Talk:Welsh Highland Railway

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Contents 1 Moving things and editing 2 Welsh Translation 3 Concerning Stations 4 Ffestiniog Railway Category and proposed Welsh Highland Railway category 5 Stations 6 Overall Veracity of Information 6.1 e-group post from Mike Schumann 7 Disclaimer 8 Route Map 9 Split? 10 Festiniog v Ffestiniog

[edit] Moving things and editing

I've moved a few sections of this article about as it did not seem to flow on first reading: hopefully no-one will mind too much! The main changes have been to move the locomotive data towards the end (it broke up the flow of the text); and to add a section on Phase 4 works which I hope can be updated as work progresses.

I've taken the opportunity to re-name various sub-sections WHR (Porthmadog) and WHR (Caernarfon) for continuity and to put them in the same order wherever they appear. I've no particular reason for putting WHR(P) above WHR(C) (see below!) other than that being the way round the majority were to start with. As a 'neutral' on the issue, I would however suggest that this is a sensible order as WHR(P) existed before WHR(C)...

The 'Route' section could do with expanding, probably on a historical basis as I have tried to give a brief outline of the route from Rhyd Ddu to Porthmadog in the 'Future' section which deals with Phase 4. Not least, the route map now causes a significant white space which needs to be got rid of, even afterswitching it to the left, which removes the conflict with the picture of Russell. vanoord 17:45, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Modified article some more to add information on Phases 1, 2 & 3. These mostly deal with the history of the reconstruction work, but could do with some more route information and possibly some illustrations. This might leave the "Route" section above to be used for a short-ish history of the original construction of the WHR. vanoord 19:30, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I've added a few pictures but I'm lacking anything from Phase 2, Phase 4 or indeed the WHR (P). No doubt one day I go out with the camera, but if anyone has anything, then it would brighten the article up somewhat. Without wishing to fan the flames too much, I suggest that the sections "Controversy and Complication", "Obstruction and Objections" and "Two Welsh Highland Railways" would benefit from some re-working and condensing. While the history of the disputes may be fresh in the minds of those involved (see below!), to me it doesn't justify that amount of space taken and I very much doubt the impartial observer will find it that interesting. If there are no objections or someone doesn,t beat me to it, I'll have a go at this in a while.

In the meantime, the sections on Phases 1, 2 and 3 would probably benefit from having some route description added in to complement the rebuilding history to give an overall picture of the railway as it is now. vanoord 19:00, 6 November 2006

Although there is now a subsite within the Festiniog Railway website dedicated to the operational WHR, may I suggest contacting either of the webmasters Ben Fisher at http://whr.bangor.ac.uk or Barrie Hughes at http://www.isengard.co.uk/

Either of these people, if asked nicely, would probably be quite willing to provide additional photographs in order to further the cause. Bens official site has very good pages describing, by phase, the route itself and its rebuilding, whilst Barries unofficial site gives an alternative view of the rebuilding. Keith 22:42, 10 February 2007

[edit] Welsh Translation

I have added what I have called the brand name (I don't think this is a very good name for it, but cannot think of a better one), as the direct translation is not the one that will be used. Rheilffordd Eryri will be used, which is Snowdon Railway (I believe, but I don't know Welsh), so I felt it important to include this. If you can think of a better way to include it, I'd be grateful.--John 08:01, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm got into a muddle trying to work it out too. Anyway, "Rheillffordd" = railway, and in Welsh the order of words is basically backwards to that in English. "Eyri" actually means Snowdonia, not Snowdon, e.g. "Awdurdod Parc Cenedlaethol Eyri" is Snowdonia National Park (compare "Awdurdod Parc Cenedlaethol Arfordir Penfro" Pembrokeshire Coast National Park). Note the Snowdon Mountain Railway is "Rheilffordd yr Wyddfa" which does mean "Snowdon Railway" (no mountain). Dunc|☺ 12:06, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Concerning Stations

In order to avoid conflict of description, the 1998 agreement (q.v.), between the two separate organisations working together in the restoration of the WHR, determined that where it became neccessary (during the reconstruction era) to diferentiate between the two halves of the endevour, the 'northern end' would be called WHR (Caernarfon) and the 'southern end' WHR (Porthmadog). I hope we can agree to follow the same convention. Whilst outside the said agreement, I hope we will also agree that Porthmadog railway station is not the southern terminus of WHR (Porthmadog). NoelWalley 16:11, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ffestiniog Railway Category and proposed Welsh Highland Railway category

