Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Buddhism/Archive 1

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Mongol prince

I don't know where to post it. Can someone knowledgeable about Sanskrit reconstruct the original name of the Prince of Liang from the Chinese transcription 把匝剌瓦爾密 (ba-za-la-wa-er-mi)? He is a Mongol prince, and like other imperial members, he had a very Buddhist name (Tibetan or Sanskrit). I think 把匝剌 must be "vajra" but I don't know what wa-er-mi (varmi?) means. --Nanshu 01:51, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Religion- Talk

In case you are interested. --Juan Muslim 06:37, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Wikiportal

Hi all. I hope you know about Portal:Buddhism. It is being discussed whether the portal should be deleted because it doesn't satisfy certain requirements, because not much work has been done on it. Please see the discussion here. I request you to please contribute and make the portal survive. Thanks. deeptrivia (talk) 04:15, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Religion

Please comment: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Religion#interreligious --Striver 05:13, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Improvement drive

Meditation is currently nominated on WP:IDRIVE. If you want to see it improved and could help us bring it up to featured standard, please vote for it here! --Fenice 08:59, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Comparative Religions Template

Please visit this template I'm working on to go at the bottom of all of the major religious pages as a way to facilitate comparative religion research. Leave your comments on its talk page. Thanks! --Mareino 01:17, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

{{Buddhism portal}}

Please put on important articles. deeptrivia (talk) 17:14, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Buddhism in Afghanistan

This article is a stub. There's a long history of Buddhism in Afghanistan. Please take a look. deeptrivia (talk) 03:00, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

every think about organizing the buddhism cat?

Place is a mess. I tried cleaning some but it's so big.--Dangerous-Boy 11:14, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Template:Indian Philosophy

Please fill the Buddhist Philosophy section with more details. I think we'll need to restrict it to Buddhist philosophy developed in India. deeptrivia (talk) 15:54, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

That would be a quite arbitrary & artificial restriction. Peter jackson 15:05, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Wikibuddhist.

Hi, i am starting a project to create a new wiki for buddhists. please sign your name on my userpage if you wish to help. will only create site if enough people are interested. Pure inuyasha 23:26, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Portal:Buddhism

Wow! This is a quiet corner of wikipedia. I was wondering if we can all work together in getting Portal:Buddhism the featured portal status. deeptrivia (talk) 04:55, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Fornication

I've recently been updating the article on Fornication, and I'm interested to learn about the Buddhist perspective, which i've left space for. Is it possible for someone here to write a paragraph or two?? A J Hay 07:41, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

A place to start might be Maurice Walshe's "Buddhism and Sex" BPS Wheel article posted on accesstoinsight.org at: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/walshe/wheel225.html. (Walshe is probably most famous for his translation of the Digha Nikaya.) [It's on my to-read list but I figured, given its author, publisher and hosting website, it's probably pretty good :-) ] LarryR 00:39, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Key articles for Wikipedia 1.0

Hello! We at the Work via WikiProjects team for Wikipedia 1.0 would like you to identify the "key articles" from your project that should be included in a small CD release due to their importance, regardless of quality. We will use that information to assess which articles should be nominated for Version 0.5 and later versions. Hopefully it will help you identify which articles are the most important for the project to work on. As well, please add to the Buddhism WikiProject article table any articles of high quality. If you are interested in developing a worklist such as this one for your WikiProject, or having a bot generate a worklist automatically for you, please contact us. Please feel free to post your suggestions right here. Thanks! Walkerma 06:06, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Help needed with problematic article (Phende)

I stumbled across this article by accident and found it to be very problematic with regards to sourcing, POV, grammar, etc. I made a few attempts to fix some obvious problems but a great deal of work remains just to meet Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. It's even possible this article may need to be deleted; I just don't know enough about Buddhism. My edits were purely from the viewpoint of what appeared to violate Wikipedia rules and guidelines. I don't have the time or knowledge to keep working on this.

I also noticed that the article's author had a history of submitting other problematic material (for instance American Buddha Online Library).

This article needs a review by someone familiar with the topic. I have left some additional comments on the article's talk page.
Thanks,
--A. B. 14:38, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

FYI, I just noticed another article, Ngor, linked to the Phende article that seems to share the same style and the same problems.--A. B. 18:42, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

How do I join.

Just maybe five minutes ago I decided I was a Buddhist. So I would like to join the WikiProject. How might I do this? Zazaban 05:45, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Couple of questions

Hi, regarding the category Buddhist myths: If I may say so, for me, the word mythical is very close to fairy tales and fantasy; when things fall in that category, I would not call them Buddhism. There are however aspect like you mentioned that are difficult for ordinary people to directly experience - but so is the backside of the moon. All in all, Buddhist mythology is for me almost a contradiction in terms.

Regarding a page for people in Buddhism: who needs that, and do you want to add a few, dozens, or hundreds of names? Of course Buddhist Teachers is a very valid sectionrudy 11:49, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with you about Category:Buddhist mythology. I have long maintained that it should only be applied to fairy tales and such that are in some way related to Buddhism.—Nat Krause(Talk!) 18:39, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

religioustolerance dot org

I came across over 700 links to this organization, Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance. The site has a ton of ads but on the other hand, it has content (and a Wikipedia article).

Normally, such an ad-intensive site with so many links gets attention at WikiProject Spam for further investigation. Even if it's not spam, many links may often get deleted as not meeting the external links guideline. I've left a note at WikiProject Spam asking others to look at some of these and see what they think.

Even some non-profit organizations will add dozens of links to Wikipedia since links in Wikipedia are heavily weighted in Google's page ranking systems. (If interested, see the article on Spamdexing for more on this).

You can see all the links by going to this this "Search web links" page. I encourage you to look at Wikipedia's external links guideline then look at the links in the articles you normally watch. Also, if you don't mind, please also weigh in at WikiProject Spam with your opinions. If you see links to pages that you don't think add additional value beyond the content already in an article, feel free to delete them, but please don't go mindlessly deleting dozens of links. (Per WP:EL, links that don't add additional value should be deleted but that doesn't necessarily mean they're "spam").

Thanks for your help and for providing some second opinions. --A. B. 17:01, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Lerab Ling and related articles

I am crossposting this to WikiProject Tibetan Buddhism, but I thought I might get more response here. I was looking at random articles today and came across Lerab Ling, whose text struck me as something that could have been lifted directly from a promotional brochure. Following the links, I discovered Sogyal Rinpoche and The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying, both of which are even more promotional. The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying is exceptionally bad; the first words of the article describe the book as "an acclaimed spiritual masterpiece," and glowing celebrity reviews are interspersed with statements like, "This jewel of Tibetan wisdom is the definitive spiritual classic for our time." In his article, Sogyal Rinpoche is described as "one of the most renowned teachers of our time" and "the author of the highly-acclaimed and ground breaking book, The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying. I have no idea how much influence Lerab Ling, Sogyal Rinpoche, and his book really have in Tibetan Buddhism, so I was hoping that someone more familiar with the topic could take a look at these articles and evaluate the truth of these glowing statements. In the meantime, I've marked all three with {{advert}} tags. Thanks. - AdelaMae (talk - contribs) 18:23, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Nice catches AdelaMae! A minor tangent, if I may: If The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying is possibly going to be deleted, should it perhaps be subsequently made into a #REDIRECT for Bardo_Thodol? LarryR 22:49, 8 December 2006 (UTC) P.S. Whoops! My bad. My wife (who has a Vajrayanic practice) tells me that this Sogyal Rinpoche book is not the same as the Bardo Thodol (which was classically translated as "Tibetan Book of the Dead"). Please ignore yet another example of my vast ignorance. LarryR 16:41, 9 December 2006 (UTC)


Category:Religious leaders

The current organization there is abit muddled, and needs some discussing how to deal with. A general proposal for cleaning it up is posted at Category talk:Religious leaders#Organization proposal, and more input would be great. It doesn't address the issue of Religious leaders/religious workers/religious figures, but that is another issue that exists. Badbilltucker 21:55, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Assessment

I have noted that this project does not yet engage in assessment. I am a member of WikiProject Religion, which does engage in assessments. I was wondering if this project would have any objections to the Religion project setting up its banner in a way similar to WikiProject Australia, WikiProject Military history, and others, which have the "parent" banner on top with the assessment criteria and a section below indicating which particular projects have specific interest in the article. I could set up the Religion banner in a way to accomplish this. However, given the complexity involved, I would not want to do so and have things changed back later. Please inform me if this arrangement would be to your satisfaction or not, so I can know how to proceed. Thank you. Badbilltucker 14:55, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for doing this Badbill. NinaEliza (talk • contribs • logs) 22:41, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Renaming some articles

We need to start renaming or redirecting some articles of both people and concepts for clarity and common usage. If someone goes by a nickname, for example, it's most appropriate to have a redirect of that nickname. This is particularly true for honorifics.

