Oh... I understood that Lennon was referring to the recent death of one of the Guinness family, part of the London Set in the first stanza. As for "I saw a film today..."; Lennon was a actor in a British film called "How I Won The War", starring Michael Crawford (I think the director may have been Richard Lester). As mentioned, Lennons lyrics are from a newspaper he was reading. The bit about getting up and combing his hair is, I believe, McCartneys words. Of course this is all from memory and unassisted by a degree in trick cycling. LessHeard vanU 13:48, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Trademark

Put up or shut up?

This document is irrefutable proof (even though the writer uses "the Beatles" title): An auction for the document used to register the name "The Beatles" back in 1964 Game, Set, and Match. andreasegde 21:54, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Is there a battle about this? If so, where? John Cardinal 00:17, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

This is wearing me out. You have given us "irrefutable proof" that the Beatles and their lawyers like capitalizing the article, not any evidence of what any language authorities think.McTavidge 03:19, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I must agree with McTavidge. It seems that the (non-trademark lawyer) authoraties line up well with a lower case "the".

Additionally, an earlier suggestion that "The" be capitalized to show emphasis is completely absurd given the existance of a typographical style developed specifically for that case: italics.

The concept that since "Coca-Cola" is capitalized, "the" in the bands name should be as well seems to be missing out on "the" as an article.

Them be's my thoughts.

"The" isn't part of the Rolling Stones Trademark. Vera, Chuck & Dave 14:41, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Both "Beatles" and "The Beatles" are registered trade marks of Apple Corps Ltd. The British Patent Office link to "The Beatles" trade mark is at [2] Steelbeard1 16:11, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Steelbeard1, for "The British Patent Office link to The Beatles trademark." andreasegde 17:10, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you indeed and here's an example of it's correct written usage:[3] Vera, Chuck & Dave 18:00, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

This "The/the Beatles" problem is typical of Wikipedia. All a problem needs is strong citations and then we can all go home. If you want to go to court about it, contact Apple Corps and set a date, and take your piggy bank with you. andreasegde 18:18, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

GA

Mimi Smith, Julia Lennon, Freddie Lennon, and Neil Aspinall are now all GA. Now, let's see... Brian Epstein, or Mal Evans? Here go, here we go, here we go... 17:10, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Marvellous - no reaction. Hello, hello, hello....... 17:10, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Eh? I think that's good news, right? Worthy of the newsletter? ++Lar: t/c 16:50, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, maybe a line about how the status board is looking at the moment. It makes me feel good to look at it once in awhile. andreasegde 22:00, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Policy

I suggest that editors look at the 'Policy - talk' section [4] to voice their opinions. Democratic (and legal) are my favourite words (and I don't mean political parties in the USA, BTW.) andreasegde 15:03, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Us

This is not a project - it is a collection of dedicated people who love what we do. We have more fun than a bishop in a brothel, and we have a wonderful working-friendship with each other. This should never be broken. Tell me I'm wrong, and I will slap you with a wet fish. Mr. Oh-so-'effin friendly 15:03, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

The The

I found a great example. There was a band in the 80s called The The. Now, what do we do with that, I ask? andreasegde 23:42, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

There was also The The The The Stutterers. Really. Raymond Arritt 16:23, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Raymond. A bit of humour in all this is very welcome. :) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Andreasegde (talk • contribs) 16:26, 20 February 2007 (UTC).

What about the hybrid Geordie/Lancs band Th'Thee? LessHeard vanU 20:58, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

All We Are Saying Index

Frustrated by trying to find information in All We Are Saying by David Sheff, I decided to make an index:

• Index to David Sheff's All We Are Saying"", a 1980 interview with John Lennon and Yoko Ono.