I recently created a new category for articles related to the Ffestiniog Railway. This spawned a debate about whether the category should include Welsh Highland Railway articles or whether it would make sense to create a separate Category:Welsh Highland Railway. This took place on User:Noel Walley's talk page. With permission of those taking part I have copied it here for wider discussion. I'll also link to this from the Ffestiniog Railway talk page.

One word from me: categories are a useful organizational tool on Wikipedia. I'd suggest we try to stay out of the politics of the WHR vs. FfR and concentrate on the question of what's the better organizational mechanism for Wikipedia articles. Best, Gwernol 16:55, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I see you have created Category:Ffestiniog Railway, however I am not convinced is it appropriate to include RhE in this. Surely there should be a separate Welsh Highland Railway category to cover the Porthmadog to Caernarfon activities (which then could also include the Gelert's Farm activities, and the constituent companies of the trackbed - PBSSR, Creosor Tramway, and the old WHR. It was an attempt to bring all the stations together that resulted in the Category:Heritage railway stations in Gwynedd. I know from personal experience on the ground it know this can get very messy. Pencefn 11:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually I created the category, not Noel. I have no problem with their being a separate Category:Welsh Highland Railway. However the Welsh Highland Railway article should be in both categories (as, for example, should Porthmadog) since the FfR plays a significant role in WHR history (and vice versa). Gwernol 12:15, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Good idea to create Category:Welsh Highland Railway. I think it would be more appropriate that Category:Heritage railway stations in Gwynedd. Yes there is an overlap due to the roles each played in their development. This would also allow issues like the Blaen Quarries to be tagged to the FR, whilst lines like the Nantlle Tramway could possible be tagged to the Welsh Highland Railway, along with Creosor, etc. An interesting selection would be where the line to the Prince of Wales Quarry above Penmorfa would go. -- Pencefn 12:33, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I totally agree, though we should beware of the subtelties. Croesor is an interesting case since at least the Rhosydd quarry did indeed ship slates out via the Ffestiniog in its early days [1] so an article on the quarry ought to be in both categories! The history of the two companies is inextricably linked right back to the earliest days. Gwernol 12:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello, I do appreciate and understand these various views. However, the fact is that the WHR, its track and stock and all its stations are owned by the Ffestiniog Railway Company and are managed by the FR. No train moves on the operational Welsh Highland Railway without explicit permission from the duty train controller at Porthmadog Harbour station who also controls all train movements on the FR. Many of the train operating volunteers working on the Ffestiniog Railway also work on the Welsh Highland Railway (having correctly learnt both routes) and in many cases allow the management to decide, on a day to day basis, which railway they will work on. At the time the WHR was formed in 1921, it and its constituent companies together with the FR were under a common majority ownership and that continued until after the WHR was closed in 1937. When the original WHR was opened in 1923, the first through trains from each end were hauled by FR locomotives.

The two railways have always been linked by ownership and management. There is a precedent for linking the two together symbolically. It is the existing coat of arms comprising a red dragon on a green and white ground with by a garter bearing the wording "Ffestiniog & Welsh Highland." and surmounted by the Prince of Wales feathers. I propose a single category: Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland. Regards NoelWalley 13:03, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Here's why I like the idea of two categories, for historical and organizational reasons.

While its true that the FfR and WHR are closely tied, its also true that the WHR was once a separate entity and even today the WHR(P) continues to exist as a separate but co-operating group to the FfR. Wikipedia needs to cover history as well as the present. The WHR category would be a good umbrella to cover earlier railway activities like the NWNGR, PB&SSR, Croesor Tramway and even the Gorseddau Tramway(s). These smaller operations probably don't need their own categories and wouldn't fit within the scope of the FfR but do make sense to under the WHR. Categories do not need to be strictly separate, so articles can exist within multiple categories. As I mentioned, Porthmadog would be under both categories, as would both railway articles. Best, Gwernol 13:45, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I must now declare an interest. I am one of those volunteers that works on both lines (I am a Guard and a Controller). I can however indicate a preference, and the FR Management has stated that no-one will be forced to work on one line or the other when they do not want to. There is then the case of ensuring that those who volunteer at Gelert's Farm do not feel alienated. In fact once the Trawth Mawr extension of WHR(P) is open, the FR controller will have to allow access onto the line at the beginning of the day. There are however a sizeable minority on both lines who have no interest in the other and feel that the distinct identities should be retained.