For example, Nichiren is often called Nichiren Daishonin by his followers. A redirect to Nichiren would be in order (if it has not been done already). I propose we start a list of articles that need these redirects/renamings. Larry has kindly offered to help, and he has a lot of energy.

On a side note, the one time I looked at Nichiren, it didn't include his writings on the game Go, and a host of other things. I'm entreating others to look into it - I'm too cl ose to the topic. NinaEliza (talk • contribs • logs) 22:58, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

As NinaEliza indicates, I do second this effort. The thing that's troubled me lately (and I've perpetrated this problem myself multiple times) is the non-English-naming of articles on Buddhist terms and concepts, such as Sravaka ("disciple"), Upasaka ("lay follower"??), Upadana ("clinging") and even my beloved Skandha ("aggregate"?). Admittedly, this makes sense for some concepts (e.g., Nirvana, buddha), but I think it would be of benefit to have lesser-known terms have their "Main" articles using English titles. Any thoughts? Am I embarrassing myself yet again by rehashing something that was already discussed, decided and implement? (If so, humble apologies yet again :-( ). Metta, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 00:08, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Belated response. THe general WP preference is for English. However, some terms don't have a standard translation, in which case the original might be commoner than any one translation. Peter jackson 15:18, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Good point. Guess it's tricky. Relatedly, User:munge pointed out on Talk:Sravaka that using an English term for a non-English word also causes the loss of textual context opening the article up for a variety of unforeseen additions. Okay, guess I won't pursue this after all :-) Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 16:15, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia Day Awards

Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 18:21, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Religion

The group indicated above was recently revitalized for, among other things, the purpose of working on those articles whose content is such that the article does not fall within the scope of any particular denomination. To most effectively do this, however, we would benefit greatly if there were at least one member from this Project working on those articles. On that basis, I would encourage and welcome any member of this Project willing to work on those articles to join the Religion WikiProject. Thank you. Badbilltucker 22:41, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Japanese Buddhism

It has been proposed elsewhere that Japanese Buddhism be counted as a separate specific entity, particularly because of the inclusion of many ideas and practices which seem to have been used in Shinto as well. Would the members of this project object if articles relating specifically and only to Japanese Buddhism were to be overseen by either the Shinto or Japanese mythology WikiProject as well, given its status as a kind of syncretion of Buddhism and Shinto/Japanese mythology? Badbilltucker 20:32, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Buddhist art up for featured article review

Buddhist art has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. Green451 18:46, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Proposed deletion: Buddhist Images

An editor has proposed deleting the article Buddhist Images. Fg2 01:08, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Citations

I think it's clear from Wikipedia: Attribution that articles about Buddhism should be citing scholars, not Buddhists, except when they're specifically talking about the teachings of a particular person or organization. Peter jackson 09:58, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi Peter, does that mean that for citations on Christianity, only non-christian scholars are acceptable? Geshes are considered Buddhist scholars, what about them? Is His Holiness the Dalai Lama an unacceptable source? rudy 09:33, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
The question is, which hat are they wearing? The criteria given in the guidelines are basically referred to the publisher. Thus Nanamoli's books published by the Pali Text Society are proper sources to cite, because that's a recognized learned society, but his books published by the Buddhist Publication Society should be treated with caution, as it's a Buddhist propaganda organization, "promotional" as the guidelines say. The Dalai Lama's writings can obviously be cited in the article about him. Whether they could be cited in the article about Gelugpa depends on whether he is officially the head of it. I did read somewhere that the Ganden Rinpoche is the official head, but this is not my field so that would have to be checked by those who know. I do know there are disputes within the Gelugpa between the Dalai Lama & Kelsang Gyatso, so that article has to be careful about neutrality. Peter jackson 08:53, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
This is a worthwhile area of examination but I think already too fine a line is being drawn. For instance, while the Buddhist Publication Society (BPS) and the Pali Text Society (PTS) can both be deemed "promotional," this is different from saying that either one of them is "propagandizing." Would you call the BPS publication of the Visuddhimagga or the Abhidhammattha Sangaha less scholarly than the PTS publication of the Dhamma-Sangani? Personally, I find that Bhikkhu Bodhi's BPS introductory analysis is better informed than C. A. F. Rhys David's PTS introduction (perhaps the difference that 80 years of scholarship makes), though I respect and am indebted to both greatly. Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 12:44, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
No, I wouldn't, but WP is not supposed to be based on my opinions or yours, it's supposed to be objective. That's what the criteria are for. They say citations should be from publishers with a reputation for fact-checking, so that the source doesn't just represent one man & his dog. PTS is promotional in a literal sense, as its official aim is to foster & promote the study of Pali texts, but that's not what it means. It means that organizations that exist to promote a particular point of view should be treated with special suspicion. PTS is not that, but BPS obviously is. The reason why all this is particularly important is that most religious groups are not centralized monolithic organizations like the Roman Catholic Church with clearly defined official teachings. This is particularly so in the East, where the Western concept of a denomination as something with a central organization doesn't really apply. [1] Buddhist traditions are therefore quite amorphous, including a range of views. Everyone tends to think their view is the real thing, & say so, so their statements that Buddhism/Theravada/... teaches such & such cannot be trusted. Therefore such statements must be backed up by scholars who've studied more widely & objectively. Peter jackson 09:05, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, I think we can agree on a couple of points: your and my opinion should not be taken as guidance for judgment here; traditionally trained Western "scholars" (and it might be worth hammering out a definition of what a "scholar" is) have studied more "widely" (though not necessarily "deeply"), in general, than those not so trained; fact-checking is a good thing.... I'm not sure how fruitful this all is. I suspect you and I (and our dogs?) could find what might be deemed "propaganda" and "factual errors" in both PTS and BPS publications. I think it depends on what kind of information we're talking about — for instance, Buddhist history vs. Buddhist practice — and in regards to what particular text (such as, for instance, T.W.Rhys Davids' seemingly POV article on Buddhism in the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica or anything else). I think most WP readers/editors know to apply critical thinking to all sources and that such is appropriate.
I guess I see two ways of making this thread productive:
(a) Is there a way for us to discuss to what degree "scholarly knowledge" vs. "practice knowledge" have their place in particular WP Buddhism articles?
(b) I'm wondering if there's a particular article or set of articles that precipitated the generalization that started this thread and, if so, might it be worth discussing the particulars of that article (those articles)?
Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 13:06, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
No particular article (to start at the end). I find this sort of thing all over the place, either no citation at all or only one from Buddhist sources. I noted some time ago on the Theravada talk page that nearly all the references were to Buddhist sources. The other day I deleted a couple from the text of the article. One of them described Bhikkhu Bodhi as a Theravada spokesman. Rubbish. There's no such thing as a Theravada spokesman because there's no central organization to appoint one. He could reasonably be called a spokesman for the BPS, as its President, if that's any good, & maybe he's been appointed as spokesman for some other organization, but otherwise he's just one monk among many, with his own opinions.
A particular example on which we may be able to clarify ideas. Most Western books on Buddhism start their explanation of its teachings with the 4 Noble Truths, & this has been adopted in Ceylon, where they teach them to children in Sunday schools. However, the scriptural & traditional approach is that they are an advanced teaching for those who are ready ((New) Penguin Handbook of Living Religions). This is an example where books by Westerners or Westernized orientals can give a quite misleading picture of the tradition.
To stick to Theravada, which I know something about. As I said, there's no central organization. That is, on a permanent basis. There was of course the Sixth Council, but as far as I know that did nothing but recite the scriptures, so we might say they are the only official teaching of Theravada as a whole. Then there are various national organizations. In Burma there is a central organization of some sort, & it recommended U Thittila as a contributor to The Path of the Buddha by Morgan, so that chapter can provisionally be regarded as official Burmese Buddhism (the book also contains similarly official accounts from the largest Zen, Pure Land & Nichiren organizations in Japan). There is a central organization in Thailand, but I suspect there's probably not much of one in Ceylon. In both countries the Western interpretation has been largely adopted by the establishment (see the citation from JIABS I put in Theravada & Pali Canon), so perhaps one can use Western accounts backwards to describe oficial Buddhism there. To go further of course there are all sorts of movements within each country, so there are Westernized Buddhists in Burma & un-Westernized ones in Ceylon & Thailand, and endless individual variations.
So what I'm saying is that it's extremely difficult to find out how widely what some Buddhist writer says is accepted. We need scholars to tell us that. Then we know which articles they belong in. Peter jackson 15:15, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm coming in in the middle of this discussion, but --
- "I think most WP readers/editors know to apply critical thinking to all sources" -- I sure don't see this, myself! IMHO, there are a lot of completely uncritical, credulous people using Wikipedia.
- IMHO "practice knowledge" is not appropriate for Wikipedia, except insofar as quoted as "So-and-so's unverified opinion". The standard for Wikipedia is verifiability, no original research, and reliable sources. Wikipedia:Attribution
- I'm strongly opposed to ruling out the citing of particular persons, publishers or schools across the board. We should consider the inclusion of any assertion on its individual merits. When Joe Crazy-man shouts "Fire!", or says "Lunch is ready now", he may well be right, regardless of what other goofy ideas he has.
-- Writtenonsand 15:16, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I wouldn't suggest ruling anyone out altogether, but things must be looked at in proper context. There are a lot of completely uncritical, credulous people putting material into Wikipedia. we have to try to moderate that with proper checking. Peter jackson 15:39, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Peter, I think in general I can agree with just about everything you've written in your response and, as usual, let me thank for the additional extra information you've provided about Theravada countries. (Perhaps sometime, if not here then on your user page, you could clue us in to your background and how you have accumulated this impressive store of information.) I obviously took umbrage at the general comparison between PTS and BPS -- after all, I use some BPS sources in the articles I've edited/created -- but, realistically, I could see how one could argue your point. The fact that there is so much mayhem occurring on WP Buddhism articles and a real need for our continued contributions, I'm disinclined to disagree with you any further here.
Writtenonsand -- and I really like your user name, by the way, very appropriate for WP -- you are correct on calling me regarding my overly optimistic generalization about critical thinking. A few moments away from the keyboard I regretted writing such, as Peter might say, rubbish. Further, while my choice of the term "practice knowledge" was perhaps a poor choice of wording, I do think what I was alluding to is something real and valuable. While I definitely defer to "scholars" regarding Buddhist history, etc., there are some topics -- for instance, perhaps, practice topics -- that fall outside the scope of most scholarship but have been extensively commented on by some widely recognized "teachers" or "scholar monks," etc. Thus, for instance, in the absence of traditional Western scholarship, I think I've twice resorted to citing publicly available "dharma talks" in one or two articles. If you'd like to explore this further, perhaps as a backburner item, I'd be happy to.
I wish you both the best, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 18:22, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
There is a place for gap-filling. If we have no adequate scholarly information, either because there isn't any or because we haven't come across it, it's perfectly OK to say "One interpretation is ..." or "Some Buddhists believe ..." or "The Dalai Lama says ...", but such qualifying phrases are essential. Peter jackson 11:18, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

