Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Chemistry/Archive 16

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R-phrase and S-phrase

I today reverted a TfD-notice on {{R-phrase}}, which majorly disrupted the chemical pages transcluding the template (in the chemboxes). The discussion about the deletion can be found here. I understand there are some concerns, but deletion would result in a major disruption of the pages. Guess some further input from the project would be in place. --Dirk Beetstra T C 16:20, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Right now, me and some others on IRC are standardizing the S-phrases to use the R-phrase template. I also made the underline and all that for them to be purple instead of blue. This will have to do until we find a long-term solution. ViperSnake151 14:27, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I would like to promote the templates we have in the German WP. One template for the R-phrases and one for the S-phrases (instead of 126 + 74 individual templates here). Of course, the color and style can be changed to fit the requests here. For acetaldehyde e.g. {{S-phrases|(2)|16|33|36/37}} would result in S: (2-)16-33-36/37 (shown here without styles and tooltips), which is the way the phrases are given in the Annex I of Directive 67/548/EEC. With the currently used templates it looks like this: (S2), S16, S33, S36/37
The advantages of just 2 templates are IMHO the look, lower resources of the server and the possibility of easier changes if needed (instead of changing 126 + 74 individual templates). What do you think about that? --Leyo 15:32, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that there are lower server resources at all. As it is, the server has to call up a very long template (de:Vorlage:R-Sätze (Texte)), and once for each R-phrase, every time that a page containing R-phrases is edited. The possibilities of changing the format of the links exist already on enwiki, but need more profound discussion that has currently been undertaken. Also, de:Vorlage:R-sätze uses a style which is specific to these abbreviations, whereas the current templates on enwiki (until someone changed them last night) used the same style as all other abbreviations on Wikipedia, that is <span class= "abbr" title="yyyyy">XXX</span>. Physchim62 (talk) 16:46, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
I would not have a problem with this template change, it might indeed make it more easy to maintain (instead of 200+ templates). Serverload is not our problem, that is for the developers, and I think Chembox_new already does quite some with that (though the pages it is transcluded upon will be cached anyway, so not much of a trouble there). A bigger 'problem' is that the 200+ templates are transcluded onto at least 4000 pages, so before we would do the change, user:Chem-awb would have to do a run to change those all. Don't know if those small benefits would make it worth to do that. --Dirk Beetstra T C 10:14, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Happy to help, keep me posted! --Rifleman 82 11:30, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

So everyone knows, the discussion that was running on my user talk page about this has been moved to Template talk:R-phrase. Bryan Derksen 17:42, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

New template?

I am having difficulty in finding the different types of agents. This is due to not knowing them.

Thanks, Marasama 07:25, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think a template for "agents" is required, as they are often not related except by accidentally sharing the word agent in their name. But if you want to find some additional agents (and reagents), you could look at Category:Reagents for organic chemistry. --Itub 09:18, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
I suppose that is the case. But what is the general term for this? Chemical reaction? Although, I am not sure that anticaking falls under chemical reactions. Sorry to be a burden on this, Marasama 17:30, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Itub here. An "agent" in this sense is just "any chemical that does something". If you know what kind of thing you want to do, then there are already many ways to find chemicals that can do it (the various …Agent pages or articles about specific reactions, some catagories, etc.). DMacks 17:50, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Lye needs tweaking

Lye says:

Lye is a caustic solution which is made from ashes and is used for glass, soap making, textile production and certain food preparations, for example: lutefisk, chinese preserved duck eggs also known as "hundred-year-old eggs" or century eggs, and table olives.
Lye may also refer to:

The "caustic solution made from ashes" is sodium hydroxide solution or potassium hydroxide solution, right? -- 201.37.229.117 02:11, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

To my understanding you are correct except for the impurities. NaOH is the primary active ingredient.--Nick Y. (talk) 18:05, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
It's probably mostly the carbonate, but that depends on exactly how it's made. It is a "caustic" solution, definitely. Physchim62 (talk) 19:31, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Where to relocate the section on chemistry articles from MOS

Dear colleagues

A section called Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Articles_on_chemistry has been hanging around MOS incongruously for some time. It really doesn't belong there, and people have raised the issue of moving it to a more suitable location, with a link at MOS to that location. Any suggestions? If it stays, it raises the question of why we don't create lots of subject-specific sections in MOS. That would be undesirable. Tony (talk) 03:00, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think the main page of the MOS needs a section on Chemistry. We do have some detailed guidelines for chemicals, Wikipedia:WikiProject Chemicals/Style guidelines, which could be linked from a relevant place in the MOS. --Itub 07:31, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
There is work being done on the creation of a Wikipedia:Manual of Style (chemistry) for those points which are
  1. specific to chemistry; and
  2. of interest to other editors who might come accross chemistry articles.
I shall accelerate this work so that the redlink can be turned blue and that we can discuss what is included or not. Physchim62 (talk) 17:00, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
{{MOSCHEM}} now exists, and I have placed a first draft of ideas for WP:MOSCHEM at Wikipedia:WikiProject Chemistry/MOSCHEM. Physchim62 (talk) 13:00, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Tony (talk) 00:52, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Hello, Tony1. I remember you from featured article review, something about dashes. So I am taking the liberty of fixing a link above. -Susanlesch (talk) 06:04, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Cold fusion deletion discussions of interest

