Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Saints/Archive4

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[edit] Joan of Arc

The following discussions are an archived debate. Please do not modify it.

[edit] Joan of Arc: Featured Article

Joan of Arc is the featured article of the day, I think this is important since we helped out on her page. Hailey C. Shannon 19:30, 15 April 2006

[edit] Joan of Arc

I would like to express respectfully that I am confused by her mid-importance rating. Could someone explain the designation? I see the following on the assessment scale definitions:

  • Mid-importance - Subject contributes to the total subject of the Saints WikiProject. Subject may not necessarily be famous. (my emphasis)
  • Top-importance - Subject is a "core" or "key" topic for Saints, or is generally notable to people other than students of Saints. They define and determine the subject of the Saints WikiProject. (my emphasis)

Perhaps her rating is low because she did not contribute to theological writings or because she was canonized in the twentieth century? Catholic.org reports her as their most requested saint profile.[1] I mean this not as a complaint but as an inquiry: Wikiproject Biography rated her as a top importance subject and I'd like to understand your priorities. Best wishes, Durova 03:41, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Joan of Arc is up for a featured article review. Detailed concerns may be found here. Please leave your comments and help us address and maintain this article's featured quality. Sandy 23:02, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Saint Bernadette Soubirous

I think you better check into, some of the edits on Bernadette Soubirous, like the claims she was a vampire,etc, (unsigned User:Hailey C. Shannon)

I have been looking at it. Dominick (TALK) 11:53, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
The following discussions are an archived debate. Please do not modify it.

[edit] Archangel Uriel

On the Uriel (archangel) page, the following statement is made: "Of seven archangels in the angelology of post-Exilic Judaism, only three, Gabriel, Michael and Raphael, are mentioned by name in the scriptures that gradually became accepted as canonical." The author fails to mention which canon s/he is referring to. In the Protestant Canon, Raphael is nowhere mentioned. However, in 2 Esdras, which is part of the Russian and Ethiopian Orthodox Church, Uriel is mentioned. Clarification on this matter would be appreciated. 12:32, 26 May 2006 (UTC)User:Drumpler)

The statement is literally true, however. Esdras was part of the scriptures that were accepted as canon by the various councils. They were later put in a special category of apocrypha, and the statement doesn't really mean "you can find it in your Bible" as much as "it was canonical." Clarification won't hurt anything, of course. Geogre 02:27, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
The following discussions are an archived debate. Please do not modify it.

[edit] Saint Peter of Rates

Hi! We are having a small discussion on the article Saint Peter of Rates (discussion) about whether the article title should be Saint Peter of Rates or just Peter of Rates. We can't seem to find a solution. Can anyone help? Thanks. Joaopais 23:49, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

The following discussions are an archived debate. Please do not modify it.

[edit] Saint Benedict of Handbag

Image:Labre.jpg
A representation of the sorrowful mendicant, Benedict Joseph Labre.

Is this icon for real? He looks like he's a transvestite wearing a mac, with elbow patches, and handbags, and breasts (under the coat). The pink halo doesnt help either. Supposedly (saint) Benedict Joseph Labre dates from 1780-something, is this icon some kind of joke or just a bizarre fluke? Clinkophonist 21:41, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

A joke? Excuse me, but did you read the article? He's carrying his bag, and if it doesn't look manly enough to you, I welcome finding a more butch portrait of the starving mendicant saint you can find. As for the color of the nimbus, he's a saint, not a divine. He doesn't get a golden nimbus. The man starved himself to death, giving away any alms people gave him, and if the image doesn't inspire devotion, I again welcome you to find a more Rambo-esque one. Geogre 02:19, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Also, he was dedicated to the crown of thorns, in particular, so a pink nimbus makes sense. Also, although I didn't put this in my article, he was considered insane by his family, or at least close enough to insane that the various orders rejected him, and the painter might have been indicating that. However, it's not up to us to go criticizing 18th century fashion accessories or iconography. Geogre 02:28, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
The man may have starved himself to death, but that doesn't explain why he is wearing a 20th century woman's coat with arm patches, appears to have breasts, and has a handbag. Clinkophonist 14:57, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
He's not. Those are crosses. He doesn't. He doesn't. It's an overcoat (we may or may not have an article on India coat, but his is an Italian overcoat). That's embroidery (say...men in the English renaissance wore high heels!). Your monitor glass must have a distortion, and that is a shoulder bag. Men today carry "messenger bags" and shoulder bags. I really don't know what you're seeing, but the image I see is perfectly consonant with 18th century poverty dress. Geogre 04:35, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Do they really have all these rules about the color of the nimbus? TCC (talk) (contribs) 06:00, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Rules would be too much. They're painterly styles, but I would imagine that, if the depiction were prior to canonization, which took 50 years or more, the artist would have wanted to avoid any disrespect and avoided the traditional halo. I don't think that there is any actual codification, but there was an informal tradition of reserving the golden halo, the white halo, and the blue nimbus for specific cases, as there was a sort of language in Western iconography. I wish I knew more about the precise provenance of the image. Geogre 14:04, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
The problem really is that it makes me think of nothing if not Dot Cotton on hormone therapy gone wrong. Clinkophonist 00:21, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
The following discussions are an archived debate. Please do not modify it.

