Talk:Vitamin C/Archive 1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

What good is Vitamin C? What are it's many uses in the body?

In general, the entire article needs to restructured to support the theories presented in the opening paragraph. Additionally, all of the Vitamin articles should have the same structure. In particular, the opening paragraph should give the user what they're most likely to be looking for (What it is, How much do we need and What is it used for) and it should do so at the 4th grade level. Subsequent paragraphs can then introduce more complex information and social debate.

If verified, the following might be paraphrased or quoted: "The only established role of the vitamin appears to be in curing or preventing scurvy. Vitamin C is the major water-soluble antioxidant within the body. The water-soluble properties of vitamin C allow for the quenching of free radicals before they reach the cellular membrane." from http://www.exrx.net/Nutrition/Antioxidants/VitaminC.html#anchor3005638 (unknown information quality) in the section on Physiological Role

3D Modelling

Looks like when talking about vitamin C, the question of the chirality of ascorbic acid is systematically occulted and as far as I know the effect of ascorbic-L (vitamin C) are very different from the effect of ascotbic-R! As a non chimist I even have sometimes a little doubt that could be dissipated with a 3D model of the Vitamin C. As far as I know only a 3D model allows anybody to reallise that the mirror image is not the same as the original!

Iron

Vitamin C can be used to manufacture iron? What is this, cold nucleosynthesis or something? Get Pons and Fleischman on the phone!

--dja

Not to manufacture iron, but I heard (unsubstantiated claims) that it reportedly facilitated the intestinal uptake of iron, and would thus possibly help to elevate blood iron levels. In my own personal single case (ie. this is not at all scientific evidence) this seems to appear plausible: I am an (ovo-lacto-) vegetarian. Vegetarians are typically an at-risk group as regards blood iron levels getting too low. However I also take 1,000mg Vit C supplements daily (as deemed save by the UK FSA www.food.gov.uk) and blood tests have repeatedly shown excellent blood iron levels in my case. (Again, that's me as one single isolated case, so while it seems plausible to me it's far from being proof.)
Ropers 05:23, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

--A tribe of natives who ate from iron cauldrons suffered from iron toxicity immediately after being given Vitamin C. Vitamin C increases the bioavailability of iron (see above).

Old source of Vitamin C

The use of lemons and limes to prevent scurvy dates back hundreds of years - and the use of spruce leaves even further. They just didn't know the chemical name for vitamin c.

Ascorbic Acid vs Vitamin C

Why isn't this on Vitamin C? And why is the name, "Vitamin C," put in bold each time it is used? --LMS