Enough of the politics, given that the FR was built primarily as a slate railway, and the WHR as a tourist/general freight line (the only sizable slate traffic appears to have been from Glan-y-afon and Creosor) I believe that two separate categories are appropriate to recoginse the two different heritages - yes I know the FR Heritage Group is very incestious in the this respect(I contribute to that).

Rhosydd is an interesting case - I was walking up there last Monday whilst seeking out the link between Cwmorthim and Creosor (of which more another time).

Indeed, the Croesor Tramway was used to get slate out of Rhosydd as well as Croesor, two of the larger mines in the industry after the 'central' Blaenau ones. This used the largest single-pitch incline in the Welsh slate industry, at the head of Cwm Croesor. Somewhat off-topic, though... vanoord 17:55, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

In conclusion, I think two categories - one for Welsh Highland and the other for Ffestiniog - are in order, and the other category Category:Heritage railway stations in Gwynedd I created a few days ago should be removed.

-- Pencefn 14:14, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

My personal preference remains to have separate categories for the WHR and FfR because there are articles that should be in one and not the other. What are everyone else's thoughts? Can we reach consensus? Gwernol 16:55, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Absent further discussion, I have gone ahead and created Category:Welsh Highland Railway and started tagging appropriate articles into that category. Thanks, Gwernol 20:25, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stations

These could do with rearanging into a more logical order, fitting in with the route of the railway, ie Norh to South
--82.68.6.202 23:03, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Where are they not listed in this order? They are in that order in the article, unless I've missed something. There are quite a few articles, so I probably haven't spotted the place you mean. Thanks, Gwernol 00:28, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the query is refering to Welsh_Highland_Railway#Stations. Traeth Mawr is not listed, and when them stations from WHR(P) and WHR(C) are combined they do not following in order. == Stewart 00:32, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Overall Veracity of Information

There has been comment on the railway's e-group, from senior people involved in the reconstruction/management of the railway, regarding the entries on here.

Whilst coming from either side of the operation, they both express the same concern, and obviously appreciate it as a problem neither they or we can resolve.

The problem they refer to is simply (in the third person)

The north guy reckons its been written by a southern person. The south guy reckons its written by a north person. Must state there is no animosity in any comment.

Does this mean we have it impartially dead right, or we have a major problem????

I have suggested we put a rider in somewhere and my own first wording was to the effect:

"No definitive story can be written for another hundred years as with three different groups whos consistency has changed over the 50 years it has taken for a dream to become reality and many have written their personalized versions, dependant on which group at which time" (three groups = FR / WHR / Councils)

Comments please

--Keith 23:18, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I too feel this to be a real problem. Too many anonymous contributions, which fall into three groups:

• vandal,
• disruptive and
• apparent authoritative (seems to know about it but appears not to have edited on wiki before).

The latter is the real problem. I have just edited the bit about Dinas station building. The earlier version said too little and gave a false impression that the WHHG had done more than it had. Recent anon gives the impression that all they did was provide historical info and that WHLR did the rest, which was far from the case. The work was done in 1998/99 and I have spent some time this morning searching WH Heritage Journals and Snowdon Ranger Magazines over several years (I belong to both bodies). The former describes the situation in some detail, the latter makes no significant mention until it comes to the presentation of the award in 2001 by Ian Allan when it even includes a group photo taken by Dave Allan of WHHG. I hope my re-write of that paragraph is neutral and fair to all parties. What is clear is that there was, and indeed usually is, generosity and good will on all sides, which does not always show through in what we write.