Please comment: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Polyneutron, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mizuno experiment, and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/CETI Patterson Power Cell ScienceApologist (talk) 14:39, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Standard conditions for temperature and pressure

User:Mbeychok pointed me to this page, Standard conditions for temperature and pressure. It has lately been edited by some IPs in an IP-range (Special:Contributions/12.188.209.132 & Special:Contributions/12.188.209.185), who changed the wording in a definition [Standard conditions for temperature and pressure example diff]. It may be worth having a look, maybe there is something that could be changed that would satisfy our IP-user. --Dirk Beetstra T C 10:51, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


Ilya Prigogine needs expansion

Ilya Prigogine is still basically a stub. Can anyone add to this? -- Writtenonsand (talk) 11:24, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

The German article is longer. You can include parts of that if you want. --Leyo (talk) 12:36, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide FAC

Hi there, NAD is up as a candidate for featured article. Reviews, comments and suggestions are welcome on the nomination page. Thank you. Tim Vickers (talk) 02:18, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

There has been very little traffic in this FAC, probably due to the technical nature of the material. Expert reviewers would be very welcome. Tim Vickers (talk) 20:26, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
The technical nature of the article is indeed impeding FA comment. However, it is also impeding readability by normal wikipedia visitors, and should be taken as a recommendation for improvement. I also left this and similar recommendations on the FAC page. Success with further improvements. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 21:40, 15 December 2007 (UTC).

User:B07

Can someone from this project take a look at the edits of user B07 (talk · contribs)? They seem fishy to me, and he's gotten a couple of warnings on his talk page. Thanks. Deli nk (talk) 19:25, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Looks like a clone of 170.211.137.6 (talk • contribs • info • WHOIS) who was doing this yesterday. DMacks (talk) 19:29, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Would it be bad to block that IP and see if B07 gets blocked? DMacks (talk) 19:30, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Anonymous editing from that IP is already blocked for the next 3 months, which is probably why he's back as a registered user. Are all the edits from B07 bad? Some seem ok when compared to data at the emolecules.com link in the infobox. Deli nk (talk) 19:37, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
The user is adding MWs with up to 7 significant figures. One entry is clearly wrong - for PH3, which I will revert. A quick check indicates that others edits may be okay. The main issue is the validity of so many significant figures at least for some inorganics where the isotope ratios do vary somewhat depending on location. He/she should consult with WE-chem before undertaking this broad revision of key data, in my opinion. --Smokefoot (talk) 23:16, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Greenspun illustration project: requests now open

Dear Wikimedians,

This is a (belated) announcement that requests are now being taken for illustrations to be created for the Philip Greenspun illustration project (PGIP).

The aim of the project is to create and improve illustrations on Wikimedia projects. You can help by identifying which important articles or concepts are missing illustrations (diagrams) that could make them a lot easier to understand. Requests should be made on this page: Philip_Greenspun_illustration_project/Requests

If there's a topic area you know a lot about or are involved with as a Wikiproject, why not conduct a review to see which illustrations are missing and needed for that topic? Existing content can be checked by using Mayflower to search Wikimedia Commons, or use the Free Image Search Tool to quickly check for images of a given topic in other-language projects.

The community suggestions will be used to shape the final list, which will be finalised to 50 specific requests for Round 1, due to start in January. People will be able to make suggestions for the duration of the project, not just in the lead-up to Round 1.

thanks, pfctdayelise (talk) 13:11, 13 December 2007 (UTC) (Project coordinator)

Bupropion

Bupropion will end on the front page and the (+/-) in the IUPAC name sounds strange. R/S sounds better or best without everything, but I am not sure.--Stone (talk) 12:36, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

(R/S) is definitely better. Physchim62 (talk) 13:48, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Zinc methyl

I would like to move the article to Dimethylzinc, like the already existing Diethylzinc, because it is the more common name.--Stone (talk) 14:02, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Done. --Rifleman 82 (talk) 14:30, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Google vs the world