Should Vitamin C redirect to Ascorbic Acid or Ascorbic Acid redirect to Vitamin C ?
I think Ascorbic Acid should be main, and Vitamin C redirect, but I made it (maybe temportarily)
the other way not to make too much mess. -- Taw
Neither. "Ascorbic acid" should be an article that describes the chemical itself, briefly mentioning the fact that it is also a human nutrient known as "Vitamin C" (with a link). The "Vitamin C" article should emphasize the history of its discovery as a nutrient that prevented scurvy, and that it was later discovered to be the chemical "Ascorbic acid" (with a link). --LDC
What ? That's plain absurd from biochemical p.o.v.
Ascorbic Acid is a Vitamin due and only due to its chemical properties.
And you can't describe vitamin in a way that would satisfy a chemician w/o refering to biochemical reactions
it is required for. --Taw
You misunderstand my point. The word "vitamin" implies a relationship to human health; the term was used for chemicals whose composition was unknown, but whose effects were. Any article using the word in its title should be from the human-health point of view. "Ascorbic acid" itself, from a purely chemical point of view, is just a chemical with properties all its own independent of humans. We discovered at some point that Vitamin C was in fact ascorbic acid, but that doesn't mean we should forget all the science that was known about both before we knew that they were the same thing. Let's not ignore the history of scientific discovery by assuming that we always knew things that we happen to know now. --LDC
If anything, Vitamin C should redirect into ascorbic acid, because ascorbic acid is more general. Otherwise they should be kept as separate entries. This is one of the unresolved issues of Wikipedia philosophy--should we merge related topics into one page, or have separate entries which link to each other? How closely do they have to be related or subordinate in meaning to merit merging? (Anarchy/anarchism is another good example.)
In this case, if we prefer merging, then Vitamin C should merge into Ascorbic acid, and its info would go under a subhead of something like Ascorbic acid as a vitamin.
--TheCunctator
Vitamin C is not the equivalent of ascorbic acid. Ascorbic acid describes the chemical properties of a molecule. Vitamin C describes the Nutritional , Historic, Economic and Cultural role of one kind of ascorbic acid molecule in human experience. See earlier discussion of this on this page.
Lumos3 00:46, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Apart from which, quite a lot of "Vitamin C" is sodium ascorbate, not ascorbic acid per se - David Gerard 14:26, Feb 14, 2004 (UTC)
Also dehydroascorbic acid , Calcium ascorbate , Potassium ascorbate , and fatty acid esters of ascorbic acid such as Ascorbyl palmitate and Ascorbyl stearate are all vitamin C Lumos3 17:17, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Doctor Within also asserts vitamin C is more than ascorbic acid, saying Szent-Georgi found he couldn't cure scurvy with ascorbic acid alone, so he hunted for other parts...rutin being one. Citing Empty Harvest p120 142.177.169.163 22:23, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Have a look at http://www.healthychild.com/database/synthetic_or_natural_vitamins_what_s_the_difference_.htm. --Magnus Manske
I think the argument is overdone. What matters is the knowledge is there and people can get to it whether they type Vitamin C or Ascorbic Acid - Andy A.M. 2005-11-04

Orthography

Why is Ascorbic Acid capitalized?

Pop group

Isn't Vitamin C also a pop musical group ? ~BF

Not a pop group, but rather the stage name of a solo artist, Colleen Fitzpatrick. -- Paul Drye
Perhaps you are thinking of the 80s pop group Vitamin Z? Katalaveno 13:32, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Harmful effects

no harmful effects have been reported even in doses of 10,000 mg per day or more. This is contary to what is written here. Which is correct? Crusadeonilliteracy 15:33, 26 Jan 2004 (UTC)

This article makes little mention of the sources of these claims of harm.
Although many authors site theoretical risks I have found no studies demonstrating actual risk. Also the question of how most mammals can remain healthy on high serum levels of ascorbic acid has to be answered.
For a detailed look at high dose effects see
http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/faq.html
Lumos3

I deleted the bit about dietary modificaitons to treat iron overload. The paper referenced is odd. It is a case report of a single patient and the changes in Ferritin level in the article were not clinically significant on treatment. Sine the referenced paper was published it has become clear that hemochromatosis is due to disregulation of iron absorbtion at the level of the intestinal mucosa. Kd4ttc 03:59, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Experiment proposal moved to talk

How heat-sensitive is vitamin C?

An experiment

This experiment should be easy to conduct for most adaequately equipped professionals:

  1. Pour water into a heat resistant container, eg. a suitable glass beaker.
  2. Dissolve a certain amount of vitamin C in the water.
  3. Set up a sensor to measure, in real time, the vitamin C content in the water (sensor must be capable of returning reliable data at varying temperatures).
  4. Likewise, set up a temperature sensor, for real time temperature data.
  5. Place a heat source, for example a bunsen burner under the container.
  6. With the help of a watch, monitor the vitamin C content over time. Optionally repeat the experiment at varying temperatures.

Measuring the vitamin C content of water eliminates the error source of the vitamin leaking from vegetables into water (see above).

