Talk:White Brazilian
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[edit] Numbers
According to the Wikipedia Brazil has:
- 35 million Portuguese
- 25 million Italians
- 12 million Germans
- 15 million Spaniards
- 4 million Slavs
- 11 million Arabs
- 1 million Lithuanians
- 295 thousand Jews
and other Caucasoid ethnicities.
This article gives the total 93 millions of the Caucasoid people in Brasil. But the total of the above population lis is 136 milions. How could you explain the difference? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.196.150.157 (talk) 08:36, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Requested move
"Brazilians of European descent" or something similar. Race is a subjective and culture-dependent notion. FilipeS 17:23, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
- Most Brazilians are of European descent, including million of mixed-race ones. Many White Brazilians are of Arab descent as well.
Race does not exist, but different physical characteristics among humans DO exist, such as Whites, Blacks, etc. Opinoso 23:11, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
- "White, Black" and so on are racial labels. Since race has no objective basis, I suggest a different name for the article. FilipeS 20:43, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
They are not ONLY racial lebels. They also classify physical differences among humans, that DO exist.
European Brazilians is a term never used before in Brazilian History. Opinoso 21:22, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
- In the article that we're discussing, my impression is that the term "white" is used as a synonym for European ancestry (as opposed to phenotypic classification). So why not just come out and use the word "European"? FilipeS 17:18, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Why should White be replaced to European? Brazilian census use White as a race or skin color cathegory. Every nation is this world use it. Why should it be changed? Opinoso 21:52, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
- As far as I know, most nations in this world do not have race classification questions in their census. "White" is a term that is subjective, moreso than "of European descent", and evokes the discredited racial theories of the 19th century. Nevertheless, if the word "white" appears on the Brazilian census, then by all means use it in the article. But, in that case, the numbers in the article should be based on data from the census. I would also suggest scrupulous rigor in describing the data: for example, at least once the Portuguese word for "white" (branco) should be explicitly mentioned in the article, since racial categories differ between societies, and in particular a person who is described as branco in a Portuguese speaking country such as Brazil might well be predominantly described as "Hispanic" or even "black" in an English speaking country such as the United States. Just some advice. FilipeS 17:38, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately, this kind of article does exist in several other articles in other countries, specially in Latin America. It seems that all wikipedia contents from Latin American editors are compromised by such obtuse and narrow view of the world. Articles from Latin American countries are dominated by the same individuals who dominate the society in their own countries, the elite who rule over the poor. I am sincerely unmotivated to edit in these articles. --Mhsb (talk) 01:37, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't think I'm qualified to say what "most countries" say, but in the United States, the preferred nomenclature is "Caucasian". What about naming the article "Caucasian Brazilian"? Better yet, simply name it "Branco" if this is the word in common parlance in Brazil, rather than relying on a poor and implicitly racist translation. Of course, this article needs much more than a name change. Much of the content of this article is presented in a way that is "quaint" to be polite. Renaming an article full of racist pseudo-ethnology to a more legitimate sounding name is only to euphamize and promote racism in a more sly and subtle way. I agree that this article, without several major changes, is non-neutral, unencyclopedic, and should be deleted. I think it should be listed for deletion unless someone with the expertise to do the work is willing to make the necessary changes in order to make this article useful. Wilhelm meis (talk) 00:32, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
- Oppose the proposed move. The term might be racist, insensitive, pseudo-ethnologic, or whatever but Wikipedia should reflect usage and not prescribe it. Brazilians use the name "white" to describe the peoples in question here. See the article at Portuguese Wikipedia, Brancos, specifically the section on whites in brazil. Also note the usage at Composição étnica do Brasil. Nowhere does Euro-Brazilians or a similar formulation appear. Furthermore, some whites in Brazil are not from Europe but from the Near East or North America making this improper as a descriptive as well. — AjaxSmack 00:28, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Racist Article
The very existence of this article is racist. I will propose the deletion of that article to the board.
--Mhsb (talk) 03:39, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think that is necessary. As I argued above, "white" here is really another way of saying "of European descent". So just rename it "Brazilians of European descent". FilipeS (talk) 14:39, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
What is racist about this article? Talking about White people is racism?
If so, the article Afro-Brazilian is also racist, so the article African American.
Mhsb, stop disturbing the articles of Wikipedia. Opinoso
FilipeS, Why do you insist to change this article to "Brazilians of European descent"? (talk) 15:24, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
First: Most Brazilians are of European descent. Some may look Black African, but, in some degree, is of European descent.