Perhaps other Lennon/Beatle editors will find it useful. John Cardinal 03:09, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

If they can tear themselves away from arguing about the/The, that is. :-) John Cardinal 03:15, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Comprehensive! Do you want to make internal Wikilinks in the Lennon article, and relevant songs, to the index? It's up to you, but you could always create a All We Are Saying stub article (with Beatles templates, etc.) and make the index a sub-page. Be wary of copy-vio, of course! LessHeard vanU 12:28, 17 February 2007 (UTC) ps. If there's anything in the book worth a bit of a ding dong about, you will let us know, won'cha? ;~)

Thank you. I think it's best for articles to cite the book in the usual way. The index is a finding aid, and if an editor uses it to find something in the book the editor would cite the page they read to support the assertion made in the article.

I am not against moving the index under the article for a short or stub article about the book, but someone with more knowledge of Wikipedia policies would have to comment on that.

I don't think there is a copyright issue. While there is a lot in the index, little of it appears in the book itself. I didn't take the book's index and add to it, for example, (it has no index), and most of the index terms are names of people or general concepts ("Marxism") that aren't subject to copyright. John Cardinal 13:08, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I skipped over most of the content the first time. I now agree there is no content that could be copyright violation. I retract that statement. I will see if the friendly project Admin would care to clear it for Wikipedia. My only concern now is if it falls within original research, although you are simply noting where subjects are mentioned and not drawing any conclusion (other than it would have been nice to have had an index). I shall go ask. LessHeard vanU 13:38, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Of course, while we are waiting you could always go ahead and create an article for the book and then create the stub page. If there is anything untoward then someone will pick up on it. LessHeard vanU 12:47, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

The friendly admin advises (see User_Talk:Lar "Non Shouty..." discussion) that an index is too narrow for a Wiki article. I am seeing if it would be okay to link to your userpage from an article for the book. LessHeard vanU 22:55, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

OK. Thanks. I don't think a link from a main page to a user page will fly, and shouldn't, so the question is, where is an appropriate place for a link? John Cardinal 02:20, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Neither did the friendly admin. I'll simply copy over what he wrote, since I am not as familiar with articlespace and userspace as you seem to be (although I think I get the idea)

If this is an articlespace thing, we should not link from articlespace to a user subpage. We should link to some other place within article space (the "list"...) but in order for that list to survive a possible AfD we need to be able to establish relevance of the list to the article it's linked from as well as accuracy. If this is an index someone did by their own reading, it's original research and therefore not OK by our policies. Tricky wicket. now, on the other hand, if this is a resource that we would keep in the project or on an article TALK page, for use by editors to make articles better, then it's much less stringent about how AfD defensible it needs to be, as well as how non original research it needs to be. I'm confused which it is. If you think the original author isn't going to be miffed that wp policy says that we shouldn't have his list in article space by all means feel free to copy this whole thread over to there or whatever. That's what I was scared of, he's put a lot of work into it, and people just hate having their baby called ugly. :) Hope that makes sense, mate. And PS thanks for trying to work through the t/T thing... rather thankless, that, eh? Good work on helping keep things calm. ++Lar: t/c 23:20, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

If you want to discuss this with him then he is open to all friendly inquiries, although he does get a lot of requests so he may take some time, so just let him know that you are the other concerned editor. I hope this helps. LessHeard vanU 21:09, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Right. Hopefully this is all sorted but if you want more of my opinion please let me know. ++Lar: t/c 18:02, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I just left it in user space. John Cardinal 04:12, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Are you going to create an article stub for the book (as you have it, you can do it most easily) and mention in the article talkpage that you have an index? LessHeard vanU 15:24, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't planning to do that. I'm not against it, but I am not sure it's notable. What's the policy about that? I don't want to bother adding it and then discover its been deleted. If it gets one, then Many Years From Now, and Lennon Remembers and other books should probably get one, too. John Cardinal 15:49, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I guess you are the de facto judge on notability, as you have read it. Your call... LessHeard vanU 16:13, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Mal Evans