Could people conducting the above experiment possibly please add a link to their results here? Results of this experiment are otherwise hard to find on the Internet and I'm not now personally equipped to repeat the experiment myself; least of all in an academically accredited setting. Thanks.
This is not an "experiment proposal". This is an experiment that has been conducted and was included in the article as backup for specific claims. As I sadly cannot find relevant sources/records of the experiment anymore and especially since I cannot find such sources on the Net, it is very important to include this experiment description in the article:
  1. Without the (for relevant professionals) easily accomplishable experiment, the pertinent statements will appear unfounded.
  2. Because the scientific myth of vitamin C's extreme "temperature sensitivity" is so unquestioningly repeated and thus deeply ingrained in common teaching, it is important that academically accredited results be added which can reliably establish (or hypothetically also refute, but I don't believe it) what I wrote. There simply will be no one who will conduct the said experiment unless the question is put on the table. This will benefit all sides.
  3. The added comment in italics makes the "ongoing"/"open" nature of the issue plain for everyone to see, so there will be no misunderstandings about the current situation as regards the burden of proof.
For these reason, I am putting the experiment back into the main article and I would ask for discussion prior to any repeated removal (if there is still anyone considering removal).
Ropers 05:16, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)


This has no place in an encyclopedia article on Vitamin C. The Wikipedia is not a place for results of personal research, and is still less the place for proposals that someone carry out personal research. - Nunh-huh 05:33, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I find it more than unacceptable that Nunh-huh just dropped the above note (against the wording of which I also object) in here and then immediately went ahead and again deleted my said contribution when I had clearly asked for a discussion prior to removal.
(Admittedly, on the revert without notice issue, I could be seen as being guilty of the same crime, because when I hit an edit conflict before going to bed yesterday, I just semi-consciously went ahead and saved my version, thereby actually reverting Nunh-huh's deletion again.)
However, I put it to Nunh-huh that he not even read the article as I left it and did not even make an attempt to understand where I was coming from. He just deleted what seemed kinda conspicious to a fleeting eye — and he even didn't make an effort to stop and double check before he re-deleted my contribution: He even left a dangling link (later removed by Lumos3).
I am extremely offended by what I feel was Nunh-huh treating me condescendingly (also see his comments in the history).
I am seeking help to resolve this through some kind of mediation and/or arbitration. As a still moderately new Wikipedian, I have not yet been in a situation quite like this and would be grateful for any help and guidance about how best to proceed and where to take this. I don't believe there is any merit in me talking directly to Nunh-huh at this stage because I feel he rudely insulted me. I feel that the way he disputed my statements by implication means that he accused me of making up things that I was accurately recounting. He referred to "proposals to carry out personal research" — as if the said experiment was a personal pet project of mine that I sought to promote. It isn't. It is — in the absence of known links to results or print references — backup towards the validity of statements I made (because it's reproducable). The article as I left it yesterday: [1] - [User:Ropers|Ropers]] 17:15, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I can find no material on the internet that supports the claim that Vitamin C is heat stable. I am doubtful that this claim should be left in the article unless some citations can be found to support it. I don’t think the inclusion of an experimental method to support this claim is appropriate to the encyclopedia article. An encyclopedia is a summary of knowledge, even if disputed, not a discussion. Disputed knowledge may be included if it can be reported who is making the claim for it but the article should not be used as an area to build an argument. So I would ask User:Ropers to find the reports which support this finding. Lumos3 19:13, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I don't think this bit should be left in either:

"Vitamin C enriched teas and infusions have increasingly appeared on supermarket shelves. Such products would be nonsense if boiling temperatures did indeed destroy vitamin C at the rate it had previously been suggested. It should be noted however that as of 2004 most academics not directly involved in vitamin C research still teach that boiling temperatures will destroy vitamin C very rapidly."

This appears to be an attempt to insinuate that anyone who teaches that vitamin C is destroyed by vitamin C is not involved in research on the topic. There is no evidence for this, and I would say it is most likely false. The more likely situation is that vitamin C enriched teas are being sold as a gimmick without any proof of their efficacy, as is the case with so many other health foods. I am removing the above paragraph from the article until its author can come up with some evidence to support its content. Gamsarah

Vitamin C advocacy section

Mortene wrote that: "Positive medical effects of such treatments are however not well documented by evidence." This is not a true statement see Ascorbate web for a list of published science on health benefits of vitamin c. Lumos3 23:02, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The Hickey, Steve & Roberts challenge / changes by 80.5.160.8