With regard to wikipedia editing, while anyone may edit, it is considered bad form, indeed against the spirit of the venture, to edit with more than one name or pseudonym or anon source. NoelWalley 12:12, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] e-group post from Mike Schumann

Noel, I hold my hands up - didn't realise I wasn't logged in - I edited the Dinas building bit in response to comments ongoing on egroup. Not withstanding your above comments may I refer to this comment from an e-group post from Mike Schumann, and personal email from him, referring to wiki in general, and specifically this page

"" Take for instance this WHR revival story. In it the author claims that the WHR Heritage Group were responsible for the restoration of Dinas Station building. This is not exactly correct. The restoration of this building was undertaken by WHLR using WHLR funding. Approx half of this came from grant giving bodies and the other half from private donors, of which at the time i was the major contributor. Over £20,000 was spent re-roofing the building, repairing the external walls and windows, sorting out the services and re-plastering where needed. I also paid separately to have the round slate ridges fitted and they were by no means cheap. (I doubt that any other building will be restored with this feature) The WHHG Group made a very valuable contribution in sourcing old photos and helping determine to what state the building should be restored (Its external appearance changed several times in its life), supplying the cast iron guttering and downpipes and fitting out the public waiting room. So overall it was in fact a combined operation between WHLR and the WHR Heritage Group and both should be given credit. "" and in private email ""So i would expect something along the lines that it was restored by WHLR Ltd, as part of the project to build the railway from Caernarfon to Dinas, with support from the WHR Heritage Group and private sponsors to ensure replication of historic detail.""

Now, I will not put down the contribution of WHHG, of which I am also a member, and admit I have to some extent done that by accident. Hopefully the way I am leaving it momentarily will be acceptable to all (!??!) Additional PS (after looking again) - okay Noel, I couldn't have done much better than the way you have worded it now, so no change from me! --Keith 15:18, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh dear, sorry Keith! Well yes, and its a very great pity that these things happen, but in terms of citeable material with regard to the restoration of this little building at Dinas all that I have been able to find is in the WHHG Newsletter. There is the rub, personal knowledge is inadmissible, the facts must have been published and preferably not just in a house magazine like the WHHG Newsletter or 'Snowdon Ranger'. I certainly did not come across mention anywhere of the finances (£20,000 or otherwise) including £10,000 donations although It did mention Mike Schumann's very generous gift of the ridge slates and of course the WHHG's guttering and waiting room panelling etc. If anyone has access to alternative published material regarding this particular restoration, I would be happy to see it incorporated and cited.

However, I am very sorry, for the original paragraph is down to me, and Mike was quite right to draw attention to its onesidedness. My only defence was haste, in that I was desperately trying to move things forward from a run of acrimony to raising the article's value from something not worth tuppence to at least the price of a telephone call.

I most sincerely hope that there is somebody in the wings properly primed with the vital information and who can write the story of the WHR restoration as it actually happened and can give full credit to the very generous few who made it possible as well as to the very many members of this and that who also helped to make it happen.

Keith, with regard to your proposal for a disclaimer, I think it a very good idea and yet I suspect it would be totally misunderstood. What might also be valuable would be a version of the "which part of the WHR is which"? from Ben Fisher's website, but that also would be misunderstood. We will just have to be at our best in being objective.

Should anyone wish to contact me, my email address is on wikipedia and is noel@llandudno.com Sincerely, NoelWalley 19:11, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Disclaimer

Okay - had discussions offlist and come up with the following as a disclaimer. Am placing here for comment first - and inviting contribs to amend within it , rather than comment on end. Suggestion position in text 2.21 and prior to the current contents of 2.2 Controversy and Complication

Over the period since the railway effectively closed on 31 May 1937, there have been a number of groups that have had an interest, of some form, in the revitalisation of the WHR. From the FR itself, the WHR reciever, through to Official Recievers, scrap merchants, budding entrepraneurs (?), Sustrans Bike paths, government in the many forms and political persuasions of the past 70 years including local, regional and national varieties. All have had something to do with the railway and its return, Add changes in policy over the period, and .......... you get my meaning. Then we come to the "enthusiast groups", a loose term used here to describe the different bands of people, who cumulatively have brought the railway to its current position, that of shortly,(three years time), running trains its extended length A definitive list of the group names involved can be found on the official Rebuilding site here:- http://whr.bangor.ac.uk/whichwhr.htm A brief description of the parts these bands played are dealt with in the next section. Suffice to say for the casual reader, a full, objective, history cannot be written yet, and will remain unwritten until at least, the council records are released.