From my experience with some of the Buddhism articles, I feel we need to make a clear distinction between two kinds of citations -- the research done by scholars who may not necessarily have experience in any Buddhist tradition, and the views of well-known Buddhists. Not that either of two should be considered right or wrong. But besides knowing what scholars say, it is equally interesting to know views and philosophies are held by the actual Buddhist traditions. Especially when scholars without sufficient experience in Buddhist practice write about Buddhist philosophy and comparison between traditions, it can sometimes be misleading. Of course they can't be ignored, following WP policy regarding sources, but perhaps we could try to distinguish between the two different kinds of perspectices. --Knverma 09:28, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree that in practice scholars often talk nonsense, but then so do Buddhist teachers. I repeat that what the latter say is evidence only of what they themselves teach, unless they are officially appointed spokespeople of particular organizations. WP is supposed to be based on verifiable statements. That means we have to be careful about exactly what we're saying. We can say that the Dalai Lama says such & such & cite his own writings to that effect. But what do we actually mean when we say Buddhism/Theravada/... says something? We can cite scholars to that effect, provisionally, without knowing exactly what it means. But there is something of a hierarchy among scholarly authorities, which can be quite hard to find. The guidelines say the best authorities are publications by universities. Are all universities equal for these purposes? I'd guess not: would WP be required to treat as serious scholarship the publications of fundamentalist universities like Bob Jones, or Indian universities that do degrees in astrology? Again, I'd guess not. According to a recent survey, the best universities are, in order, Harvard, Cambridge & Oxford. I don't know of a general book on Buddhism from Harvard, so the best authorities to start with would be Harvey (Cambridge) & Gethin (Oxford). However, there are other criteria to take into account. Specialization is an important one: the closer the scholar is to the subject, the more they are relying on their own knowledge rather than trying to keep track of other people's research, the better an authority they are. Date is also important of course. Trying to find out whether there is a consensus can be hard. Peter jackson 09:46, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm gonna toss in another two cents, especially because I have been given a little (just a little) more thought to the matter of Bhikkhu Bodhi. If I may be straightforward, the intent of these comments are not meant to be adversarial but exploratory (and hopefully not a complete waste of WP bytes).
Peter, you wrote about Bodhi: "He could reasonably be called a spokesman for the BPS, as its President, if that's any good, & maybe he's been appointed as spokesman for some other organization, but otherwise he's just one monk among many, with his own opinions." I think it is important to also recognize, among other things, that Bodhi has a Ph.D. in philosophy and has also made significant contributions to Buddhist scholarship editing BPS books that even (non-Buddhist?) scholars such as Gethin references. So, how do we place someone like Bodhi or, for another potentially complex example, Trungpa Rinpoche (who studied Comparative Religion at Oxford, etc.) in the hierarchy of scholarship? Perhaps a matrix could be created: publication, author's credentials, year of publication, citations of work in scholarly journals....
Additionally, you've identified a survey that lists the best universities as Harvard, Oxford and Cambridge; can we readily extrapolate from such surveys that these are the best universities for Buddhist scholarship or Buddhist scholarly publications? (Maybe a pointer to this survey would help?)
Also, as others have pointed out, experiential wisdom is important to certain types of Buddhist discourse. For instance, it would make sense to me that someone writing on metta has actually practiced it deeply for a long period of time. Otherwise, they are just intellectually mapping their own words from the words of others which, prima facie, is rife with problems. Thus, for me (yes, launch the rotten tomatoes now), in such a matrix as mentioned above, "exposure to Buddhism" (quality, type), would also seem relevant.
Thanks for any feedback. (Extra points for those who use a non-condescending tone of voice :-) ) Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 16:52, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Bodhi's translations of the Majjhima (actually his revision of Nanamoli) & Samyutta have been issued in private editions by the PTS, which gives them scholarly authority in their own right. There is something in the guidelines about non-peer-reviewed publications by recognized scholars, which would have a lesser authority. Also, it seems to me logical that, if you can find a reputable publication that says that so-and-so gives an accurate account of such-and-such, then you can give the latter as a source, along with the review or whatever. It's true that the best universities overall may not be such in every subject, which adds complications. However, that is not so relevant to what I actually said. In fact neither Harvey nor Gethin is actually stationed at the university that published his book. What WP is about here is peer review. Camridge University Press, for example, sends every proposed book to two experts for comment, and a third if they disagree. The experts need not be at Cambridge. On your last paragraph, WP is about facts, not wisdom. your point about rephrasing is important. The guidelines say statements should be easily verifiable, which I think must mean minimally rephrased, only (ideally) as far as necessary to avoid copyright infringement. Peter jackson 09:16, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi Peter - Thanks for the very prompt, thoughtful and helpful response. Frankly, I'm going to hold off on making future WP edits until I re-read and more fully digest Wikipedia:Attribution, per your pointer. (FWIW, in particular, I want to more fully understand what it says about uses of the Bible and see how that might pertain to our references to and quotes from the Pali Canon.)
If I may, the only part of your response with which I personally have any intuitive reluctance is the use of the word "fact." Hoping you don't mind if I wordsmith a wee, I think a phrase along the lines of "documenting contemporary scholarly consensus" might be more accurate. (For instance, to use a classic non-Buddhist example, a circa 1900 A.D. WP article on physics would document Newtonian physics not the writings of then-patent-officer Einstein, though the latter would be closer to the facts at hand.) I think both the effort to capture scholarly consensus and what we've momentarily referred to as "experiential wisdom" are both efforts to write down "the truth." Regardless, as you have very appropriately and repeatedly maintained, this is the WP playground, the rules are posted on the fence, and if one wants to play here they need to abide by the rules. Thanks again for your clarity and persistence regarding this.
Best wishes, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 12:18, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree that the use of the term fact is odd, but that seems to be the WP usage. What the attribution page says about the Bible doesn't seem to be thought out: it treats the gospels as an unquestioned record of the words of Jesus, and only raises questions as to the interpretation. This is inappropriate there & even more so for the Pali Canon. We mustn't say that the Buddha said such-and-such, because there's no scholarly consensus. We might sometimes say that most scholars think he said something of the sort, but that would have to be checked. Apart from this, the interpretation question is important too. People tend to quote passages from the Pali canon (or the Bible) that seem to fit their own ideas. Peter jackson 10:08, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Solely for the sake of precision, the proposed-policy article Wikipedia:Attribution states:

...How reliable a source is depends on context. In general, the most reliable sources are books and journals published by universities; mainstream newspapers; and magazines and journals that are published by known publishing houses....

For me, in our on-going discussion here, the phrases "depends on context" and "in general" are important. For example, year of publication (e.g., in regards to an academic publication) and scholarly citations (e.g., in regards to a non-academic publication) could be relevant to assessing a publication's reliability. I think it is useful to keep in mind the general rules (secondary sources, university presses, etc.) but it is also in the best interest of Wikipedia to thoughtfully use other sources.

In the end, I don't think what I write here is necessarily at odds with what Peter has written, for instance, Peter, when you wrote:

"Thus Nanamoli's books published by the Pali Text Society are proper sources to cite, because that's a recognized learned society, but his books published by the Buddhist Publication Society should be treated with caution, as it's a Buddhist propaganda organization, 'promotional' as the guidelines say."

I think my choice of words would have been significantly different (as indicated above) but, ultimately, in general, I think we could likely reach agreement on what sources are "reliable" and/or appropriately contextualized for a particular article. (Is this my unfounded optimism rearing its head again?)

Tangentially, Peter (and others), I'm honestly wondering about publications such as Nanamoli's Visuddhimagga in terms of to what degree it is a "(translated) primary source" and to what degree it is a "secondary source." Do you have a take on this? Thanks, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 17:06, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

There are two different questions here. First, is it an authoritative translation? In that particular case, it does not derive authority from its publishers, but a number of scholars speak favourably of it in reputable publications, which gives it indirect authority. In theory, such reviews should be cited along with any citation of the translation. The other is, how authoritative is the text? There's an old saying that you can prove anything from the Bible, and this would apply to Buddhist scriptures as well. We should be wary of picking quotations out of them & saying Budhism teaches this. In a sense this may be so, but it can be very misleading out of context. On the actual terminology of primary & secondary sources in the WP sense, I assume that any book would be primary evidence of the beliefs of its author, so one could cite the Visuddhimagga for Buddhaghosa, but not the scriptures for the Buddha as their authorship is uncertain. Peter jackson 10:52, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Excellent points. Thanks for the additional analysis. If I may ask another set of related questions: How does one ascertain the "editorial oversight or fact-checking policy" (to use a phrase from Wikipedia:Attribution) of a publisher such as PTS or BPS? Do we simply write the publisher and trust their response or are there superior/alternative methods? Thanks again, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 11:49, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Good question. It strikes me that finding out whether a source has a reputation for checking might often be as difficult as actually checking the facts in the first place, if not more so. Does the fact that X has a reputation for fact checking appear in a reputable source itself? If so, what about that one ... ? Peter jackson 15:16, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
:-) FWIW, I posted a query about this on the WP:ATT talk page. Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 16:09, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Transliteration

I'd like to remind people that many computers will not display some of the diacritic letters used for Pali and Sanskrit. Therefore I recommend both pointed and unpointed versions be given at first occurrence. For a different reason we should give both Pinyin & WG, & preferably tones & characters as well. As an aside, is it correct for us to be using Pinyin as primary? Last I heard most scholars used WG, but it's not my field so I may be out of date. Peter jackson 09:30, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Prebish & Keown (Introducing Buddhism) say specialists have adopted Pinyin, which answers my aside. Peter jackson 10:25, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Monastic naming conventions

Just to draw attention to a problem. In Burma, a monk may have various names. Thus Nanabhivamsa, Maha Dhamma Kyinthan & (1st) Maungdaung Sayadaw are the same. Peter jackson 09:33, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Creating a guideline that applies to all religous articles

Please discuss this in a discussion here--Sefringle 03:20, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Mandarava

Hello. I recently found Mandarava in the backlog of uncategorized articles. As I don't know anything about Buddhism, I'm afraid the categories I put might be incorrect and I'd appreciate it if someone from the project could take a look. Thanks. Pascal.Tesson 23:03, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

New project proposal

There is a new WikiProject task force proposal at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Inter-religious content that is being proposed to deal specifically with articles whose content relates to several religious traditions. Any editors interested in joining such a group would be more than welcome to indicate their interest there. John Carter 15:06, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Pali names for disciples

Hi there. I think we should change to using Pali for the names of the Buddha's disciples, such as Sariputta, Mahamoggallana instead of Sanskrit. I believe this is appropraite, because Theravada seems to put a lot more emphasis on the disciples of the Buddha and their ineractions with the Buddha, rather than eg, Mahayana, which focuses more on Avalokiteshvara, Ksitigarbha, among other things. And since Theravada used Pali, I would recommend Pali. I tend to find that Mahayana books tend not to discuss the disciples as much, so Pali usage seems predominant. Comments? Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:33, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

That's a good point. As I undersand it, WP policy is to use the form commonest in English. Given the point you make, that might well be Pali. Peter jackson 10:26, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
I am undecided and on the fence. It seems to me that the convention in speaking about Buddhism in English is to use Sanskrit, unless the subject is associated very strongly in with Theravada to the exclusion of Mahayana. But the names of the major disciples seem to be a borderline case, since they clearly have a more central position in Theravada thought, but, on the other hand, they are not absent from Mahayana, either. Some are more important in Mahayana than others, too. I find it difficult to reach a clear conclusion.—Nat Krause(Talk!·What have I done?) 03:58, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Improving article

Eastern religion is currently being improved. Please help bring this central topic article up to standard. Vassyana 03:55, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Buddhist ethics

The Buddhist ethics article is in very rough shape; it needs to be rewritten by someone with enough background in the topic to give it some sort of focus, not to mention the fact that it is missing a lot of references and occasionally doing a poor job of identifying when different branches of Buddhism are in disagreement over a topic. Any additions and clarifications would be an improvement. --Clay Collier 23:12, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

"Mythology" a point-of-view?

