Talk:War of Attrition

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Why does this article say the '1970' war of attrition? It was a three-year period that *ended* in 1970. How does one change the name of an article?

There is no referacne here to what a 'war of attrition' means, rather the specific war known as the 'war of attrtion'

Contents

[edit] July 30th, 1970 ambush

There were not 24 MiGs. Maybe there were 24 in air at one time, but if this is so, then 12 of them did not reach the battle in time, so they did not take part. There is much confusion about the number of planes involved (24:12?, 12:20?, 8:16?, 8:12?), but it would not be much of an ambush if the Israelis were outnumbered 2:1.

  • There are many sources that say there were 24 MiGs. There are other sources that put the ratio at 20:12, but I have yet to see one claiming there were more Israeli planes than MiGs. In any case, it is bad form for you to just replace the original figures in the article with others, without citing a source. It may very well be that some of them arrived later than the others.

Looking at sources from one side are not you? You have to look at both sides to get a more clear picture. Even the account of an Israeli pilot contradicts the 24:12 statement: "Now some more of our aircraft had joined the battle; the Russians no longer had numerical superiority." from here http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_263.shtml

  • You presume too much. I've looked at numerous sources, mostly neutral, and have yet to see your claim of an 8:12 ratio. Indeed, the very article you cite above is one of my sources,and is a neutral one, and gives a 16:12 ratio, as follows "Four high-flying Mirages were nearby, with four additional Phantoms at low level, all waiting for the Soviets to appear. Further to the rear four additional Mirages were positioned as well. When there was no reaction from the Soviets, the front section of Mirages penetrated deeper into Egypt: almost 12 minutes after the initial attack, the Soviets finally reacted. The first to be scrambled were eight MiG-21s of the 135th IAP, led by Capt. Kamencev. They expected to clash with a group of Skyhawks or Phantoms that were apparently underway towards Cairo: in fact, the Mirages were only dragging them in front of Phantoms. As the pursuit continued, four additional MiGs were scrambled from Kom Awshim, and now the rear quartet of Mirages joined the fray as well: in response, the Soviets scrambled four additional MiGs from Kutamiyah." Other sources have it at 20:12: "four Mirage IICs were sent to attack a radar base in the Nile Delta to draw the Russian pilots into the battle. At the same time, another four Mirages and four F-4s were lying in ambush at a very low altitude. The Russians sent two formations of four MiG-21s to shoot down the Mirages. A short time later, another dozen MiGs took off. " http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives/1998/articles/jul_98/jul2a_98.html

And of course, if you want the account of Israeli pilots, thoe official IAF history books have the ratio at 24:12

Again, the IDF official account is only one side. What are your other neutral sources? By neutral, I don't mean a non-Israeli website or book, but something that does not only use Israeli sources and/or is not biased to one side. You have to have a truely neutral source or atleast look at sources from both sides and compare. I posted the website to provide a source for the pilot's quote. Acig has some anti-Soviet bias, so I don't consider it a neutral source. Anyway, on there and on the site you posted, it does not say that the additional MiGs reached the battle in time. Russian sources state that the Israelis had numerical superiority (8:12 or 12:20) in the actual battle. Maybe I will translate them later if needed. I think it is not wise to say that the Israelis were fighting outnumbered 2:1. Why does the Israeli pilot contradict the 24:12 assumption?

The IDF account is only one side, but I've given you 2 other sources, the ACIG site, and the CodeOne site. To me, they are both neutral, as they are neither Israeli nor Soviet. But if you're going to discount every such source by alleging it has an anti-Soviet bias, there's not much point in bringing up sources, is there? [I have yet to see a single one of your sources, BTW]. I don't know why you think it's not wise to say that the Israelis were fighting outnumbered 2:1. Sela's testimony does not contradict the 24:12 ratio, it merely states that at one point in time, the Israelis achieved numerical parity. This tells us the Israelies were outnumberd before that point in time, but does not rule out that they were again outnumbered later, when the additional 4-8 MiGs arrived on the scene Isarig

He describes the crucial part of the battle and we know that atleast half the battle (2 MiGs already down, Israelis in positions to shoot others) was not fought with Israelis outnumbered. The CodeOne site does not list any sources, so you can't say it is neutral (again it is not only about who wrote it, but what sources were used). And from the way it is worded, it seems to only use Israeli sources (well it is about the IAF). As for the article on acig, it mentions a Russian source, but again from the tone of the article and from my knowledge about the author, Cooper, I can say that it primarily uses Israeli sources and is biased towards the pro-Western Israel. Cooper, looking at his books, articles, and forum activity, has a generally anti-Soviet point of view (in a post he made on the acig forums, he hints that Russian sources are unreliable). I could direct you to the Russian sources, but they are in Russian.

[edit] William Rogers

The list of people at the bottom of the page contains a link to William Rogers. That link is to a disambiguation page, and it's not clear which William Rogers on that page is the relevant one. Would someone who knows this please (1) update the link to be to a page about the right William Rogers, and (2) add some text after the link indicating this person's role in the conflict (for example, "U.S. ambassador to Israel", or whatever he did)?