I am working on Mal, but it needs more about his schooling and birthplace. Anybody know anything? ThE bEaTLeS aka andreasegde 18:02, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Mal is now up for a GA. ThE bEaTLeS aka andreasegde 18:05, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Category:The Beatles EPs

Last year I noted that in the process of streamlining all entries in category:Albums by artist, we eliminated all "EPs" categories except the Beatles one, under the logic that all EPs are just short albums. Since it doesn't make sense for one band (even this one) to have a different categorization scheme, I've just nominated it for merging into category:The Beatles albums on Wikipedia:Categories for discussion, so feel free to weigh in there.--Mike Selinker 18:09, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Please Please Me

There's a "Summary" section in the Please Please Me album article that I don't think belong there for various reasons. I asked for comments on Talk:Please Please Me, but so far only the author of that section has replied. Can some other editors chime in and help us decide what to do—if anything—with it? Enta Da Stage is a featured article, but Please Please Me isn't. We should correct that. IMO the "Summary" section is a barrier to GA or FA; it's a B as of the last rating. John Cardinal 04:10, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

GA—which is a short step from a B-article

Sometimes I treat myself by having a look at this:The Beatles' Status Board. What it says it that "the powers that be" do absolutely 'eff all (if you look at the history) but blab on and on about contributions and tHE style. They hate the idea of getting their sleeves dirty—because they definitely don't want to—as their exalted positions would then become redundant. I'll bet that they do not know what "elbow grease" means. (If they do, it is then even more embarrassing for them...) Every Beatles' article should be a GA. ThE bEaTLeS aka andreasegde 21:51, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Is the above a reaction to my Please Please Me comment above? If not, what are you talking about? (I must admit I don't understand a lot of the posts here and there by project members. I assume I'll catch on someday, but more context would help! John Cardinal 02:29, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

No, it's not at all. It's just a rant about the fact that looking at the status board shocks me. There are too many B articles, and I find that shocking, especially considering how long the pages have been there. Are we talking years, here? Yes we are, as John Lennon was started in 2002. ThE bEaTLeS aka andreasegde 10:39, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. I agree about GA. I've stayed away (mostly) from the high-priority articles because those articles are likely to deal with controversial material and I would rather wait until I've had more experience writing for an encyclopedia. I've been working on song and album articles, mostly, adding citations because they're needed and (at the moment, at least) I have a lot of the necessary source books. John Cardinal 18:18, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Who exactly are the powers that be? We're all volunteers here and we do what we choose to do when we can. --kingboyk 19:40, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

(Hi, Kingboyk). I refer to the statement that "It is still usually up to a smaller group of people who decide which arguments have carried the day"... (I am not referring to Admins here, or the original writer, but what is called "the consensus/policy"). I see no fairness in it at all. You say, "we do what we choose to do when we can", which is very agreeable, but our efforts/opinions are accepted or rejected by "a smaller group of people". Who are they? Why do they have so much power?

I totally understand the Nazi problem, when 50 tossers try to overrule a policy/idea/fact by voting (bad word that...) and can be successfully defeated by "a smaller group of people", but does that always apply? I am afraid that it looks like it does. It means that no matter what the general feeling is, it can be cast aside. This all relates to the/The Beatles problem, when nobody else in the whole of Wikipedia (apart from Beatles' editors) bothers about it at all. Five recent GA reviews (and one FA review) never mentioned it once - not once.