I have listed the following articles from the "Buddhist Mythology category" at: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Religion#List_of_articles_where_mythology_cats_are_potentially_problematic

  • Shambhala - because this kingdom is mentioned in the Tantras, sacred scriptures to some sects of Buddhism with many devout believers. Scholars may disagree as to its historic identity, but since we are not supposed to side with one POV against another, we should distinguish between sacred scriptures that significant numbers believe in, and "mythology" which is not neutral when applied to current beliefs of any given world view. "Mythology" should be reserved for writings that are no longer widely believed in the world by anyone, like the works of Greek or Norse mythology.
  • Kinnara - again, this is mentioned in the Lotus Sutra, a sacred text to millions of people, and is part of the belief structure of some sects of Buddhism, whether we like it or not. Thus, we should avoid sticking a pejorative label on it like "mythology", because that is a POV not shared by those who have this belief. Regards, Blockinblox 13:55, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Nīlakantha dhāranī

I've just revised The Great Compassion Mantra, can someone go and check it. Blind Man Walking 01:50, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Laszlo Forizs

Laszlo Forizs, a Hungarian translator of Buddhist literature, is up for deletion: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Laszlo Forizs. The AfD could possibly use expertise from someone familiar with Buddhism, since many of us already participating in the discussion there are far from expert on the topic.

On a related note, have you considered setting up and watching a Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting page for Buddhism? The other major religions have one and it would be a convenient place to leave such notifications. On the other hand, I don't think it would do much good for it to be set up by a disinterested outsider such as myself, and possibly Buddhism attracts few enough AfDs that it wouldn't be worth your time...just a suggestion, anyway. —David Eppstein 05:18, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Zen merger

It was proposed in September 2006 that Zen Teacher/Zen Master be merged into Zen, but no discussion was made of it. If you are interested, please discuss here. JohnnyMrNinja 17:55, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Greco-Buddhism FAR

Greco-Buddhism has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here..Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:06, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Pinyin

According to the general WP guidelines, names of articles should follow the common English-language usage. This will not necessarily be Pinyin. Peter jackson 16:42, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Bodhi

I know I'm not in the project, but it seems like Bodhi should be rated as start class. --MKnight9989 13:36, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dharmic religion

See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dharmic religion and Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_September_2#Category:Dharmic_religions . You may be interested to vote or leave your comments there. Andries 17:45, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Buddhism and Hinduism

I'd like to get some more eyes and brains involved in this article- there are a number of problems with it regarding accurately depicting the variety of perspectives on the relationship between Buddhism & and Hinduism, as well as a recent dispute over how to incorporate views of Buddhism that emphasize its decent from the Hindu tradition. Myself, Arrow740, and Rebel XTi have been going round and round for a bit, and I believe we're at the point where repeated reverting is blocking progress on the article. --Clay Collier 08:37, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Assessment

I am in the process of trying to assess many of the articles relating to Buddhism, and at least placing the banners on the others. I have also followed the procedure I have seen elsewhere where any article which is linked to as "see also: X" in the main Buddhism article is accorded "Top" importance to the project. I think the way importance is indicated on the Wikipedia:WikiProject Germany/Assessment page might work here as well. In any event it would probably be a good idea if a more knowledgable member of the project were to try to maybe finish the "Top" and "High" importance categories. Also, I was wondering whether, given the widely disparate nature of many of the types of Buddhism, whether it might be a good idea to create specific task forces which related to the larger "groupings" in Buddhism. Anyway, just letting you know. John Carter 20:10, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for all your efforts in this neglected area of Buddhism on WP, John. It looks like the Wikiproject Buddhism template does not currently display importance assessments- if someone out there is a Template markup guru and wants to adapt the current template, it would make it easier to see at a glance how articles are being assessed. --Clay Collier 21:36, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
I've at least placed the project tag on all the articles. Unfortunately, there were several articles that seemed to me to fall on the Stub-Start or Start-B borderline, or were such that I personally didn't know enough about them one way or another to even attempt an assessment. In those cases, they weren't assessed. Many of these articles are on the Start-B cusp, and it might be worth the effort of a more informed member of the project to take a shot at assessing them. John Carter 14:06, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Anthologies

These should be listed in the narrowest appropriate article (see how I've done it in Pali Canon). This means everything occurs just once, avoiding clutter, & also avoids the necessity for personal opinions on which books are good/useful/important/..., so is NPOV. Peter jackson 08:46, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Prayer in Buddhism

IMHO the article on Prayer, section Buddhism [2], while not bad, could use some tweaking. I believe that others are more competent to do this work than I am. -- 201.19.77.39 09:57, 28 September 2007 (UTC)


Added link to to Samanera in the article Shramana. Merge?

I added a "See also" link to Samanera in the article Shramana. We may want to merge Samanera into Shramana. Discussion? -- 201.19.77.39 13:03, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

They're not the same thing. A samanera is a Buddhist novice, not a full monk. A shramana is roughly any Indian monk-type person of any religion. Peter jackson 08:47, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Agree with Peter, no merge. Greetings, Sacca 09:33, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for clarification. -- 201.19.77.39 13:05, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Bhikkhu needs more info about Theravada and Mahayana

Bhikkhu currently has a good deal of information about the Vajrayana, and little about the Theravada and (other) Mahayana. -- 201.19.77.39 13:46, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Early Buddhism

I know of the following scholarly theories:

  • standard model, followed by most scholars: Buddhism started off unified, but split into 2 schools in the 4th or 3rd century BC, & later into more; large overlap of vinaya & sutta between schools largely due to inheritance from early period; for the early period i know of 2 subtheories:
    • Gombrich & a few others[3]: the above shared material is substantially the teaching of the Buddha
    • Nakamura (Indian Buddhism, Hirakata City, Japan, 1980; reprinted Motilal Banarsidass, Delhi, 1987, 1989), Ui & some other Japanese, & perhaps some Westerners (? Gomez, Vetter, Bronkhorst): Atthaka, Parayana & little or nothing else go back to the Buddha's lifetime; after his death Buddhism evolved into "fairly different" form found in shared material above
  • Schopen (Journal of the Pali Text Society, vol XVI, p 105) argues that the standard model is roughly the opposite of the truth: in fact, he argues, Buddhism started off extremely diverse & was gradually levelled off over centuries, eventually coalescing into a small number of fairly similar organized schools (apparently in the 2nd century AD, though he doesn't say so explicitly)

So lots of stuff in lots of articles is theory, not fact. Also, the concept of POV fork may be relevant. Peter jackson 10:48, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Conversion

I am curious about conversions to Buddhism. From what I hear, there are no conversions. One simply chooses to believe, and to follow the path the philosophy sets out, and is therefore a Buddhist. I am curious if this is true, and how it plays out across the various branches of Buddhism. This could be a great thing to include in the Buddhism article, or elsewhere. Thanks. LordAmeth 22:13, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

In what way does that differ from conversion? Peter jackson 09:57, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
It differs in the sense that the Abrahamic religions, and likely many others, require formal conversion ceremonies, and can have pretty serious requirements attached to them. One does not become a Jew or a Christian or a Muslim by simply waking up one day and deciding that one now believes in X, Y, and Z; one has to speak with the priest, minister, rabbi, or imam and go through a whole series of steps towards formally officially becoming a member of that faith. This is why I ask about Buddhist conversion practices - are there rituals? are there requirements that must be fulfilled before being considered a member of the faith? do these differ by sect/branch, or by country? ... It would be an interesting thing to add to the article if there is anything to it. LordAmeth 22:26, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
There is aritual of taking the refuges, which is in the Buddhism article. Peter jackson 10:24, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
To become a buddhist in Theravada tradition requires: undertaking the 5 precepts, and taking the tree refuges (refuge in the three jewels). Then, one is a follower of Buddha's Dhamma. The Mahayana tradition requires additional things, I don't know exactly what, but in early Buddhism it's quite simple. Undertaking this little ceremony can be done in 5 minutes, and the ceremony itself is not terribly important, in the end one's actions are much more important. Many Buddhists cannot handle the 5 precepts, it's too difficult for them so they do only 3 or 4 (no alcohol, no lying are most difficult for many) but they still regard themselves as Buddhists. Greetings, Sacca 09:40, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
FWIW, Upasaka#Initiation_ceremonies has some new, sparse information, based on Kariyawasam's 1995 text on contemporary Sinhala rituals[4] - Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 16:41, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

"8 main Bodhisattva-disciples of Buddha Shakyamuni"?