[edit] Collaborations

The article Paul of Tarsus was nominated for GA. I have been doing the review and failed the article. This article is in need of a collaborative effort as the issues i'm noting on its talk page shouldn't be the burden of one or two individuals. Gnangarra 14:09, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Does he count as a Saint? Wouldn't he be an apostle, and fall under WikiProject Apostles or something? Or to put what I'm saying another way, shouldn't we be trying to work on the obscure Saints rather than the famous ones that get hundreds of edits a day even without our intervention. Clinkophonist 00:23, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Hehe.. the new news .. st paul isn't a saint!!! who said so Maltesedog 21:01, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
The following discussions are an archived debate. Please do not modify it.

[edit] Maltese Blesseds

I plan to write out fully-pledged articles for the all the Maltese Blesseds in the following weeks. These will include those beatified in 2001:

spellings in Italian [Maltese]. links are to the Italian biographies by the Vatican.

I would also like to include any other ones. I remember there was a sister who was beatified long ago but I cannot remember the name nor find her icon. I already have onboard a number of other Maltese editors who will contribute. I would like to ask anyone interested in helping in this coordinated effort to drop me a message on my Talk page. └ VodkaJazz / talk ┐ 17:43, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Have you seen this page Floriana#Religion? I would suggest using their English names, as is the practice of the church.

Pope John Paul II spoke at Publius Square during his two visits to Malta, and on his second visit held the beatification ceremony there for three Maltese: [1]

The following discussions are an archived debate. Please do not modify it.

[edit] The Beheading of Saint John the Baptist

Is there an article for this feast? I have not found one on Wikipedia, because it is on multiple calendars and seems like an important date. If there is one could you refer it to me for the Calendar of Saints (Lutheran) page, and others. Thank you, --Josh777 03:04, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

The following discussions are an archived debate. Please do not modify it.

[edit] Page move

Could an admin move Hippolytus (writer) to Hippolytus of Rome? The parentheses are unneccessary.--Cúchullain t/c 00:21, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

  • Sounds like a good idea. --evrik 15:42, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
The following discussions are an archived debate. Please do not modify it.

[edit] Rating for St Leopold Bogdan Mandic

The Article, Leopold Mandić, has been extensively expanded (by myself) and i believe it is definately not a stub. We need to give it a new rating. Catalyst in Society (talk) 00:43, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

  • Okay. --evrik 15:05, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Sebastian

There are some serious homoerotic problems with St. Sebastian. A gay section has been edited by me to clean it up, but it would be better to source it, and remove the rumor and innuendo. Dominick (TALK) 12:18, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Noted. --evrik 14:27, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
The following discussions are an archived debate. Please do not modify it.

[edit] Pelagius of Cordova

User:Haiduc insists on inserting allegations of pederastic rape. --evrik 01:01, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

The following discussions are an archived debate. Please do not modify it.