Second: A person born to a Black African father and a White German mother is of European descent, but is not White.
Third: Brazilians of Arab descent are also Whites, not only those of European origin.Opinoso (talk) 15:27, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
- Africa and Europe are continents, geographical notions. There's nothing racist about that. "White" and "black" and "caucasoid" are racial and scientifically obsolete terms. Arab Brazilians already have an article of their own; they don't need to have a section in this one. FilipeS (talk) 15:28, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Being of European descent does not make a person White. This person can be mixed with another ethnicity.
If a White German woman has a baby with a Black man the kid is not of "European descent"? Yes, the baby is and can even get the German nationality by jus sanguinis and become an European.
Most "White Brazilians" cannot trace their ancestry only to Europe. The vast majority also trace to Amerindian and Black African ancestors.
European descent is not the same as White. Then, the correct name to the article is White Brazilian. Opinoso (talk) 15:31, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
- Opinoso, we are on different wavelengths, here. Let me try to explain my point of view better. I am not trying to claim that "white Brazilian" and "European Brazilian" mean the same. My argument is that:
-
- "White", "black", "caucasoid", etc. are outdated, unscientific, and vaguely racist terms.
- Therefore, there should be no article at all named after them.
- In principle, this article, as it currently stands, should be deleted. However, I think we can salvage most of the material that is currently here by changing the subject of the article into "European Brazilian", which is a valid, non-racist and uncontroversial term.
- In sum: what I'm proposing here is not a mere change of name; it's a change in the whole aim of this article. FilipeS (talk) 15:38, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Where are your searces to affirm that "white", "black", etc, are racist terms?
The Brazilian government does use the term "white" in its census. All countries in the world use the term "white" in their census.
"Brazilians of European descent" is the racist term. It is a wrong term, since most Brazilians are of European descent, but it does not mean most Brazilians are Whites or genetically Europeans (*of course not, since genetical resources has showed that most "White" Brazilians have a high degree of both Amerindian and Black African ancestry).
Most Brazilians do not share a "feeling of being of European descent". Most Brazilians do not even know where their grandparents were born.
Since Brazil is a "nation", in the meaning of most people share a Brazilian national feeling, the term "European" does not fit.
Since many "White" Brazilians also have a high degree of Amerindian, Black or Arab ancestry, the term "European" only include very few White Brazilians. Opinoso (talk) 15:48, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
- "White", "black", "caucasoid", etc. are outdated, unscientific, and vaguely racist terms. --> The two first objections are the most important ones.
- "Brazilians of European descent" says nothing watsoever about race.
- Race, ethnicity, kinship, nationality, ancestry, and genetics are all different things. You seem to have them confused. FilipeS (talk) 16:00, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
- FilipeS, white, black, etc, can be racist terms, but they are "real" terms, used by governements and people to distinguished between themselves, right or wrong, as such, and because this is an encyclopedia, we have to describe the word as it is - that is way we have an article on Nigger. The Ogre (talk) 16:03, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
There's already an article for Race in Brazil. That's the right place to discuss such societal or official terms. What is this article supposed to be about? An anthropological discussion of what "white" means in Brazil? If so, then it's failing miserably. Right now, all I see is a list of ethnicities/ancestries which takes the classification as "white" for granted. Or, more accurately, it's a list of Brazilian immigrant communities.
Very well, then: if the aim here is to discuss immigration in Brazil, then racial labels are totally unnecessary. FilipeS (talk) 16:15, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
By
"White Brazilians are all people who are full or mainly descended of European and other White immigrants."
What does that mean? What is the reference for that definition? I couldn't find any.
--Mhsb (talk) 01:30, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't think I'm qualified to say what "most countries" say, but in the United States, the preferred nomenclature is "Caucasian". What about naming the article "Caucasian Brazilian"? Better yet, simply name it "Branco" if this is the word in common parlance in Brazil, rather than relying on a poor and implicitly racist translation. Of course, this article needs much more than a name change. Much of the content of this article is presented in a way that is "quaint" to be polite. Renaming an article full of racist pseudo-ethnology to a more legitimate sounding name is only to euphamize and promote racism in a more sly and subtle way. I agree that this article, without several major changes, is non-neutral, unencyclopedic, and should be deleted. I think it should be listed for deletion unless someone with the expertise to do the work is willing to make the necessary changes in order to make this article useful. Wilhelm meis (talk) 04:14, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