Snowlion gives a quote from Rudy Harderwijk, The Four Dignities, "Sometimes the throne of a Buddha is depicted with eight Snowlions on it, in this case, they represent the 8 main Bodhisattva-disciples of Buddha Shakyamuni, the historical Buddha." Are the "8 main Bodhisattva-disciples of Buddha Shakyamuni" listed anywhere on Wikipedia? -- Writtenonsand 14:35, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Help sought on identifying statues

I've added these five images of Seattle's Kadampa Buddhist Temple to Commons, but I don't know enough to definitively identify any of the statues except the one of the Buddha. If someone can help out, please do. Just edit the descriptions on Commons directly, no need to reply here (although here would be a good place to discuss if you have guesses but don't know definitively, or conversely if you can say you've got it covered.) Thanks in advance. - Jmabel | Talk 05:06, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

This is an NKT temple? They are a bit different and have different stuff. Image 1 is one of the Taras (think green), Gautama Buddha and Chenrezig. From the yellow hats in 3 I guess they are connected with the Gelug school - maybe Je Tsongkhapa. I think Image 2 may be Dorje Shugden (looking at the images here) which would fit with them being the NKT. I have no idea what the other statues in 2 are. Secretlondon (talk) 23:48, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Contributions that have quoted rather than re-writing

With Larry’s permission, I’m posting here is a dialogue from our Talk pages. Feel free to join in.Dhammapal 05:55, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi Larry,

I just went through all my contributions and made a list of cases where I have quoted instead of re-writing. <snip>

Bhikkhu Bodhi: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upeksa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics_in_religion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacca http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nekkhamma http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism

Thanissaro Bhikkhu Paragraph beginning with “Karma really is happening…” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma_in_Buddhism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honesty#Buddhist_teachings_on_honesty http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia#Dharmic_Religions

Hellmuth Hecker http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ananda

Miscellaneous http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditation http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sangha http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_Eightfold_Path http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddha

A huge amount of work to re-write! A bit overwhelming. Maybe I should check with John Bullitt first about whether it might be OK to quote on Wikipedia.

with metta Dhammapal 21:55, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi Dhammapal -

Your intentions are obviously good-hearted and your goal — spreading the Dhamma — is the highest. These are the most important things, at least in my mind.

As for the technical issues, I'll try to look at the items you listed and see if I can help with some re-write/summarizing/paraphrasing in the next few days. If you don't want to wait that long or just are inclined to do something first, you can always just put quote marks around the material you word-for-word copied and then add a reference to the website/text from which you took the quotes. In other words, as long as you indicate the material is a direct word-for-word quote (by placing the material in quotes) and then add an appropriate citation (e.g., author, year [if available], text title and, if appropriate, web site) then there's nothing wrong. (There is some rule about not quoting extensively from a text; I'm not sure what exactly the rule is but I get the impression that one should not take more than two or three long paragraphs ["blockquotes"] from any source.) So while, stylistically, its preferable to summarize/paraphrase, the use of quote marks and appropriate citations is legally acceptable, to the best of my understanding (and decades of doing such).

I hope this helps. If I get more time later tonight or tomorrow, I'ld like to discuss with you further the skillful facts/presentation distinction you wrote about. I think you are right on target and it might be of benefit if we just discuss it a wee more.

I wish you much happiness,
Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 23:03, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi Dhammapal -
FWIW, over the next hour or so, I'll do a quick review of the WP articles you've identified and attempt to prioritize them in terms of which ones should possibly be addressed first. In doing such, I'll place them in different categories based on to what degree they:
  • currently include a citation (e.g., in an end note)
  • are currently in quote marks (indicating a word-for-word copy)
  • currently make up a significant part of the WP article
Frankly, if the material that was copied does include a citation, is imbedded in marks and does not make up a significant portion of an article, then I'm not sure any action is imperative. (For an example of such a WP article, see the current Upeksa article [which, frankly, I modified in June] — although this article can certainly use expansion!)
Text lacking citations AND quote marks AND comprising a significant amount of a WP article:
Text having citations but lacking quote marks:
Text having citations and quote marks but comprising a majority of an article or Buddhist section or being an excessively large quote:
Text that includes a citation, quote marks and does not make up the majority of an article:
Article(s) you've mentioned where I don't see significant text inserted by you:
As time allows, I'll try to look over these (in particular the first eight identified articles), starting at the top, and see if I can help with appropriate changes. (I have to state up front that I am lousy at writing "simple English" — my brain simply is not wired to speak simply; I admit its a deficit.) As we modify the above articles, perhaps we can track the changes here (e.g., simply indicate below or above that an identified article has been changed).
With metta, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 01:04, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi Dhammapal -

I just completed significant changes to simple:Meditation#Buddhist Meditation -- a significant re-write. Assuming my changes do not get reverted, I strongly believe that that article is now fine (at least in terms of copy-violation concerns). (Please make any changes to my re-write that you think are appropriate, of course. I am not attached to what I wrote there.) I'll cross it off our list above.

Best wishes,
Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 02:48, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi Dhammapal -
I've taken a look at the simple:Buddha article and I see you've added two paragraphs:
The important thing is that the Buddha was perfectly enlightened. His mind was completely at peace - completely free of any form of sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair; any form of selfishness or greed or craving or attachment; any form of ill-will, resentment, aversion, hurt feelings, righteous indignation; any form of delusion or ignorance which could lead to doubt and confusion; any form of conceit or any conceiving of a self. His mind was perfectly at peace, abiding in complete knowledge of reality.
If one studies the Buddhist scriptures one will see the Buddha's compassion. He taught the Dhamma to those who wanted to listen, he taught for the sake of their benefit and wellbeing. He wanted to help the listeners and did not want any misfortune to occur to them, no matter who they were. Even shortly before his final passing away he still taught the Dhamma to Subhadda who became the last disciple in the presence of the Buddha himself. This clearly shows his great compassion
The second paragraph appears to be from http://islamnatural.com/buddhist.htm. But I'm having trouble identifying the source of the first paragraph. I see elsewhere you've added "(K.Sujin)" to the first paragraph -- is he perhaps the author? perhaps in printed text? Also did I perhaps miss other verbatim material added to this article? I just ask these various questions because it would help me to know what was taken word-for-word and what was not.
I think I'm going to take a break from this right now, at least until I hear back from you. I hope you are doing well, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 03:35, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Hi Larry,
What a detailed response! Sadhu! You deserve a well-earned break!
The carpet is being laid but my Dad has kindly moved my computer to another room so I’ll still be online.
Could we move your post onto a discussion page so that we don’t have to go back and forth between our UserTalk pages, and also other people can listen in and contribute?
What about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Buddhism
Thankyou for your confidence that my intentions have been good in my dealings with Wikipedia, particularly Simple English version. I hope my breaking the copyright rules won’t jeopardize my account with Wikipedia. I thought Wikipedia was for free distribution. I have no excuse for not giving citations for some of my favorite Simple English contributions. At least I have documented my contributions now. I’ll take the risk that my work (opps – not my work <smile>) may be deleted.
I’ll try to practice restraint in the future.
With metta Dhammapal 04:59, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Hi Dhammapal -
Feel free to move our discussion to wherever you feel most comfortable.
Frankly, I would not worry that any of this might jeopardize your account, etc. You did something in good faith, now understand that it is not appropriate for WP, and are actively pursuing correcting the situation. Moreover, at this time, each of the articles you have impacted either have a significant amount of other material, or the material that was copied is somehow cited or marked as being a quoted from elsewhere. (The only time I've seen such copying to require administrative action is when an entire article is copied word-for-word from another source with a non-GFDL-compatible license or conditions, as we have seen recently.)
Tangentially, if you could better identify the source of the simple:Buddha material (as I requested above in the immediately preceding post), I'd appreciate it.
I hope you, your family and your home are doing well. With metta, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 05:18, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi Dhammapal -