I think the information added by 80.5.160.8 is important. The authors are associated to important vitamin C researchers. I have re-included the proposed changes by trimming its militancy a bit. --Congruence 17:33, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure how allowable the Steve Hickey research is. Its publication seems to have been using the vanity press Lulu.com. If no one has anything to say about it, I am going to remove all the information clearly drawn (at times verbatim) from Hickey's work. Turly-burly 02:47, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
The book Ascorbate by Hickey and Roberts is well-written and has an extensive bibliography at the back. It's an excellent source of information. It's a "secondary source", reviewing a large number of other studies. --Coppertwig 13:50, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Potatoes

Potatoes are mentioned as a Vitamin C source, but are not listed in the comparative table that shows the amount of vitamin C in various plant sources. Perhaps this is because potatoes are cooked while many of the other sources are not?

Any more info available?

zoney ♣ talk 18:51, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

10 kilos of Vitamin C a day?

"His book How to Live Longer and Feel Better was a best seller and advocated a regime of more than 10,000 grams per day." This just can't be right. Is it supposed to be 10,000 milligrams? Bkkbrad 14:03, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

In his book, page 8, Pauling states :

Take vitamin C every day, 6 grams (g) to 18 g (6000 to 18,000 milligrams [mg]), or more. Do not miss a single day.

--Congruence 21:47, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Potential of Potassium as a measurable part of VITAMIN C

Question -- what is the probability of Potassium Ascorbate being used for commercial Vitamin C products? And, what would the measurable content of potassium if used in this manner?

I am concerned about the use of commercial Vitamin C products by persons sensitive to potassium -- dialysis patients specifically. Could this be a problem?

Well, I am not a chemist, but I guess that one K atom binds to one AA molecule, and thus if you get 1 gram of ascorbic acid in potassium ascorbate form, you get 39/176 = about 220mg of K. The safety value for K is about 2 to 3 grams. This means that you can safely get about 10 grams of potassium ascorbate per day. --Congruence 21:55, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It should probably be noted that most of these "safe values" are for those who don't have severe kidney problems. The same applies to water. Pakaran 16:19, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Billy Goat Plum

Which source claims that the Billy Goat Plum has 5000mg Vitamin C per 100g? The Billygoat plum article itself mentions a figure of 2300-3150mg ascorbic acid per 100g of edible fruit, and a link there also mentions 2000-3000mg/100g [2]. Greenman 20:56, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Wolfberry

Same (but worse) inconsistency for Wolfberry. Here says 2500, article on Wolfberry says: "Vitamin C content in dried wolfberries has a wide range (from different sources) from 29 mg per 100 grams to as high as 148 mg per 100 grams." Dried should surely have higher content if anything. FWadel 12:47, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


Vitamin C cures all diseases, including leg amputations

This article says that you should eat tons and tons of vitamin C everyday for the rest of your life. One paragraph I saw was a cut and paste from a website owned by a vitamin C salesman. He sells vitamin C becuase it practically cures everything, makes you feel better and feel more energetic. Vitamin C will also make your girlfriend love you some more. Should we include in this article the links to all the websites where people can buy these vitamin C bottles? One salesman even said that vitamin C improves your IQ by killing viruses that attact the brain. Well, thats their story. Somebody please re-write this article to be objective and not to promote vitamin supplements. Seriously, 5 grams a day is not recommended by any nutritionist, except the ones that sell the vitamins.

NPOV: Much of this article itself comprises advocacy for the high-dosage camp

In addition, many parts of the article comprise arguments back and forth between advocacy and skepticism of Vitamin C high-disage therapy, as well as arguments back and forth on the effects of cooking and boiling Vitamin C. The article reads like a long and frequently alternating argument, including partisan espousal of points of view outside any consensus, rather than an encyclopedic entry. This whole article needs a thorough overhaul, most of all by condensing all the dosage controversy into a single objective section rather than being spread throughout the article.

To the high-dosage enthusiast contributors - maybe you're right and science will settle on a consensus that vindicates you at some point, but in the meantime, in the words of Tommy Lee Jones, "I don't care." It doesn't make advocacy encyclopedic.