Re Google's recently publicized idea about getting into the encyclopedia business, summarized in the article Knol. I am sure that the WE administrators are actively discussing this initiative, but I would be more interested in what the fellow chem-content providers think. What in the chem market would Google aim for? Of course, this line of thought may be terribly naive: if $ is on Google's mind (what else?), then a chemical encyclopedia may be a non-starter.--Smokefoot (talk) 18:28, 18 December 2007 (UTC)


NOCH

This was nominated for proposed deletion. I have removed the tag and also added the project tag to its talk page. It badly needs expansion but I think it might be notable for molecular modelers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bduke (talk • contribs) 22:28, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Request for input re Science Super-Categories

There is a CFD discussion underway at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_December_15#Category:Physical_sciences regarding the relationship between, and possible merging of, two Categories: Category:Physical sciences and Category:Natural sciences. Thus far the discussion has attracted very few comments and it has been relisted. Two editors suggested asking for input from this Project, but as far as I can see there was no follow-through on that -- until now. So please give this some thought, and then share your thoughts at the CFD linked above. Thanks! --Bduke (talk) 04:46, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

  • I have just made a significant alternative proposal. Please take a look and add your comments to this important discussion. Cgingold (talk) 02:28, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Notice of chemistry related category rename

We really need imput on a proposed renaming of a category. If you have the time and the knowledge, please drop a word at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_December_21#Category:Various_mixtures. Thanks!-Andrew c [talk] 05:03, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion for the safety sections

Can someone create a template, or a set of images that look something like this? They would be really useful to put on each compound page.Nergaal (talk) 11:54, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

See {{chembox new}}. Wikipedia is not an MSDS repository, so only a brief mention of the hazards are included. Examples of what *is* included: NFPA, EU hazard class, flash point. Other properties which are also mentioned in MSDSs such as bp, mp, solubility are also there. --Rifleman 82 (talk) 16:21, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
I don't really understand the reasong for the slight agressivity in your response, so I am going to assume you misunderstood my suggestion. Check this new link to be sure you got my suggestion. I did not ask for a full MSDS documentation! I was thinking only to the RHOMBUS that you see in the chemistry labs, with the four digits (the 0-4 scale) in the corners. It is the best gist you can have for a safety section.Nergaal (talk) 19:01, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
The NFPA "fire diamond" is already part of the standard {{chembox new}} template (look for "NFPA"). The documentation could use some improvement to make these fields easier to find. --Itub (talk) 19:45, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi Nergaal, I indeed misunderstood your suggestion. I thought you meant the *whole* page, rather than just the NFPA fire diamond. Quite a few people have attempted to turn wikipedia articles into all-encompassing MSDS and it peeves me. --Rifleman 82 (talk) 06:16, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Chemistry education or Chemical education

Please help us to sort which of these it should be in a debate at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 December 29#Category:Chemical education on whether this category should be renamed to Category:Chemistry education. This also has implications for the name of the article. I have given some background in a comment on the CfD discussion. Does it even matter that much? --Bduke (talk) 06:10, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

anyone know what reaction this is?

I just listed Image:Osvicsyndih.gif for deletion because it's orphaned and lacks a description. If anyone knows what reaction this is depicting please speak up at the deletion nomination to save it. Thanks, Calliopejen1 (talk) 18:20, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

It depicts the oxidation of an alkene with osmium tetroxide. The image appears to be redundant with Image:Oso4mechanism.gif. -- Ed (Edgar181) 18:23, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
And for what it's worth dept of curmudgeony chemistry (to start the New Year off!): both schemes are misleading, but this is the way such reactions are often depicted (I plead guilty of laxness too). It probably doesnt matter that much since it's the stoichiometry of the catalysis and the cis-ness of the addition that are of interest, and the artwork is more skillful that I can achieve. But notice how carefully the tetrahedral stereochemistry is depicted at carbon but poor old osmium is forced to exist in Flatland. And mongo OsO4 (Os=O ~ 1.7 A) shrinks, intimidated apparently, before the tiny alkene (C=C ~ 1.35 A). Also, not sure about the evidence for tetrahedral Os(VI)(OH)2O2, but that point may not be elucidated.--Smokefoot (talk) 18:45, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Urushiol vs Anacardic acid

Several articles state that the shell of the cashew nut from the Anacardium occidentale contain the Urushiol, which is a derivate of catechol (six membered ring with two OH), while the Anacardic acid article states that the cashew nut contains Anacardic acid, which is really similar to the Urushiol but is a derivate of salicylic acid(Six membered ring with one OH and one COOH). (Look at the picture in the Urushiol article and imagine that the second OH group is a COOH group). I will try to figure out what is right, but maybe somebody can help me with already established knowledge.--Stone (talk) 15:16, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, both are produced by Anacardiaceae; PMID 16095792 and PMID 8917839 may help you here. Cashew nuts certainly contain anacardic acids (apparently, cashew nut shell liquid is 90% anacardic acids), which can (also apparently :) induce contact dermatitis at high concentrations. Cardol, another compound found in cashew nuts and shells, is also a potent allergen. I guess the jury's still out on the causative agent. Fvasconcellos (t·c) 13:03, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
P.S. No structure for anacardic acid? :( Fvasconcellos (t·c) 13:04, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
There's a figure here [1], in case anyone wants to draw the structure. --Itub (talk) 13:11, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

van der Waals or Van der Waals?