[edit] Dominic Savio

I suspect someone should check over Dominic Savio for accuracy. Were fake hall passes really a problem in Italian ecclesiastical schools over 150 years ago? --Scott Davis Talk 12:26, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

It might help to know that that info was put in by the user who started the article, and that said user is currently blocked indefinitely (for what, I don't know)... -- SigPig \SEND - OVER 13:24, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
  • huh? The article was started by an on user ... wasn't it? --evrik (talk) 15:24, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Are you referring to Encyclopedist or one of his socks? I don't know if he was the anon who started the article, but he is blocked. At any rate The line has been there since the article was created, but it does sound like a joke. Does anything similar appear in the sources about the saint?--Cúchullain t/c 19:10, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
The same text appears in Don Bosco Technical Institute, Tarlac and was also pasted in by an anon editor, but not obviously associated with Encyclopedist. --Scott Davis Talk 01:06, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
The following discussions are an archived debate. Please do not modify it.

[edit] Category:Turkish saints up for deletion

Someone has nominated Category:Turkish saints for deletion at WP:CFD. I object strongly to this, as it is consistant with the other categories in Category:Saints by country. Please contribute your thoughts.--Cúchullain t/c 23:31, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

The category needs to be cleaned up first, and then we can see if what's left is worth keeping. At a casual glance, most of them predate the Turkish conquest of Anatolia and therefore weren't "Turkish" by any reasonable definition.
But it's a problematic category anyway. Does one include, for example, a New Martyr of the Turkish Yoke who considered himself Greek, spoke Greek, lived in what is now Greece, but was at the time Ottoman territory? TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:39, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
I know it's problematic, but there's really and truly no better way to do this. All the other country categories include both people from the modern country and from the territory that preceded it. As I brought up over there, it's consistant with the other country categories: "French saints" includes saints from Gaul; Canadian saints includes saints from before there was a Canada, etc. Annoyingly, "Turkish" has two definitions, both someone who is Turkish ethnically and someone who is from Turkey, be they Kurds, Jews, Greeks, etc. (by this definition, Yoke would in fact be Turkish). We really need a category for people from the area now called Turkey; the main cat Saints was choked with the likes of Saint Nicolas Basil the Great, and Margaret the Virgin. Additionally, there are a few strickly Turk-Turkish saints; I'm working on an article on Ahmed the Calligrapher. If anything, the category needs to be either kept and renamed, or kept and have most of the articles moved to a new cat with a new name.--Cúchullain t/c 00:05, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
See my comment on the CFD page. TCC (talk) (contribs) 00:10, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Saint Lawrence vandalism?

Could somebody take a look at Saint Lawrence. I know nothing about the subject, but some of the things stated in the Martyrdom section seem likely to be vandalism. -- RoySmith (talk) 20:36, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

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[edit] Marguerite Bourgeoys

I believe that this article is beyond stub status, (my opinion). It could use a good image of the lady in question if someone is interested. Happy edits! Stormbay 23:33, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I added the image and an infobox. Alekjds 03:31, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Théodore Guérin

I saw a video on CNN.com about a man's eyesight returning to him after praying to Saint Théodore Guérin. Then did a bit more research and added info about Théodore Guérin's miracles to the article for her. I'd appreciate it if someone could look over the info and see if it meshes stylistically to the way the saints articles are supposed to look. Thanks, from an agnostic who was raised Catholic, Dismas|(talk) 10:47, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

The following discussions are an archived debate. Please do not modify it.

[edit] Jesus nominated for Article Improvement Drive

I recently found that our article on Jesus is the first page that appears when anyone does a Google search of the subject. It is currently, regrettably, only at GA status. On that basis, I would request any individuals who might be interested in helping to bring this article up to FA status to indicate their support for the article being chosen as the AID article at Wikipedia:Article Creation and Improvement Drive#Jesus. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 18:04, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

The following discussions are an archived debate. Please do not modify it.

[edit] AfD debate on Indian saint Gopinath

Does this "silent saint" meet the notability expectations of this WikiProject?? Mereda 17:30, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

The following discussions are an archived debate. Please do not modify it.

[edit] Father Damien featured article review notice

Father Damien (Having been beatified in 1995, Father Damien is awaiting formal approval for sainthood.) has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. –Outriggr § 01:11, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

The following discussions are an archived debate. Please do not modify it.

[edit] PROD on Saint Achillius

Article is a stub. PROD rationale amounts to no evidence that this individual is a notable saint. Original contributor notified, but hasn't contributed for months. Any sourcing would probably satisfy the prodder. As is, I'd tend to endorse as prod2, but you all might want to salvage. GRBerry 15:30, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

The following discussions are an archived debate. Please do not modify it.