Reaverdrop 07:44, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree that this article reads like a POV advocate for high or overdosage of Vitamin C. For example, it states that RDA is not enough. This is highly controversial - I've don't see the need for supplementation if one eats a balanced diet, and if so are all our ancestors living in the pre-supplementation period unhealthy weaklings? The one time I took a high dosage Vitamin C supplement I suffered from peeling hands, sore lips and tongue and diarrhea. Mandel 01:44, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
The article does not recommend high doses, it reports a genuine disagreement within science about the role and appropriate dose of Vitamin C. True the majority view of established science is that it is only a vitamin for which a small dose is adequate. However a number of well qualified and expert people have supported the high dose argument. It is not Wikipedia's role to only report a majority view on a subject but to fairly describe all opinions an interested reader may encounter elsewhere. Mandel, your own experience with a high dose is unfortunate but does not bear on the overall argument. Regimes for safe high consumption can be found on the advocacy pages linked from the article. I will review the article and ensure that the minority view is always reported as such. Lumos3 18:57, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
The original article says these: "However, a person who is just freed from a scorbutic condition with only a small amount of ascorbate (i.e. RDA quantities) is arguably a very unhealthy individual, and certainly not one in optimum health."; "Many such reports have never been published in peer reviewed journals, which casts some suspicion on their credibility." If these doesn't recommend high doses, I don't know what do. I agree with much you say, but I never said don't report the minority view, I said don't endorse the minority view with a clear bias. Also, this article does not yet touch on the side effects of overdosage, namely a reduced intake of other important nutrients such as Vitamin B12 and copper. And also, if Vitamin C antibacterial like so many people claim, can it cause a disruption in our intestinal microbe balance? Mandel 05:23, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
The sentences you quote have been removed or altered. I have also added some citations to the Reported potential harmful effects section and will add more. The affects on Vitamin B12 are not noted anywhere I can find. I have added a link to one site which claims copper absorption problems but this seems of dubious quality as it makes no citations itself. Vitamin c is not antibacterial in its own right but works in the blood stream to increase the immune response and neutralise bacterial toxins. It does no harm to gut bacteria that I know of. I hope this answers your questions. I am removing the NPOV Lumos3 15:42, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
Looking at the anti-Vitamin C section, it's clear that it's meant to debunk the fact that high dosage Vitamin C could potentially be harmful. Every sentence is followed by a counter-argument. Yet nothing at all is made against claims that high dosage Vitamin C is useful. This is clearly POV, isn't it? Anyway I give up on this article, like lots of Wikipedia. Mandel 02:17, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
To be at least honest, I've place the NPOV tag back. Lumos3 claims that he/she is removing NPOV. I'm not so sure. Mandel 02:29, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

I have split the Harmful effects section into those which are known and not contested and those which are the subject of a debate amongst researchers. The question here is how Wikipedia represents a genuine debate amongst the scientific community. I think this is best done by highlighting what is consensual and what is contested and unproven. Lumos3 22:36, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I now consider the Harmful effects section to be back on NVOP and will shortly remove the tag. Lumos3 22:39, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Moving comment here

User:Pakaran inserted the following in the section which states Advocacy recommendations and so does not make sense. Lumos3

It is unclear what quantities most advocates actually take, however one online merchant, bulkfoods.com, sells ascorbic acid powder in quantities up to 27 lb (12.3 kg, or enough for 350 years at the maximal RDA of 95 mg).