Keith 15:50, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Route Map

Welsh Highland Railway
Legend Caernarfon Bontnewydd Dinas Waunfawr Plas-y-Nant SnowdonRanger Rhyd Ddu Meillionen Beddgelert Aberglaslyn Tunnels Pont Croesor Traeth Mawr Loop Pen-y-Mount Porthmadog cross town link Gelert's Farm Porthmadog Cambrian Line Porthmadog Harbour Ffestiniog Railway

I have created a route map for the restored Welsh Highland Railway using the Route diagram template. I've not included any road or river crossings as I think these would make it too complicated and it doesn't have the crossing of the Cambrian Line as there isn't a symbol for that. I've used the Metro/Light Rail Symbols for the Cambrian Line as that made things easier.

--Zabdiel 12:43, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Good work. Not sure what to do about the old stations and branches that connected to the route that are not being opened. --Stewart 20:31, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I though it best to leave them off as it would probably make the map confusing. Could have a separate map showing the old route. There's a jpg map in the article which covers the old stations - but not the old branch lines. Zabdiel 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Welsh Highland

Legend Headshunt Caernarfon Bontnewydd Dinas North Works sidings Dinas Dinas South Works sidings Braich / Moel Tryfan SQ Alexandra (Crown) / Fron SQ Bryngwyn Rhostryfan Tryfan Junction (derelict station building) (  ) Bryngwyn Branch Waunfawr Bettws Garmon (derelict station building) Hafod-y-Wern SQ branch Plas-y-Nant Snowdon Ranger Glanrafon SQ sidings Rhyd Ddu Rhyd Ddu Works sidings Pitt's Head Summit Cutting Meillionen Beddgelert Goat Tunnel Tunnel 2 Tunnel 3 Tunnel 4 Long Nantmor Hafod-y-Llyn Aberglaslyn & others Pont Croesor Traeth Mawr Loop (lifted) Pen-y-Mount Gelert's Farm Works Tremadog Road Cambrian Crossing/Network Rail CTRL(!) FR Harbour Station To Festiniog Railway to Blaenau Ffestiniog

Sorry Zabdiel, didnt know you had done this, when I started mine - which is part of more for FR, and expanded detail as well. Used the Metro/Light Rail Symbols for the line, and normal red for Cambrian (Sorry) --Keith]] 08:53, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I have now converted the route map to a template. --Stewart ^(talk) 19:33, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Split?

The article is getting rather large - would it be better to split off and create a couple of additional articles?

One called:

• Rebuilding the Welsh Highland Railway or
• Restoration of the Welsh Highland Railway

Containing most of the details from the following sections:

3 Restoration
 3.1 Welsh Highland Railway Limited
 3.2 Controversy and Complication
 3.3 Obstruction and Objections
 3.4 Two Welsh Highland Railways
4 Rebuilding the WHR (Caernarfon)
 4.1 Phase 1: Caernarfon to Dinas
 4.2 Phase 2: Dinas to Waunfawr
 4.3 Phase 3: Waunfawr to Rhyd Ddu
5 The future
 5.1 WHR (Porthmadog)
 5.2 WHR (Caernarfon) - Phase 4: Rhyd Ddu to Porthmadog

And one called: Welsh Highland Railway rolling stock

-- Zabdiel 2 July 2007

The restoration section has been moved to Welsh Highland Railway Restoration by Pencefn. I've proposed on that article's talk page that more info is merged in. Zabdiel 15:48, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Festiniog v Ffestiniog

Re some usage of FF instead of F. It started by the link to the Ffestiniog Railways HG Wiki (!!!) - it hasnt got one. The Festiniog Railway is the name of the company, and has been for 175 years. There has been occasional usage of FF over that period, but the bulk of material and legal documentation has had a single F. (Try searching the HMSO site for single and double F versions!)

The use of the double FF, as a marketing ploy only started in the last 25 or so years, so any refs before then to FF are incorrect.

The FRS magazine did not change from single to double until issue 145, Summer 1994. Keith 22:42, 16:36, 24 October 2007