[edit] Maximus the Confessor

This article hs recently undergone a major rewrite/revision, and I could use for others to take a look at it and make suggestion or provide a rating of the article. Especially (though not exclusively) anyone with a background in Eastern Christianity. Thanks. -- Pastordavid 00:37, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

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[edit] Jean-Olivier Briand / Joseph Olivier Briand

Could someone check my entry at Wikipedia talk:Catholic Encyclopedia cat Bishop regarding Jean-Olivier Briand? Thanks! Stormbay 22:06, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

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[edit] Queer Reading of John the Apostle

The above referenced heading has been added to the article above recently. The heading seems to me to perhaps not meet wikipedia guidelines regarding clarity. Also, the subsequent comments of the person who added the section seem at least to me to indicate that this is an interpretation of the subject, which may or may not deserve a primary heading in the article. I personally think (and I acknowledge that this is strictly personal) that it might fit into a larger "Interpretations of John" section, but perhaps not deserve a separate main heading. Any comments regarding this subject are welcome, preferably on the article talk page. John Carter 23:09, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I have replied on the article talk page. -- Pastordavid 23:44, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
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[edit] Old Testament Saints?

I note that Abraham is listed as a Saint on the Martyrologium Romanum, but isn't categorized as a saint. Should we try to include OT figures who are considered Saints by one or more Christian groups in this project or not? The articles which I think might most benefit from such attention are those about individuals from either the deuterocanonical books or other so-called minor figures in the OT. John Carter 23:46, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I've been thinking about this one, and I think not for right now. I understand the rationale for inclusion, but most of those figures are covered by 2-4 wikiprojects (most have some combination of Bible, Judaism, Mythology, and Christianity). I would be interested in adding those who are memorialized on Protestance liturgical calendars before we started adding OT figures. -- Pastordavid 20:40, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
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[edit] Dominic Savio a possible Good Article?

This article looks better than most of the B articles I've seen. Does anyone think it might qualify as a Good article candidate? John Carter 00:23, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

It looks good ... but it does seem a little on the long side. I would consider either trimming or spinning off before nominating. But that's just me.
Also, we have a number of A-class articles that are not currently GAs. Perhaps we should looks at nominating those before we start nominating the B-class ones. -- Pastordavid 00:36, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I just thought ... you may also want to have the article go through a peer review before nominating. -- Pastordavid 00:37, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
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[edit] Michael J. McGivney‎

The article on Father Michael J. McGivney‎ has been added to the project. His cause is before the Vatican, but as yet he has not been beatified. Does he still apply? --Briancua 20:02, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

The definition of "saint" in the non-Catholic churches is a lot looser than it is in the Catholic church. Most of the people who Catholics consider to be at Servant of God status or higher would very possibly qualify as saints in some other churches. To help remedy the potential inequalities involved, we (that is, I) am now trying to tag all those articles about parties who have reached at least servant of God status in the Catholic church with the banner. This way, if and when the process of canonization goes further, we will know where the various existing articles already are and be able to expand those requiring expansion and create those which don't already exist. We (that is, I) am also adding those commemorated on the calendars of saints of other churches, including the Lutheran churches, again in an attempt to at least potentially decrease the likelihood of the project being accused of taking a particular point of view. Also, I think that we may in this project might be a bit better at finding some sites relating to people in the process of being canonized than others might be. However, if you believe that the article should not be so tagged, you are clearly free to remove it or make any other changes you feel called for, like always in wikipedia. Hope that answers your question. :) John Carter 19:15, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
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[edit] John Chrysostom

Editors on this project might be interested in the John Chrysostom article. There is currently discussion over eight of his homilies (relating to Jews/Judaizing Christians), and what they should be named. Input would be welcomed. --Grimhelm 18:18, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

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[edit] Witchcraft section in Martin Luther

Someone has recently added a section on Martin Luther and witchcraft to the above page. The content was later removed by another editor, and reinserted by the content's creator. The disagreement seems to be about whether the content is "extraneous" to the article. There is now a discussion on the article's talk page regarding the subject, Any comments regarding the inclusion of this material in this article, and how much article space to give it, would be more than welcome. John Carter 18:20, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

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[edit] Featured Article Candidate

A saint article, Maximus the Confessor is a current Featured article Candidate. Comments may be left here. -- Pastordavid 21:46, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

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[edit] John of the Cross/John of Avila

Just browsing around and I noticed that there are separate pages for John of the Cross and John of Avila. I read over each to make sure that they are the same person and am quite certain that they are. I am not adept at editing Wikipedia, so I thought it would be best to bring this to someone else's attention. Thank you. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_the_Cross http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Avila—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.23.67.55 (talk) 02:12, 15 March 2007 (UTC).