Check out this diff. Was it the right thing to do? Does any know the correct capitalisation?

Ben (talk) 11:53, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

The ACS Style Guide recommends van der Waals. --Itub (talk) 12:02, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Looking to Wikipedia for an answer, I found this: Van (Dutch). It suggests van der Waals is correct. "In terms like van der Waals radius (Dutch: vanderwaalsstraal) the 'v' is not capitalised, unless it is the first word of the sentence." -- Ed (Edgar181) 12:06, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
"Van" is the equivalent of the German "von", the English "of", the French "de" and the Italian "di": it is not usually capitalized, except (as here!) when it occurs at the start of a sentence. Physchim62 (talk) 12:35, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
See also Johannes Diderik van der Waals :) Physchim62 (talk) 12:37, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Proposed improvement of our article on ChemSpider

We have an existing article on this apparently-benevolent web site, which provides free chemistry structure searches and has no subscription fees at all. There was a bit of a furor in mid-2007, with a WQA complaint and an AfD discussion, because some people were concerned that the article was a COI and the topic not well enough known. The AfD closed with Keep. Six months went by. ChemSpider became a bit more famous, and the site's operator, Antony Williams, has been helping some of our chemistry editors curate the structures in our articles.

I thought the ChemSpider article might deserve some improvement, so I suggested to Antony, who edits WP as User:ChemSpiderMan, that he propose an expansion of that article on a Talk page. Others who weren't COI-affected could go ahead and move the material into the article, if we thought it was OK. He has proposed some new material at User talk:ChemSpiderMan#Improvement of ChemSpider article and your comments are appreciated. Comments can be left on his Talk. If you agree with any of the new stuff, move it into the article. EdJohnston (talk) 04:08, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Open access now required for EU-supported research

Please see this report which includes all the main links. The main gist is that "The ERC requires that all peer-reviewed publications from ERC-funded research projects be deposited on publication into an appropriate research repository....and subsequently made Open Access within 6 months of publication". Wikipedians may wish also to sign the Petition of support - this will help with the flak they are now taking from the commercial publishers. This news is a little stale but I'll try to write a short piece for the Portal and for Wikinews. Walkerma (talk) 19:09, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

  • Great news!, but where can I sign the petition! V8rik (talk) 19:34, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
    • Now added, sorry about that! Walkerma (talk) 20:40, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
      • Thanks, I am petitioner no 27006 V8rik (talk) 21:03, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
      • I signed too.--Smokefoot (talk) 21:00, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
      • number 27013 - slow going! Axiosaurus (talk) 11:23, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
      • Slow going indeed. I just signed. --Rifleman 82 (talk) 12:13, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
      • And one more! --Dirk Beetstra T C 09:39, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Geometry boxes - what gives?

Would someone please look over the work by User:The Valid One. I give up. This editor is entering information in so-called geometry information boxes, which is, IMHO, substandard or archaic or misleading, as well as jargon-y ("bond directions"). Its the usual problem - well intentioned but incorrect/incomplete and non-consultative. The editor leaves no edit summaries. I tried reverting and editing, but to no effect. So perhaps a more patient or kinder soul than me could get some action.--Smokefoot (talk) 21:00, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

"Jargon" changes have already been made. By overwhelming agreement hybridisation is deemed for removal, however nobody seems willing to explain to me what exactly a valid "fill" for that slot would be. I spent some time looking into molecular orbit, which was beyond my level of math, let alone scientific understanding. The only other applicable information I can think of would be a few things regarding stereochemistry, though that kind of thing is too compound-specific to really work on an infobox for a geometry.·· TVOtalk 07:26, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
I've removed the hybridisation spot on the template for now. I've left the corresponding syntax on the geometry pages. Interestingly enough, quite a few articles (this one, this one, and others) seem to advocate the use of hybridization to describe molecular structure. I've removed it based on your message on my talk page, but I still think that hybridization is a valid piece of information. The format would be changed to reflect the involvement of the d-orbital on pages such as octahedral.·· TVOtalk 16:26, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
IMO these boxes should be removed, because they are misleading and unnecessary. It is part of a strange Wikipedia fashion of trying to put everything into little boxes whether it makes sense or not. --Itub (talk) 09:31, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree 100%, they are misleading and unnecessary. I removed the one for linear geometry this AM. They should be removed.--Smokefoot (talk) 13:21, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

