Talk:Voßstraße

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[edit] Merge and Redirect

As per Germany Wikipedia, which has no separate article on Voßstraße, I suggest to merge the content to Wilhelmstraße, Reich Chancellery, Topography of Terror or other articles, redirect, and call it quits here. -- Matthead discuß!     O       09:09, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

And carry on the ß-debate at Wilhelmstrasse? Unschool 20:25, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
It would return there. Anyway, having one article less should be one battle field less. -- Matthead discuß!     O       18:44, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Why is there a debate, anyway? Writing Vossstrasse is not the English version of the name, but just plainly wrong in German. There's a reason why there's ss and ß. Nobody would try editing out a 'ñ' out of a Spanish article, I suppose.. Something Wicked (talk) 22:06, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Well, Wicked, the debate over the use of ß is a rather old one, and sadly, it has caused some very hard feelings. There are intelligent arguments for both sides. You may want to look around at some other articles to get a better understanding. Unschool (talk) 03:09, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

It is a legitimate article - I don't think it should be merged and/or redirected. There are people here who have no cultural awareness and, nonetheless, don't wish to recognize the character. "sss" is an improper translation - and there is no harm using the character, as the turks do with their names, and the spanish do with theirs, and the portugese, etc, etc, etc. Rarelibra 23:39, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

For my part, I don't think this article so vital it cannot be merged. The Chancellery is a good part of the importance of this article, such as it is; Wikipedia still isn't a street directory, even for Berlin. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:46, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Sigh. Someone please merge the content to anywhere, and everybody please get over with it. -- Matthead  DisOuß   05:18, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Isn't the ß like the & symbol?

I can choose to say, "Mary, Tom & I" or I can say, "Mary, Tom and I". Neither is correct or incorrect; it's just a matter of whatever I feel like typing. Isn't that same true for the ß symbol? - Theaveng (talk) 15:18, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Not really. In German, ß and ss are used differently. For example, Maße and Masse are two different words: Maße means "measurements", while Masse means "mass". Likewise, Schoß means "lap", while schoss means "shot" (past tense of "shoot"); Floß means "raft", while floss means "flowed". They're not interchangeable. —Angr 18:18, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Awwww. They never taught us that in German class. I thought the "ß" was the same as "ss". Writing shorthand. - Theaveng (talk) 14:31, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
My favourite is the difference between Wilhelmstraße and Wilhelmstrasse, the one being William Street (Wilhelm-Straße), the other being William Route (Wilhelms-Trasse) (albeit the two would be eerily similar in meaning). Blur4760 (talk) 18:36, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tag

I see by the edit history that writing in English on this English Wikipedia is described as inaccuracy. The way to deal with such complaints should be to add a tag, and discuss here. I await the discussion with some interest. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:54, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Writing in English is not described as inaccuracy. The inaccuracy is misspelling a German name that has no English equivalent and then referring to that misspelling as "the English equivalent". "Voss-Strasse" etc. is not the English name of Voßstraße (the way, for example Vienna is the English name of Wien); it's just a misspelling. —Angr If you've written a quality article... 05:11, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
False; this street is widely discussed in English and hardly ever spelt with the eszett, and then only by the sort of sources which also use München, for example. Copious instances of this will be found in discussion; some more in this collection of evidence In this, btw, it differs from Swedish names, and from many German names using the umlaut; diacriticked vowels are demonstrably more acceptable in English. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:00, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
It is clear that Vossstrasse is routinely used in English publications more than is Voßstraße. Per WP:UE, we should not be using the "ß" here. It doesn't matter whether people think that Vossstrasse is a transliteration or not, or whether it's a "misspelling" or not. It is the usage normally found in English, and that is what the spirit of WP:UE is all about—making this a comfortable read for most English speakers. It is the height of arrogance to demand that Voßstraße be used. (The vast majority of English speakers will think that it says "Vobstrabe", anyway.) Unschool (talk) 18:09, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Object per the common sense approach User:Angr is trying to get across. Consider this: A Google query (yes, yes, spare me the commonplace objections) for vossstrasse -vossstraße -voßstraße -voßstrasse -wikipedia yields ~950 hits, while a query for vossstraße -vossstrasse -voßstraße -voßstrasse -wikipedia yields ~50. Unless someone brings up a better indicator to the contrary, this unambiguously indicates that the ß is substituted with ss both in the named part (Voß) and in the generic designation as a street (Straße). So, it's Voßstraße, often incorrectly spelt as Vossstrasse in English sources. Move on. User:Dorftrottel 19:46, January 15, 2008