[edit] War of Attrition:Timeline

Under the "Timeline" heading there is a reference to Superpowers that I found misleading. I'd previously deleted this reference, but a dissenting contributor felt I was mistaken in my belief that it referred to Israel and Egypt, two nations that I don't believe were ever considered 'superpowers', in that it represented the US and Soviet Union. I'd accept that but for the fact that there is no preceding mention of the US or Soviet Union in the "Timeline" segment. I ask that someone more knowledgeable than myself review the article, and determine if my understanding of its context is correct. In any case, to the casual reader, it is confusing, and either a referring statement needs to be added before "Superpowers" or the word should be removed as inaccurate. I've chosen not to edit this again myself for hopefully obvious reasons. Thanks.--Dphoenix1701 14:29, 28 May 2006 (UTC)dphoenix1701

[edit] Who started the War?

At the very beginning of the article, it reads "(the war) was initiated by Israel as a way to prevent recapture the Sinai from Israel". At the Beginning of the timeline it reads "The war began in June 1968 with sparse Egyptian artillery bombardment of the Israeli front line on the east bank of the canal.".

So who started the war?

Egypt. They wanted Sinai back. Thier tactic was simple: Egypt has more manpower than Israel so they'll use some of their man power to weaken the Israeli forces guarding the border by shoting them day after day. Then Egypt will use it extra power to take Sinai back while Syria will try to take the Golan Hieghts back. In Yom Kipur War they failed doing so for some reason, never understood what it is.--Tharbad 01:34, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Use as generic phrase

Should there not be an entry for the phrase "war of attrition" rather than just for this particular conflict?

[edit] New Information

In 2003 IDF has changed one attribute of the war: the time. According to that info this war started on 7.1967 and lasted until 8.1970. The part of the which is mentioned in this article is the third one; the lasted from 7.1967 till autumn 1968, the second, which was a cease-fire, from fall 1968 till spring 1969 and the third as mentiond in the article.

External link (Hebrew).

--Tharbad 01:27, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vanadlized!!!!!

Please fix this page, and lock it, it looks like the same guy did this all. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82abhilash (talk • contribs) 23:15, 8 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Casualty Report

The article states there were a little over 350 dead Israeli soldiers. Israeli Governmental Figures, The Jewish Virtual Library, and all other sources I've seen say there were 1,424 dead Israeli soldiers during the war. I would also like the article to note the 100 dead Israeli civilians.

The The Jewish Virtual Library also shows ~2,000 wounded soldiers and ~700 wounded civilians on the Israeli side. Perhaps "more that 3,000 wounded" should be replaced with the more detailed "2,000 wounded soldiers. 700 wounded civilians." Besides the fact that this would provide a more detailed breakdown, it also has a source, which the original article does not.

I would make the edit myself, but I'm a new user. Aside from the technical challenges, I'm not sure what I'm at liberty to edit without first consulting the discussion board.

    Also I can't see where it says anything about the 10,000 dead on the Egyptian side. I looked in the reference and it doesn't give a specific figure.

I m dude2002 21:21, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

The 10000 figure came from reference 3, though that was not the one sourced and hence I changed the numbers to match the source that was referenced —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.179.104.191 (talk) 09:28, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

as the israelis bombed "strategic" non-military targets such as factories, infrastructure and the like, the civilian casulties on the egyptian side were very heavy. Lom Nordeen (international airpower vol 8, p103) cites a figure of 30,000 ! no reference or break-down of figure are given, however.

sinzov —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sinzov (talk • contribs) 09:13, 8 March 2008 (UTC) Sinzov (talk) 09:28, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] some strategic considerations

i think some of the more complex consideration should be included in the main text.

- after the victory of 1967 israel was fighting a multi-front war, since military actions were continued from egypt, syria and the palestinians. instead of exploring chances for peace, the leaders of israel opted for agressive military actions. strategically, these israeli actions were not defensive, but offensive in trying to establish and secure the israeli occupation of foreign land (some 30 years later a discussion started: did israel - and the arabs - loose the peace in the late 60ies ?).

- the israeli effort would have faltered soon, if not for the massive military and economical support by the USA. there is no way the israeli economy could have fed the war without the US support and money.

- the egyptian build-up of a dense air-defence organisation including thousands of soviet troops changed the whole military situation. in spite of severe setbacks this umbrella denied air-supremacy to the israelis and reestablished egyptian control over her country and troops.

- the following israeli abondonment of deep strikes was surely not a question of ethical considerations after the killing of dozens of school children but of military facts. bombing non-military targets such as factories (Helwan) or infrastructure has always had an element of terror bombing with the agressor willing to accept heavy civilian casulties.

- evidently the israeli air force had simply lost it's war against the air defence. any continuation would have meant a further escalation with the potential of a direct confrontation of the superpowers. that is why the superpowers forced their "ally" to step down and agree to a cease fire.

so the outcome was twofold: egypt had not regained control over sinai - whether this really was an objective for the "war of attrition" could be disputed -, but it had reestablished it's control west of the suez canal, reestablished the morale of it's population and military, and some of it's reputation at least partyl. egypt did learn it's lessons, israel obviously only to a much lesser extent.

p.s.: facts and figures given in the main article are far from neutral. sources are mostly israeli or of a very dubious value (especially Cooper's many articles are next to worthless). scores of israeli aircrafts were shot down by sam-missiles, and many more by fighters, including those shot down by soviet pilots. suffering heavy losses, they effectively forced the israeli air force to restrict their actions to the canal.

Sinzov (talk) 10:22, 8 March 2008 (UTC)