Given the above situation, I've been tinkering around Simple English (e.g., created simple:Template:Buddhism) and saw that you've made significant changes to simple:Buddha and simple:Noble Eightfold Path, addressing the concerns stated above. So, hoping you don't mind, I'll simply cross them off the above to-do list. Good work on your part. Also, I'd like to draw other WP Buddhism editors attention here to the fact that Simple English WP Buddhism can desperately use your help!!! (For instance, start with simple:Category:Buddhism or simple:Template:Buddhism and check out the linked articles -- many core articles are just a few lines long!) Thanks so much, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 18:50, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi Larry,
The simple:Noble Eightfold Path article has temporarily been made a stub, without even a list of the eight path factors. I am also stumped regarding the simple:Sangha page. I only have a children's atlas which has a picture of monks on almsround.Dhammapal 07:34, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
I significantly wordsmithed, added references & an old image to simple:Sangha so I believe it is, in a extremely rudimentary way, acceptable at this time. I'll cross it off the above list. Please let me know if you disagree. Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 22:13, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Well, regrettably, I have nothing comparable to Thanissaro Bhikkhu's eloquence or (obviously) knowledge, but I tried to wordsmith and slightly expand upon the two or three non-consecutive sentences that had been copied from his Parajika (at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/bmc1/ch04.html). So I'll cross off the Euthanasia section (newly renamed Euthanasia#Buddhism) from the above list. Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 02:04, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Hi Dhammapal - taking a cue from your own corrective actions, I've simply deleted the potentially problemmatic text from Ananda, copying them to Talk:Ananda for others to consider for possible more-appropriate future use. With metta, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 03:35, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi Larry – simple:Sangha looks great. There is an enhanced edition about Ananda in print that I’ll read once the carpet has been laid. I deleted a lengthy paragraph you posted in Euthanasia and posted a short quote by Thanissaro Bhikkhu from an article about Compassion for the dying at Access to Insight. I hope you find the changes acceptable. Regards Dhammapal 04:04, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

In the Ethics in religion article, I reduced the multiple paragraphs taken from Bodhi (1994) to one blockquote and provided more general well-known information citing other sources; thus, I'm crossing this to-do off the list. Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 18:16, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
In the Sacca article, the Bodhi (1999) blockquote now takes up less than half the main text. I've expanded the article to mention sacca in terms of the Four Noble Truths (ariya-sacca) and have pulled material from Peter Harvey, Rhys Davids' PTS PED and ATI's John Bullitt. While the Bodhi quote still is large (especially given that his writing is neither canonical nor post-canonical nor otherwise embraced as part of traditional texts), it is at the very end of the article and is, I believe, overshadowed by other material. So, I'm going to cross it off the above list.
While, for reasons of style and scholasticism, it would be beneficial to perhaps expand or clean-up the copied (cited and offset) material from the non-crossed-off articles above, I personally do not assess the copied material in those articles as seriously posing a possible copyvio or GDFL-compliancy concern. So, I will no longer pursue work on the above list at this time. Best wishes, Larry Rosenfeld (talk) 19:12, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Chagdud Tulku Rinpoche needs your help

IMHO the article Chagdud Tulku Rinpoche is quite good but can be improved to "even better".

1) Article needs specific cites for various statements.
2) We could use stub articles for many redlinks relating to Tibetan Buddhism.
3) Article contains various "peacock terms" which need to be made NPOV.
4) Article contains several assertions of more-or-less miraculous events which need to be carefully cited and phrased in a NPOV style.
5) Article may be slightly more detailed than is necessary / appropriate for Wikipedia.

Thanks. -- Writtenonsand 00:08, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I think the main issue is that it needs sources unconnected to the subject. Secretlondon (talk) 01:08, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Empowerment in Tibetan Buddhism

I recently edited the article Chagdud Tulku Rinpoche and I see that we need an article on the concept of "empowerment" in Tibetan Buddhism. (E.g., "he received the Rinchen Tangyud empowerments", "Jangchub Dorje gave him empowerments for the Red Tara cycle".) I personally have no idea what this term means, and would like very much to know. The existing article Empowerment is no help at all. I don't even know what would be the best title for our new article. Can anybody start a stub on this? Thanks. -- Writtenonsand 13:54, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Wang (Tibetan Buddhism)??? -- Writtenonsand 01:02, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes I started that a couple of days ago. Lung is another part of it. Our articles on Tibetan Buddhist practice are not very good currently. Secretlondon 01:41, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Empowerments give someone permission to perform a certain tantric ritual. Secretlondon 01:42, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


Religion_and_sexuality#Buddhism_and_sexuality

Religion_and_sexuality#Buddhism_and_sexuality could use review and possible cleanup. -- Writtenonsand (talk) 22:53, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Criticism of Buddhism needed: Requested article: Only major religion without a "criticism" page.

We need an article at Criticism of Buddhism parallel to those on all other major religions. Criticism of Buddhism currently has no content and formerly simply redirected to the general article Criticism of religion. Maybe not everybody will be interested in working on this, but IMHO if any religion would be comfortable with NPOV self-criticism, it would be Buddhism.  :-) -- Writtenonsand (talk) 13:50, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

See also comments at Talk:Criticism_of_religion#Criticism_of_Buddhism -- Writtenonsand (talk) 17:07, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requested_articles/Culture_and_fine_arts#Buddhism

Anybody who doesn't currently do so should check on Wikipedia:Requested_articles/Culture_and_fine_arts#Buddhism from time to time. We should be trying to create redirects for the easy and mis-spelled ones, and the people of this WikiProject are obviously the ones more likely to have a handle on the tough ones. -- Writtenonsand (talk) 13:57, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Three marks of existence needs your help

Three marks of existence needs some work.

  • Could use some general cleanup.
  • Has no cites! - "Unverifiable material may be challenged and removed."

According to our infobox, the Three Marks of Existence is a "Key Concept" of Buddhism.
And now I see that "Key Concept" links to Buddhist terms and concepts, but that article does not mention Three marks of existence!!
-- Writtenonsand (talk) 22:30, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Merger proposal between Indian religion, Eastern religion, and Eastern philosophy

I have proposed a merge of these three articles. Please see Talk:Eastern philosophy#Merger proposal. Zenwhat (talk) 01:45, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Notability

I don't think every Zen Centre in the world is notable - agree? Loads have been added to Wikipedia:WikiProject_Buddhism/Requested_articles, which also seems to duplicate things in the to-do list at the bottom of the project page. Secretlondon (talk) 23:40, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Per WP:ORG, a Zen Center or other temple would only be notable if it is nationally/internationally recognized (such as Hsi Lai Temple in Hacienda Heights, and/or written about in reliable third-party sources (San Francisco Zen Center. Chapters of an umbrella organization at best warrant a mention in an article on the association or denomination. I was wondering about things like some of the Pure Land churches in California that have histories going back over 100 years- some of them have been recognized as 'the oldest' this or that in an area and have some history associated with them- the San Jose Buddhist Church in San Jose's Japantown might fall into this category. As a general rule though, random centers, practice groups, temples, etc., probably wouldn't pass muster, as very few of them have anything written about them. --Clay Collier (talk) 00:23, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
Generally, yes, we don't need an article on each Buddhist center in the western world. There's no need to proliferate them. That said, a lot of such centers have some sort of marginal claim to fame, viz "one of the first Xs in such-and-such area", or "the first major X is such-and-such area". So, I can see where there would be a good number of marginal cases. A more specific problem is that very few such Buddhist groups have anything written about them in reliable sources, which makes it difficult for us to write about them even if they are deemed notable. That said, I would feel like the grinch trying to delete an article with well-written information about a regionally-important center.—Nat Krause(Talk!·What have I done?) 20:01, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Please vote on how to name the Buddha (general) article

There was a vote and move last fall already, but afterwards we had a very constructive discussion in which we gathered many more facts, and the name Buddha (general) looks less desirable now. We feel it is time to vote again, and we want this to be the final vote, so please take a look at the Talk:Buddha (general)#Table of options, which lists the results of our discussion in a nutshell. — Sebastian 07:44, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Kate Moss

I see that the article on Kate is included in this project. Is that accurate? Wwwhatsup (talk) 16:51, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and removed the tag. Wwwhatsup (talk) 15:39, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Losar

Halo! Losar is currenting happening, how may I ensure that it is flagged as a current event? Is there a News Wiki article that this Wikipedia article can interwiki? How may I progress this? Is there anything else you recommend?
Blessings in the mindstream
B9 hummingbird hovering (talk • contribs) 05:52, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Brahmajala sutta \ Brahmajala sutra

Can somebody fix this? I'm not particularly knowledgeable, so I'm not exactly sure what should be done.