Just some hints about the ß/ss-thing, followed by my own opinion:

  • Since the Rechtschreibreform, the letter "ß" indicates long pronounciation of the previous vowel, the letters "ss" indicate short pronounciation of the previous vowel.
  • This does not apply to Switzerland, they use "ss" in both cases.

Thus, a street is "Straße" in, e.g., Austria and Germany, and "Strasse" in Switzerland.

  • Of course, the Rechtschreibreform does not apply to proper nouns like August Graf von Voß-Buch.
  • "ss" can be used as substitute for "ß", mainly used in the following two cases:
    • In the pre-computer-era, typewriters without a "ß"-key existed. I this case ss was used as substitute.
    • No uppercase-"ß" exists, therefore one has to write AUGUST GRAF VON VOSS-BUCH.

Given this, the fact that many english readers don't know how to pronounce a "ß", and comparing the 1,170 hits from vossstrasse -vossstraße -voßstrasse -voßstraße -wikipedia with the 1,090 hits from voßstraße -vossstraße -voßstrasse -vossstrasse -wikipedia I think "Vossstrasse" should be used in the Englisch Wikipedia.see my contribution below--Cyfal (talk) 20:47, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

--Cyfal (talk) 20:54, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Some more info:
  • Depending on circumstances, "sz" is or was the correct substitute for "ß" (nonwithstanding "ss" under other circumstances)
  • Ever since the use of the long s character was discontinued, and the round s was used everywhere, there was the rule that never, for whatever reason, a triple s was to be typed or written. This held even if the 1st or 3rd "s" was part of another letter combination and thus not pronounced. It was only in the 1996 incepted governmental spelling reform, which became effective in some schools in 2005 and in all schools in 2006, and is still not very widely accepted by the public, that this rule has been given up for most, not all, instances.

Since Voßstraße is the correct spelling, I strongly suggest to use it as the page title. Since Vossstrasse is the officially correct substitute today, I suggest make it a redirect to Voßstraße. Since Vosstrasse was the officially correct substitute spelling for centuries, and is the most widely used and accepted substitute of today, and is likely to be found in literature for the next century or so, I suggest to let it redirect to Voßstraße. --Purodha Blissenbach (talk) 18:30, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

The "correct name" in English is the name English uses; this English Wikipedia should use that name, per guideline and policy. The German government does not determine what correct English is, any more than they determine what correct Switzerdeutsch is. We anglophones do not have an Academy to determine it for us, unlike more ordered nations; we determine correct English by what most of us do actually do.Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:47, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
When any English source writes "Vossstrasse", it's not a misspelling but a perfectly legal replacing of ß with ss because no ß is available on an English keyboard. It makes it easier for them to write the name. It's some sort of transliteration, but not a different name. It's the same way of writing Serbian names with c in the end instead of ć. - Comartinb (talk) 14:43, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

In case already an established english spelling variant exists, I think we should use this one. (That's not only my own opinion but also seems to be consens on Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)#Use English.) I've now checked the online accessible references in this article: Its mostly spelled "Voss Strasse". (Perhaps someone should check the newspapers and books cited, too.) Thus, I now suggest to move the article to "Voss Strasse". --Cyfal (talk) 20:47, 30 March 2008 (UTC)