My point is that we should be concentrating on getting ALL of (...) Beatles to (at least) GA, and stop faffing about with accusations about vandalism whether someone writes The or the. The John Lennon article was started in 2002, and is a B article, BTW. I feel we are losing the plot here, and are not seeing the wood for the trees. I apologise for my rant, but this whole thing has made me ever-so-slightly miffed... (and that is the understatement of the year...) ThE bEaTLeS aka andreasegde 22:18, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh I see. Well I personally decided long ago to let others argue about the/The and just to abide with whatever the "policy" is at the end of it all. I frankly couldn't care less :) Let me tell you though as somebody who's been away and come back to see the work that's gone on, you've not been wasting your time in as much as some great work has happened (the Mimi article for a kickoff). Whether Wikipedia is a waste of time as an "encyclopedia" I couldn't tell you (although I suspect it is)... It's not just Beatles articles. Have a gander at some of the articles relating to Iron Maiden, if you can bear it... they are appalling. --kingboyk 22:55, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I thank you very much, Kingboyk, for giving me a good chuckle - I really needed it :) "Have a gander", "if you can bear it", and "appalling" are phrases/words that make me laugh a lot... :)) Thank you. I will now shut the 'eff up and do something worthwhile... ThE bEaTLeS aka andreasegde 23:34, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I have just looked at it. "A poor gig at the Bridgehouse in November 1977, with a makeshift line-up including Tony Moore on keyboards, Terry Wapram on guitar, and drummer Barry Purkis resulted in Harris firing the entire band". It sounds like Spinal Tap! :)) ThE bEaTLeS aka andreasegde 23:40, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I think Spinal Tap must have been based at least partly on Status Quo, given that they were the most prominent rock band to have started off as flower power rockers.... --kingboyk 15:48, 2 March 2007 (UTC) PS Anybody who wants to slag off the mighty Quo should see me outside! ;)

Saw a free Quo gig here on the Hauptplatz in Linz a few months ago. Felt strange listening to cockney accents in the middle of sausage land. ThE bEaTLeS aka andreasegde 06:05, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

re;

"our efforts/opinions are accepted or rejected by "a smaller group of people". Who are they? Why do they have so much power?"

Well, I assume they started as editors like everybody else and after a while accumulated sufficient knowledge of Wikipedia methods and practices that their opinions carried some weight in discussions about AfD, FAR/Cs and GAR. They pretty much appointed themselves by dint of their type of contribution, and mostly the majority of editors have come to accept their decisions as binding (oh, I guess that a few disgruntled objectors file complaints in the appropriate places when their opinion is overridden) which in turn gives them these powers - the Wikipedia community allows them the excercise of same.

When an editor reaches an impasse with another contributor an Admin (or just somebody with more experience sometimes) is asked to intervene, sometimes this referee gets a reputation as someone to talk to in resolving matters. The "small group" likely started like this, a few experienced editors (perhaps admins) who got a reputation for being prepared to rationalise the debating points being offered with reference to Wikipedia rules and policies and coming to a decision. As you will have noted, even they don't always agree what constitutes correct application.

In the end they were just editors like you and me (well, more like me - since I prefer the debate and administrative side than finding and citing references in text, my contributions to Project articles in the way of new information has always been pretty thin from the very start) who were prepared to make decisions on behalf of the Wikipedia Community. I would suggest it is a tough job, since most people will disagree with you at some stage, and not one that most people would take on; hence the small number.

Like the man said, we are all volunteers here - some find avenues that better suit their talents... or as was once written "some people are more equal than others"...

Whatever. LessHeard vanU 22:36, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

So they are self-elected, and there is a hierarchy:

"Hierarchies denote a singular/group of power at the top, a number of assistants underneath and hundreds of servants beneath them."

Nobody is allowed to vote to reach a consensus and the minority rules. Does Mr. Wales know about this? If he does, then does he approve? I can't think of a worse position to be in. We are volunteers that are dictated to (and I don't use that word lightly) by a self-elected board of governors. Bloody hell, I'm gobsmacked...

Thanks for your reply BTW, LessHeard vanU. ThE bEaTLeS aka andreasegde 18:50, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

(Engaging political pomposity mode, Mr Rimmer) Of course you 'can't vote on a consensus debate; voting specifically implies a split between yes and no, right and wrong, black (or red or yellow) and blue, with a simple majority overriding the wishes of the minority; be they ever so small or large. Consensus is what happens in Oxford and Cambridge debates, the strength of the arguments is considered and that which appears strongest (even without the greatest number of adherents) is declared the winner by both opponents and proponents. (disengaging political pomposity mode).