Thanks for the helpful comment, but John of Avila (1500-1569) and John of the Cross (1542-1591) are different people. Although their bios have overlaps, they are distinct Spanish saints (neither of which is to be confused with John of God). -- Pastordavid 05:04, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
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[edit] For Comment

One of our articles, Isaac, is currently going through peer review, comments on the article can be made here (it has passed GA since the PR started, but I'm sure comments would be appreciated to help get the article to FA). Also, although not within the scope of the project but I'm sure of interest to many here, Vatican City is also having a peer review, comment here. And, Maximus the Confessor is still in the FA process, and votes/comments can be made here. -- Pastordavid 05:46, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

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[edit] Of Interest

There is currently a discussion about whether or not to rename/move Paul of Tarsus. -- Pastordavid 01:28, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

The following discussions are an archived debate. Please do not modify it.

[edit] Collaboration: Saint

The discussion about the proposed rename above got me thinking: we need to do some work on Saint. We don't seem to often assign collaborations, but I think this would be a great one. As our "parent article" (for lack of a better term), we should strive to get it to at least GA. -- Pastordavid 01:56, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I'll try to contact the various specific projects involved in the current article to help get their input as well. It might involve removing some content, but that's fine by me if that's what they want. John Carter 21:30, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
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[edit] Mother Teresa

I have taken a crack at improving the article on Mother Teresa. I'm going to remove the article from Category:Saints articles needing attention and start working on another one. We may be able to reduce the backlog Pastordavid mentioned if anyone else wants to help out. Majoreditor 01:51, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

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[edit] Hierotheos the Thesmothete

The article on Hierotheos the Thesmothete was a real mess. I think it's now in tolerable state. I've removed it from Category:Saints articles needing attention. Majoreditor 03:07, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Great cleanup of a very messy looking article (good additions to Theresa as well). -- Pastordavid 08:00, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
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[edit] Naming question

I have just started a new page on the saint known in Italian as Evasio and in Latin as Evasius. (No, I didn’t expect you to have heard of him!) I am not sure which name is preferable in English. Also I am not sure whether the name should be prefixed by “Saint”. In general, of course, the policy is to avoid that word in titles. And I support that in general as articles about real people should be primarily regarded as biographies and should use their secular names. But in this kind of case where the historicity of the individual—is he fact or fiction, I mean?—is extremely doubtful, but where the cult is clear and (moderately) interesting, perhaps it is better to include the S-word? (When someone moved my pedantically named Baudolino (hermit) to Saint Baudolino I thought: That’s against policy, but it’s certainly an improvement!)

I won’t be able to reply to this shortly as I am going to be away from Wikipedia for a bit. But I would be happy if you simply moved the article (if necessary) to whatever you think best. Currently he is at Saint Evasio. Cheers! —Ian Spackman 10:45, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Meh. I'm going to be bold and move it. He's listed under Evasius at Catholic Forum, the Dominican Martyrology, Catholic Encyclopedia, Orthodox England, et al., as well as the Almighty Google. --SigPig |SEND - OVER 12:52, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks! —Ian Spackman 11:10, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
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[edit] Proposed merger

I think Peter Baptist and Companions and Martyrs of Japan are two different names for the same subject. I have proposed that they be merged. Any opinions on either page are more than welcome. Thank you. John Carter 14:46, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I think you are right ... Just notice that Martyrs of Japan also includes a section on a broader set of persons. I would merge into Martyrs of Japan, rather than vice-versa, so that the term can continue to be defined in that broader sense as well. Pastordavid 15:59, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for catching that. I didn't catch that the first time. John Carter 22:14, 13 April 2007 (UTC)