If this information must be removed (this is a worst case scenario.), it needs to be saved so that the valid one and I can place this information somewhere. Molecular geometry is important, and some of the information in the boxes, while it is disorganized, is important. In what way should we organize this? Jokermole (talk) 19:36, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

On 16 January 2007, Richard 001 wrote, there could be "an article purely dealing with the different shapes (e.g. List of VSEPR geometries) and a brief list here." Why don't we just do that? Jokermole (talk) 21:18, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Before the kids get going, please repair the current boxes. Once again here are my concerns:
  • Point group: Square planar compounds usually are not D4h, right? so get rid of this entry or insert all of the lower sym groups.
  • Steric number →a serious problem, right? How many lone pairs are on the Ir in Vaska's complex?
  • Coordination number 4 → do we need a table for this number?
  • Bond angle(s) 90° →ditto, do we need a table for this number?
  • μ (Polarity) → most square planar complexes have a dipole moment, right? So this entry is incorrect or needs to be explained at length.

Wikipedia can be an effective teaching tool, but the teachers need to be careful. There is a related project called wikibooks that would probably be far more suitable for this class. Is there a section on VSEPR in wikibooks?--Smokefoot (talk) 03:00, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

We will fix. It's probably not the best idea, but I don't think anything will change... Jmole (talk) 03:57, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Why don't you have a look at this wikibook link? This is a page essentially about molecular geometry and VSEPR that needs a lot of work. It would, as Smokefoot says, make a much better project. Chris (talk) 08:30, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

This interesting discussion prompted me to look at what wiki has re symmetry point groups. Oh dear! What I found was too mathematical to be helpful from a chemists POV. The best article seems to me to be this french one. Does anyone share my view that we need a "Symmetry point groups-chemistry article.--Axiosaurus (talk) 10:00, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Is not Molecular symmetry what you want? If not, can that article be improved to what you want? The french article is on crystal groups not molecular point groups. --Bduke (talk) 10:23, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Now I see that molecular symmetry is almost what I had in mind. I didn't find it because I was looking for something with "point group" in the title. :) --Itub (talk) 10:29, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
That French article is about space groups, not point groups. We have List of character tables for chemically important 3D point groups which is useful but too advanced (useful only if you already know what a character table is, how to use it, and how to assign the point group). The article on Point groups in three dimensions is mathematical and too general. What we need is an article with examples of real molecules belonging to each point group, listing the symmetry elements of each group, with pretty pictures of the molecules and a flow chart such as [2] to explain how the point group of a molecule can be determined. Basically what one can find in an appendix in many inorganic or physical chemistry textbooks. I like for example, Appendix 2, "Symmetry Elements, Symmetry Operations and Point Groups" in Greenwood, N. N.; Earnshaw, A. (1997). Chemistry of the Elements, 2nd Edition, Oxford:Butterworth-Heinemann. ISBN 0-7506-3365-4. . We could call it Point groups in chemistry or something similar. --Itub (talk) 10:24, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes I did spot the space groups but it was the symmetry elements that appealed. I remember you talking about space and point groups a long time ago and then sending me to see Sam Small! However molecular symmetry was one i didn't find so thank you for that. Its pretty good and close to what I had in mind when I was looking for a suitable link from say C2v and just couldn't find one. Pretty pictures are the key and I go along with Itub on that. Perhaps a separate article per point group would be justified. It could have pictures of mirror planes and rotation axes etc, a list of examples and discussion of the physical properties affected by the symmetry e.g. dipole moment, vibrational spectra as well as atomic orbital groupings. Something to turn symmetry into a chemical tool rather than a mathematical abstraction. --Axiosaurus (talk) 18:05, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Molecular geometry

I have tagged all of the articles in the molecular geometry template at the bottom of this article. A few were already tagged. Some of the articles are quite old, while some are new. Some of these surfer from the same problem as the note above. They need more eyes on them. I'm too busy right now. --Bduke (talk) 02:33, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

And while we're here, can we move Trigonal bipyramid molecular geometry to Trigonal bipyramidal molecular geometry? The latter is consistent with octahedral, tetrahedral etc, but already exists as a redirect to the former. For some reason, the latter was moved to the former a couple of years ago, but I've no idea why. It will take an admin to move it back. Chris (talk) 22:40, 21 January 2008 (UTC) PS: pentagonal bipyramid molecular geometry too.
Me again. I have problems with the idea of steric number in these infoboxes. For example, the square planar molecular geometry infobox says steric number 6, which may be all very well for XeF4, but is much less good for the equally square planar [PtCl4]2-, or indeed the [AuCl4]- that is given as an example on the page. Also, can we remove polarity from the diatomic box, because this whilst it's zero for all homonuclear diatomics, it will be different for all heteronuclear ones. Generally, I tend to agree with Smokefoot that these infobox things are a vast over-simplification that create more problems than they solve. Chris (talk) 23:10, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I want to let everyone know that our high school chemistry class, about 42 people in total, will be tackling the molecular geometry articles by the end of this week. User: The Valid One and I will monitor the class' progress. Just to warn over-eager editors, many of these people, although bright in chemistry, are relative newbs in wikipedia. I am confident with your patience, any possible errors will self-correct. We recently tackled the eudiometer page, and I believe the final product was quite acceptable. Jmole (talk) 01:11, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

