User talk:Pencefn
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[edit] Fila
He's popped up again as User:ShakespearesZombie. I've left a comment on dave souza's talk page. --- Dreamer 84 08:44, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] TfD nomination of Template:CRcolour
Template:CRcolour has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. RichardΩ612 Ɣ |ɸ 21:56, May 14, 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Modern Railways reference
As you've probably noticed I've been trying to get Glasgow, Paisley, Kilmarnock and Ayr Railway up to GA status (and hopefully eventually FA status), but the Cook Street Bridge reference has reared its head again as an issue (see our previous discussion here). The reference needs to be fixed before the GA can be passed, or alternatively we perhaps could hide the sentence as a comment until an exact source is tracked down? I'm also keen to hear if you have any suggestions for improving the article. I intend next to work on expanding the LMS days section and to get some rolling stock info put in for that period as well as the G&SW era. Some period photographs are also a must I think. --- Dreamer 84 19:58, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] AfD nomination of List of farmers' markets in the United Kingdom
An article that you have been involved in editing, List of farmers' markets in the United Kingdom, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of farmers' markets in the United Kingdom. Thank you. Do you want to opt out of receiving this notice? TerriersFan (talk) 21:01, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Pre-history of St Mary's
Stewart,
The preamble to our St Mary's Constitution says that the congregation was founded by Alexander Duncan in 1715. This therefore can be regarded as the source. Perhaps more interesting is where the writers of the Constitution got this information from. It seems they got it from Dr James Gordon, a Glasgow historian in the 19th century (also, the priest at St Andrew's-by-the-Green), who got it from an earlier Glasgow historian called James Cleland writing in 1816. The reason I did not add references was because they are the ones on the page I created for Alexander Duncan, which also includes a brief summary of Glasgow's Episcopalian congregation during his lifetime.
In outline, from Diestablishment in 1689, Episcopalians met in various locations, such as Provost Sir John Bell's lodging (1703), Paisley Abbey(!)(1710), a meeting house location unknown (1712-14), a house in Bell Street, another meeting house in Broad Close, High Street, Candleriggs, Stockwell Street, whilst they were proscribed. Proscription ended in 1792, and from 1799 they rented a room in the Grammar School until they could build Old St Mary's in Renfield Street in 1825.
I have just completed my research on the early Episcopalians of Glasgow, as 52 pages of text, and can bore for Scotland on the subject. I propose to expand the history section, although probably not before I head for warmer climes next week.
Regards, Roger. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Clydekelvin (talk • contribs) 17:17, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Date St Mary's opened
- for discussion see User talk:Clydekelvin#St. Mary's Cathedral, Glasgow
- --Stewart (talk) 17:44, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Founding of the congregation
Stewart
The most important thing to remember is that because of the penal laws, etc., there is no continuous record of the congregation, so it is a question of trawling for information, and hoping for the best. Most of the standard history is based on secondary sources, primarily in the 19th century, and they distort. Particularly, Wodrow's early letters were not published until the 20th century, by which time the standard history had already been formulated.
The earliest contemporary reference to Glasgow's Episcopalians comes from Robert Wodrow, and dates from January 1703 when there was a riot following a sermon preached to mark King Charles the Martyr day. Wodrow writes that "We had on Saturday last, January 30, a preaching by Mr Hay in Provost Bell's lodgings. The rabble and some collegians disturbed them and broke all their windows, till the magistrates and Principal dispersed them . . . The Episcopal ministers had a meeting the night before wherein Mr Fullarton opposed their preaching in town or, at least, openly. He told them this was an incensing of the people and giving them an occasion of making a riot. He advised them to go out to Barrowfield and preach there. &c"
Wodrow was the minister of Eaglesham, and it seems he relish recording gossip, and stories putting the Episcopalians in a bad light, so it's as well to treat his evidence with caution. How, for instance, does he know what happened at the meeting the night before as he can't have been there in person?
There are, however, a number of inferences we can reasonably make from his comments.
1. He expresses no surprise that there are Episcopalians in Glasgow, which suggests that they are well established. 2. It seems that in meeting in Provost Bell's lodging to mark King Charles the Martyr, the Episcopalians were being quite aggressive. 3. It seems that Barrowfield provided a safer and less aggressive haven for the Episcopalian community. 4. It seems that there were a number of clergy present: Mr Hay, Mr Fullarton and others unidentified. And, again, this is not regarded by Wodrow as unusual. 4. The year 1703 is significant because it is the first King Charles the Martyr day since the death of William III, and it seems that Episcopalians hoped that their treatment under Anne would be more tolerant, so there is an element of poking their heads above the parapet, after keeping hidden since 1689.
There is a list of congregation members dated 1713, and this makes it pretty clear that there was an Episcopalian presence in Glasgow continuously from Disestablishment.
So, where does the date 1715 come from?
Here is how the preamble to the Cathedral Constitution starts:
"Whereas the Members of the Church of Scotland disestablished shortly after the Revolution on 1688 regularly met for public worship in Glasgow after the Revolution, and the Reverend Alexander Duncan, subsequently Bishop of Glasgow, presided over them as Minister in the year 1715; and whereas the Congregation has been uninterruptedly continued under regular Episcopal jurisdiction, and whereas in the year 1823, the Congregation was then under the pastoral care of the Reverend Alexander Jamieson and of the Reverend George Almond as his Assistant and Successor, and in 1824, a piece of ground was purchased on the east side of Renfield Street, and a Church erected thereon, to which was given the name of Saint Mary, which was opened for public worship on the 22nd day of May 1825, under a special licence from the Right Reverend Daniel Sandford, D.D. Bishop of the Diocese, &c."
So, the first priest mentioned in relation to the congregation is Alexander Duncan in 1715. This information may come from a memory or lost record within the congregation, or it may come from the anthologist historian Dr Gordon, who got it from Cleland. Cleland may have got it from Jamieson (Cleland quotes the size of Jamieson's stipend, which suggests they had some sort of contact). The problem is that whilst this date is citable, whereas 1688/89 cannot be cited, I reckon it is wrong.
I will e-mail to you a copy of my historical researches to the bonnyton address.
Roger. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Clydekelvin (talk • contribs) 22:27, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Sparkford
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- for discussion see User talk:Pyrotec#Sparkford
- Stewart (talk) 21:28, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