With the edits I've done to it already, I probably screwed something up, somewhere. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 21:29, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

There are 2 different texts:

  • Brahmajala Sutta, in Pali; there are or were versions of this in other languages, including a Sanskrit version called Brahmajala Sutra
  • Fanwang Jing, in Chinese, purporting to be a translation from a Sanskrit text called Brahmajala Sutra, a claim rejected by scholars

These 2 texts have no relation to each other. I hope this information will help people sort out what to do with the articles. Peter jackson (talk) 11:23, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I've tried to rectify some of the worst muddle here, but I suggest:

Peter jackson (talk) 16:29, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Zen Buddhism in the United States

I am looking for editors to come to my sandbox at User:Mind meal/Sandbox26 to collaborate on creating a first-class article on Zen Buddhism in the United States. Interested parties can contact me on my talk page. I would like to see a group of research-oriented editors come aboard. I think it may work best if various editors focus on one particular dimension of Zen in America (always backed by references) and we can add various sections, come up with section titles, and eventually bring the article to "completion." While this is a labor of love for me, I fear it will take eons to get the article right alone. With the help of other editors, however, we can make progress much faster. Please contact me before starting to edit my sandbox. I want to know the members I am working with before doing so. Thank you. (Mind meal (talk) 19:12, 10 February 2008 (UTC))

Tantras

This article has a tag indicating its affiliation to this project, but is almost entirely about Hindu tantras, with only a few passing references to Buddhist ones. Peter jackson (talk) 12:02, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Thoughtform

This article, which appears to relate to the concept of "tulpa" in Tibetan Buddhism has been mentioned on the Fringe Theories noticeboard and is tagged for multiple issues. It seems to me that good sources are an urgent priority for it. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:27, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Every Zen Center/temple in the world?

I ran across Zen Center of Syracuse and tagged it for speedy deletion for failing to provide any claims of notability. The creator of the article says that WikiProject Buddhism is planning on creating an article on every Zen Center and temple in the world. Please don't. Every temple in the world is no more notable than every Christian church in the world. Existence is not notability. Corvus cornixtalk 23:31, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

It would appear that the creator is referencing this list of possible articles. I must say, it is stupidly exhaustive. If each and every one of those Zen Centres can assert it's own notability, then go ahead. If not, then I echo Corvux cornix: please don't. TalkIslander 00:44, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
There was a discussion on just this subject that is now on the archive page. The consensus was not to add temples or centers that did not have specific claims of notability. --Clay Collier (talk) 02:09, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
The list referred to by Islander was never meant to provide justification for single articles for each center. That article, Zen Buddhism in the United States, is far away from completion and I merely included them all so that I would know possible areas to research. I linked them all on the chance that some would be deserving of their own article, providing a quick way to start the article(s) off. Incidentally, The Zen Center of Syracuse is, imo, notable enough for inclusion on Wikipedia. Being that it is led by the first female Rinzai roshi in the USA and is now well referenced, there is no reason this article should face deletion. (Mind meal (talk) 05:56, 7 March 2008 (UTC))

Help Needed: Thoughtform et. al.

There are a number of articles being discussed on the Fringe Theory Noticeboard that could use the attention of someone who is well-versed in Tibetan Buddhism. The articles, most by a single author, appear to mix Tibetan Buddhist, theosophist, and new-age ideas in a way that makes it quite difficult to tell what is going on, and whether or not the entire business is just original research, or actually has a kernel of factual content to it. There are some basic questions about whether or not something is a legitimate/common translation of some terms used in Tibetan Buddhism. --Clay Collier (talk) 02:09, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh, jesus. Could you tell me who this person is? Send me a message on my talkpage. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 18:51, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Monkey mind.

I created this article Monkey mind.

If anyone could expand this article with any information you know of -- the historical development of the term, its use in various literature, etc.., that would be great.

Also, I need to know the Japanese for this term. I know it is shin'en-iba, but I don't know what the Japanese kanji is.

Thanks! ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 18:50, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

AFD of List of Zen centers in the United States

There is currently a motion to delete List of Zen centers in the United States at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Zen centers in the United States. Interested parties are welcome to vote. (Mind meal (talk) 09:30, 8 March 2008 (UTC))

Expand {{Infobox church/sandbox}} to cover all places of worship?

There is a proposal to convert the draft infobox template {{Infobox church/sandbox}} into a template that can be used for all places of worship. We would like your views on whether you think this is a good idea, and if you are able to help identify parameters that would be relevant to the religion that your WikiProject deals with. Do join the discussion taking place at "Template talk:Infobox church". — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 03:39, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Mindstream. Neologism / Original research?

Per article Mindstream. I haven't encountered this term before, and I don't find any independent sources online that use it with the same meaning as this article.
Can we produce any cites to show that this term is not a neologism (Wikipedia:Avoid neologisms) or original research (Wikipedia:No original research)?
-- Writtenonsand (talk) 20:14, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

The term pops up a lot on Google. [5] On Buddhanet, the term is used as well. [6] In discussions with Buddhists, I've heard this term before, though it's mostly used by Tibetan Buddhists. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 22:23, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Naming conventions

The link is to an inactive page. Should it still be here? Peter jackson (talk) 11:12, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Tibet Collaboration

Would anyone be interested in starting a WikiProject Tibet collaboration project? I think with a bit of devoted effort we could bring an article to Featured Article status once every two months or so. I would suggest that, given the current unrest in the region, that we start with a relatively non-controversial topic. I propose Trisong Detsen. Who's with me? --Gimme danger (talk) 06:13, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I'd be interested. Don't have any source material for that particular person, but I'm happy to help with copy editing or other things. --Clay Collier (talk) 00:46, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Thank you! Right now several editors are working on improving History of Tibet, which is in quite a state of disrepair and could use even a cursory copyedit. I'm waiting for some sort of response before going ahead and creating a collaboration page, and you're the only one who's responded so far. --Gimme danger (talk) 23:12, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Subprojects for Mahayana, Tibetan and Vajrayana Buddhism

Considering that the three subjects above each have a separate portal devoted to them, would it make sense to create subprojects dealing specifically with those Buddhist traditions? John Carter (talk) 22:56, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

What benefit would this provide, exactly? Also, the portals that you mentioned were mostly the work of one user, and it's not clear that they are active or being maintained. --Clay Collier (talk) 00:22, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, it would allow those individuals who are primarily interested in one of those traditions to concentrate their attention on that tradition. Also, it would allow the portals, including the inactive ones, to be much more readily maintained, as it would clarify which articles are directly relevant. John Carter (talk) 00:30, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Considering the lack of collaboration in the Buddhist Wikiproject, creating even more -- a Wikiproject for Tibet or sub-projects, would be counterntuitive. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 16:54, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Wasn't thinking so much of different projects, but rather task forces/work groups, probably using the existing Buddhism banner. But you might be right. John Carter (talk) 17:15, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I'd agree with Zenwhat; I suspect that creating additional sub-projects would just result in a few more inactive project pages and some make-work banner tagging, and not much else. There's also a lot of overlap between the proposed sub-projects- very few editors would be interested in Tibetan Buddhism but not Vajrayana and vice-versa (Shingon specialists perhaps being the exception, but there's not a lot of them here.)- and that a more geographic organization would make more sense if sub-projects are necessary. I'd say if there's a group of editors that feel they need more help coordinating their work but don't want to use the existing project, then that's fine but it doesn't make much sense to create structure that isn't going to be used. Maybe a post to the talk pages of some of the related articles would help assess if people feel there's a need. --Clay Collier (talk) 17:51, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
WikiProject Tibet and Tibetan Buddhism already exists as a sub-project of WP:China. I'm attempting to revive this group and would welcome collaborators. --Gimme danger (talk) 17:27, 22 April 2008 (UTC)