New article needing cleanup

In case anyone is interested: Nephelauxetic effect could use some expert love. --Itub (talk) 12:20, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

OK, I'll do it. Give me day or two....Chris (talk) 22:01, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Weekly IRC meetings for WP:CHEMISTRY/WP:CHEM

We had an IRC meeting on Jan 15, 2008 to discuss validation of chembox information and reuse of the data in databases and mashups. We agreed to meet again informally one week later (today, Jan 22) to discuss some of the details, like how to structure the data, how to deal with salts, etc. It looks like this will become a regular meeting, so we have set up a page at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Chemistry/IRC_discussions. Please join us on January 29 at 1600h UTC (11am US EST, 1700h Central European Time)! We hope to discuss InChIs and InChIKeys, though it will depend somewhat on who is able to come to the meeting. Cheers, Walkerma (talk) 18:39, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Andrussov oxidation

I will change Andrussov oxidation to Andrussow oxidation, because the name of the discoverer is only of russian origin, but after the revolution Leonid Andrussow lifed in Germany and later in France and there he used the writing with W and not with V what his publications and patens clearly show. So this is not a transcription of cyrylic letters, but true latin letters.--Stone (talk) 20:25, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

2-Phenyl-hexane

Is there anything noteworthy about this chemical? Notification of relevant AfD. Mostlyharmless (talk) 06:42, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Phosphite fertilizers

(Moved from the IRC discussion page) I got to this page looking through the Phosphite discussions. I posted a question there that I will post here for response:

I am a turfgrass manager dealing with many variety of organic and synthetic fertilizers. People are beginning to talk about the use of Phosphite materials vs Phosphate(or the usual Phosphorous in fertilizer N-P-K formulations.) Regular phosphate fertilizers come in the form of P2O5 while the new phosphite fertilizers are H3PO3. Can anyone help me in explaining what is the main distinction between the two compounds are. I am trying to understand the role of each as it affects the nutritional role and nutrient availability to plant cell health. Basicly why one is better or worse than the other?

Thanks for your input! The chemistry page is awesome.

Hotlunch2000 (talk) 15:56, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

This is not the proper forum for this discussion. I'll think of where to move it. But in the mean time - are you certain phosphorus pentoxide is used as a fertilizer? That's strange because that material is rather caustic. --Rifleman 82 (talk) 17:49, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure this is because of the tradition of presenting % information for such things in terms of the oxides, it's not that the fertiliser actually contains P2O5 (or K2O, for that matter!). So from the chemist's viewpoint, the question should be phrased as, "How does hydrogen phosphate (or is it dihydrogen phosphate?) compare with phosphite (or is it hydrogen phosphite?) as a fertiliser?" The main difference is that phosphites are reducing agents whereas phosphates are not, but I don't know how that changes things in the ecosystem or in the nutritional sense. I would like to move this to WT:Chemistry, OK? Walkerma (talk) 18:30, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm sure you mean phosphorous acid for H3PO3? --Rifleman 82 (talk) 09:23, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Phosphate is PO43- (i.e. comes form H3PO4, which is water+P2O5), phosphite is PO33- (i.e. comes from H3PO3 which is obtained from water+P2O3). Basically the problem comes from ignorant industry employers that don't care about rigurous nomenclature and assign names based on what they find easier to remember, not what is more logical. Nergaal (talk) 10:45, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
doi:10.1081/PLN-100106017 should give a clue what is going on and what is pure marleting and blunt advertising.--Stone (talk) 11:14, 27 January 2008 (UTC) also Journal of plant nutrition 2000, vol. 23, no2, pp. 161-180 might also help to understand.--Stone (talk) 11:46, 27 January 2008 (UTC)


Thanks for the input. Stone: The journal article was helpful. Thanks! Too often in my industry(plant science) we are bombarded with the latest forms of fertilizer and nutrient transporters. They all seem great.....at first. I am sure this is the same everywhere: pharm, food prod, curative agents, etc.... If you would indulge me, here is the product information that was given to me by a sales person:

Phosphite 30 is a pure Potassium Phosphite fertilizer solution that is manufactured in a one step process by reatcing Phosphorous Acid and Potassium Hydoxide in a patented high temperature, rapid cooling process, that preserves the maximum amount of Phosphorous in the desirable H3PO3 form. This unique Phosphite 30 manufacturing process neither contains nor requires any H3PO3 preserving or solubility additives that are necesary in competitive products. As a result, Phosphite 30 economically feeds and protects plants through superior Phosphorous Acid nutrition.