So the cadre that makes the decisions on Wikipedia considers the arguments and declaims from upon high which side most closely reflects the ethos, principles, and whatnot that Wikipedia represents. That they are few is most likely because few other people want the job (the work, not the power) and because they have been around WP for some time and few can match their experience. That isn't to say they get everything right, or that they agree with each other all of the time, but that their stewardship of WP has been regarded as beneficial. At worst it is a benign dictatorship. LessHeard vanU 22:15, 6 March 2007 (UTC) (ps. This is only my perception of the state of affairs - it could be hideously wrong!)

What's all this then?

There's no "heirarchy" here at WP:TB. No "powers that be". We'll have none of that, thank you very much.

There's only a bunch of people interested in The (thE) Beatles and in Wikipedia. Some are casual fans, some are grammarians, some are lunatics for whom the clock stopped in September 1969 (who, me?) but none are better or worse, or have more or less authority than others. Sometimes they disagree, as humans tend to do. Sometimes they even squabble over silly things, as humans tend to do. In the end you get up, dust off, shake hands and move on.

Rembember - Every Beatles article should be a GA. Sermon over. Back to work, lads. Raymond Arritt 22:52, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Mal Evans

Mal Evans has graciously been allowed to join the Good Article ranks of his fellow friends and family connected with that Liverpool band. That should make up for the royalties he never received (not)...

Evans wrote on 1 February 1967: "Sergeant Pepper sounds good. Paul tells me that I will get royalties on the song — great news, now perhaps a new home." He hoped to get royalties but instead had to make do with £38-a-week pay. Bugger. ThE bEaTLeS aka andreasegde 14:55, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Where's that quote from then? Did he help write the song (or something else on the album)? --kingboyk 23:04, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Read Mal Evans, and all will be revealed... ThE bEaTLeS aka andreasegde 16:30, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Ah. Poor sod :( That sucks. They could have printed Lennon/McCartney whilst still paying Mal his royalty couldn't they?! Personally, I think Lennon/McCartney/Evans sounds fine anyway. Down with egotistical cashed up rock stars!!! --kingboyk 16:45, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Too true. The more I read about that band from Liverpool, the more I am beginning to like them, and loathe them (Lennon, for giving money away to friends, but also being a [expletive deleted] and Macca, for being extremely nice, and a total [expletive deleted].) Great music though... ThE bEaTLeS aka andreasegde 17:34, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Let's not get carried away with "Mal Evans, songwriter". He may have contributed lyrics, but given McCartney had to nod at him to control the duration of a single organ note, it's unlikely he was a musician in any true sense of the word. Watch him in Let It Be. He has trouble banging Maxwell's hammer at the right times. How he got usable sound out of a saxophone—if he did—is beyond me. My point is, his diary and/or the mysterious tape are both his POV of what went on. They may be right or wrong from someone else's point of view, and even if right, he may not have deserved a writing credit. Could the Beatles have given him more cash? Sure, I can't put his pay in context. He was a road manager, and that's not a lucrative position. John Cardinal 02:11, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

If you add a single sentence to a song, you deserve a credit. They had enough dosh to splash around, after all. Pete Shotton got a supermarket, and he was just a mate. ThE bEaTLeS aka andreasegde 12:11, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Brian Epstein

I seem to be running into some flak on Brian Epstein's page. In-line citations (I thank thee kindly Kingboyk) seem to be the problem, as the editors there like POV/unreferenced sources. andreasegde 22:17, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Arbitration

There is a serious problem on the Brian Epstein page that needs to be looked at by other editors. I politely request other editors to take a look at the article and the talk page to decide whether the article is defamatory to Epstein, and whether there is too much in it about his sexuality. andreasegde 18:14, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I thank the editors that replied very much for their contributions. The next round's on me... andreasegde 19:26, 13 March 2007 (UTC)