Guaranteed Analysis Phosphite 30 (0-30-27)

Available Phosphoric Acid (P2O5) - 30.00% (AOAC method 960.02) Soluble Potash (K2O) - 27.00%

Comments? Thanks again. I am new to Wiki. This has been very informative and helpful!

Hotlunch2000 (talk) 16:30, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Participants

What shall we do with people not active any more:

Eequor -- Feb 2007
Dawn_Burn -- Jun 2006
Darrien -- Sep 2005
Chemist1828 -- Jun 2007
Causesobad -- May 2007
CarbonCopy -- Jan 2006
C_kam_yuen -- May 2006 only one edit
Bobo_The_Ninja -- Jul 2007

--Stone (talk) 23:24, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Jawz -- Feb 2006
N4nojohn -- Aug 2007

--Stone (talk) 23:28, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

LOISBB -- no entry
Natalinasmpf -- no entry
Nitin.viswanathan -- Jan 2007
OrientalKnight -- no entry
Pez2 -- Jun 2007
Physical Chemist -- Jul 2006
Physicq210 -- no entry
Quantockgoblin -- Apr 2007
Rayleung2709 -- May 2006
Shoyrudude555 -- no entry
Silmarillion -- Jun 2006
Chemprincess5 -- March 2007
Terri G -- Jun 2007
ThinkOutsideTheTesseract -- Mar 2007
Tobes00 -- April 2007

--Stone (talk) 07:45, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Remove? Wim van Dorst (talk) 19:49, 21 March 2008 (UTC).

  • I simply deleted the people who have not been active in WP since 2006. Wim van Dorst (talk) 19:56, 21 March 2008 (UTC).

Functional groups style guidelines

I'm trying to prepare a style guide for functional groups. This would include articles like alkane, alcohol, aldehyde, etc. Of particular interest (to me, at least), is the spectroscopy section - how do we identify and characterize these compounds?

I've prepared a skeleton here. Please take a look and expand/comment! --Rifleman 82 (talk) 10:13, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I like the layout, I think it will work well in nearly all cases. I've changed it a little according to my viewpoint, feel free to revert anything you don't like. I think occurrence isn't the most important section, and so I wouldn't want it right after the lead, and also I think it belongs right before "preparation". I also added "Applications". Another possibility would to be to reduce the number of top-level sections by making some be ===Subsection style===. For example, the Structure/Properties/Characteristics sections go together somewhat, but I'm not clear how best to reorganize them. Walkerma (talk) 18:32, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Request for an expert view on Resveratrol

Howdy from the Wine Project! I was wonder if some folks from the Chemistry project would be willing to lend an expert eye to the Resveratrol article. While it is an important wine-related topic, it is a bit too technical for me to evaluate whether the recent furry of changes in the last few weeks should be cause for concern or not. It seems that a few editors (whose contribution history seems to be mostly confined to this one article) are sparing over competing agendas. Any expert view or help in sorting things out would be greatly appreciated. :) AgneCheese/Wine 00:34, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Reminder of the Philip Greenspun Illustration project

Hi. You may be familiar with the Philip Greenspun Illustration Project. $20,000 has been donated to pay for the creation of high quality diagrams for Wikipedia and its sister projects.

Requests are currently being taken at m:Philip Greenspun illustration project/Requests and input from members of this project would be very welcome. If you can think of any diagrams (not photos or maps) that would be useful then I encourage you to suggest them at this page. If there is any free content material that would assist in drawing the diagram then it would be great if you could list that, too.

If there are any related (or unrelated) WikiProjects you think might have some suggestions then please pass this request over. Thanks. --Cherry blossom tree 16:43, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

New articles

Chichibabin reaction, Vanillyl, Chloroauric acid. --Stone (talk) 10:23, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Element lists merge proposal

I've proposed merging the element lists; see Template talk:PeriodicTablesFooter#Merge lists proposal. (PS: Wikipedia:WikiProject Chemistry/Articles to be merged is out of date) jnestorius(talk) 15:23, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Serial dilution

Just a quick new article, as it seemed easier than explaining a common term on every appearance. Adam Cuerden talk 08:31, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Good, I've added a ref. and a category. I'd mention the use in homeopathy, but that's probably not a good idea given the current edit wars. ;-) --Itub (talk) 09:37, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Colloid

Just ran across this while doing copyediting. I'm not a science guy but the article looks to be in dire need of attention. Aren't colloids one of the most important topics in chemistry? The university-level textbooks I've got all seem to think so. I'm not qualified to say if there are still outright errors (Nature savaged the article several years ago, talk page posters still seem to think there are) but it's so vague and jargonistic that even if technically correct, it's going to be of little help do anyone who doesn't already know the subject. I already added the "Needs urgent attention" tag for WP Physics, but your project doesn't seem to have one, so here I am. <eleland/talkedits> 03:19, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Hydrogen

Hydrogen has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here.—RJH (talk) 17:55, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Ben's RfA

Hi chemists,

I'm hoping to become an administrator.

If anyone wants to comment, my RfA is here.

Cheers

Ben (talk) 00:37, 5 March 2008 (UTC)


Prolific "See also" molecular modeling spammer

Apparently user 212.16.161.89 is really proud of the molecular modeling page. He has placed links about 50 links from chemistry page to molecular modeling. Most of these seem highly tangential at best. I wanted to get the opinions of other on the best way to proceed. Let me know. M stone (talk) 23:57, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I'd remove if not directly relevant: WP:ALSO says it's for "related articles". It's not (to use the case at hand) just for any topic that could conceivably be modelled. The MOS also advises to "provide a brief explanatory sentence when the relevance of the added links is not immediately apparent", so could suggest that he do so. If he can't or it's the rationale is a stretch, then even more confidence in deleting it. DMacks (talk) 00:47, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
  • I have removed some of the links already at an early stage: fore example here [3] and here [4] with motivation stated V8rik (talk) 18:46, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
I left a message at the Talk page of 212.16.161.89 (talk · contribs) inviting him to join this thread. He has not edited since 3 March, so if he's a spammer, he's not continuing. Though his edits are misguided, his contributions might conceivably be useful in the future. If editors here agree that all his edits are incorrect, someone who has AWB might roll them all back. EdJohnston (talk) 19:29, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

1-Octen-3-ol CAS numbers?

I'm trying to track down the CAS numbers for 1-octen-3-ol. The best I could find is this page from a book about coffee. It lists the numbers [3391-86-4], (±) [50999-79-6], (R)-(-) [3687-48-7], (S)-(+) [24587-53-9]. My question is: what's the difference between 3391-86-4 and 50999-79-6? Both appear to refer to a mixture of the two enantiomers. Thanks, AxelBoldt (talk) 17:32, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

CAS themselves are going to have a look at it, but for now, just add them and we will see what comes out of that. There are many cases of compounds having more than one CAS number, or compounds that don't have one, or CAS numbers pointing to two compounds .. at the moment a bit unreliable (and that is also one of the reasons why we don't link to an external linkfarm with it anymore. Hope this helps. --Dirk Beetstra T C 19:34, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
According to CAS, [50999-79-6] is a deleted CAS number and [3391-86-4] should be used instead. -- Ed (Edgar181) 19:45, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Applications of groups in chemistry?

The group (mathematics) article is a current collaboration of the month in the WP Math. If some of you have time, can you please post a couple of applications of this notion in chemistry? (Please reply either by collaborating directly or at the talk page). Thanks, Jakob.scholbach (talk) 17:34, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

IUPAC nomenclature of inorganic chemistry 2005

I have added a new article. It is large and IMO needs to be split down. However I think a consensus on how this is achieved should be reached. There is also an existing article IUPAC nomenclature of inorganic chemistry that I could have add this tome into. However I think it is easier to see the problem doing it this way. I am off very soon for a short break and I look forward to seeing your comments/actions etc. on my return in a coupe of weeks time --Axiosaurus (talk) 20:41, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

It would be nice if this article noted that only some of the recommendations are followed, and even these only loosely. IUPAC is a well-intentioned operation but its recommendations, if followed scrupulously, would be unpleasant for practicing chemists. So one suggestion is that Wikipedia:Manual of Style (chemistry)/draft note the helpfulness of IUPAC (thorough examination of the scope of nomenclature world, with recommendations) but also note that orthodoxy is impractical and possibly unwelcome.--Smokefoot (talk) 14:27, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Proposal to make Entropy (disambiguation) the primary page for Entropy

What page should Wikipedia serve up as the primary page for the word "Entropy" ?

If a reader puts "Entropy" into the search box, should they be shown:

  • The current Entropy (disambiguation) page, from which readers can find thermodynamic entropy in the list if that is what they are looking for ?
  • Or the current Entropy page, which focusses only on thermodynamic entropy, with other uses covered by a hatnote leading to a disambiguation page ?

There is a proposal to change to the first.

Views and opinions are now being canvassed at Talk:Entropy#Requested_move. Jheald (talk) 13:06, 31 March 2008 (UTC)