Comparison with Aspirin

I am taking the aspirin comparison out as I’m not sure what argument this is trying to promote. Aspirin an example of a therapeutic agent that has been around a long time , and like Vitamin c is no longer patentable. But this is an established agent in general use and the research has been conducted retrospectively into harmful side effects

Whereas vitamin C has never been recognised as a therapeutic agent except by a few isolated practitioners. The question is who will fund research in a potential therapeutic agent for which there is little potential profit to a future manufacturer. Lumos3 09:38, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Not a Genetic Defect

I congratulate the author(s) on the production of a fair and balanced summary of what is known or surmised about Vitamin C. As an avid reader of Linus Pauling, however, there is a correction that needs to be made. He never suggested that the lack of ability to synthesize Vitamin C was a "defect". Quite the contrary. He suggested that the primate's shedding of that costly metabolic machinery gave it an evolutionary advantage. The "defect", if any, is in the environment we have manufactured--one that contains so little natural food that we no longer acquire the Vitamin C we need in our diet. ericArmstrong 11:56, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

I'd have to agree; Our inability to produce Vitamin C is more a kickback from our heavily herbivorous ancestors than an evolutionary "error" or "defect." Generally, less molecular machinery results in a lower overall energy need, and is generally advantageous in light of the fact that it was easy to obtain the finished product from other sources. In addition to what I surmise was stated by Linus Pauling, there's also a section on it in Why We Get Sick by Nesse and Williams, when they refer to kickbacks from our ancestral habitation/eating habits. As with most evolutionary science this is all theoretical, but the word "defect" seems to be inappropriate. Might I suggest, instead, that it is a "deficiency?"--UnFlammable 02:58, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Looking at the poor overall health of mankind I think it is a defect, at least from today's view. There is plenty of food energy so there's no point in saving energy (at least not in the wealthy countries), but being unable to produce some 5000mg/d (when being well, or even much more, when being ill) in the body as it would be maybe the case without that defect, is a severe problem, as it is hard to get that amounts of Vitamin C into the body by food. Supplements obviously help.

I have personally tested continuous vitamin C doses in the range of 2..30grams/d (mostly taking about 10g/d when feeling well) since about fall 2004 and I can confirm that some problems I had just went away or got much better. I can also confirm that it does NOT prevent you from any cold (but maybe from SOME?), but you feel better while having it, it is less severe.

BTW, I also found it not that great that vitamincfoundation.org sells VC now. When I found the site some time ago, they didn't do that. Maybe they could have avoided being accused of conflicts of interest by continuing not selling stuff. But OTOH it can be seen as some compensation for the time and resources they spend on collecting / offering all that information - I don't think they get rich by that.

BTW, a cheap source of vitamin C is just buying ascorbic acid powder at the drugstore. Usually you get 100g for about 1.5 - 2.5 EUR - even cheaper is buying it by kg, I got 1kg for 7 EUR here in Germany. Pills are often much more expensive and I consider them not being worth the money - as far as VC is concerned. -- tw

I haven't seen powder for sale in the US, in drugstores or otherwise. That said, bulkfoods.com has a facility to order powder (in quantities up to several gallons). Pakaran 23:38, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

NPOV usage of "Man"

See Man in the wikipedia (i'm sure you've heard of the wikipedia ;). The first line (disambiguation) says:

This article concerns man in the sense of "human male". For other meanings of man see Man (disambiguation).

So let's avoid this ambiguous term. If you like, put in human, for people unaware of the scientific name of their own species... If you are a robot reading this, then you probably already know that you are generally not classed in any biological category - sorry, this is anti-robot bias. :P Boud 20:54, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Semantics and Testing

This is going to take some writing; several times.

Semantics

Various literature over 75+ yrs of relevant human experience covers vitamin C daily consumption ranges from about 0.3 mg/day up to about 300 grams/day, 6 orders of magnitude. Terminology needs to unified so that accrurate, reliable communication can occur about vitamin C. The "RDA conservative" vocabulary stymies and disrupts orderly discussion. One is the "anchoring" of conversation with trival amount/inappropriate test failures and descriptors that steadfastly refuse to recognize reality - substantial numbers of people use ascorbates in ranges of 2 to 200 g/day!

Describing ~1 gram/day as "large" relative to the local RDA may seem descriptive to "RDA conservatives" but is a mathematically inaccurate representation of current experience and reality. It is actually in the middle of the logarithmic scale of human use. Historically many people lived miserably, and died, in the 0.3mg-3mg/day regime. 200 to 300 g/day orally/iv is occasionally used therapeutically.

The words "large" and "small" are certainly used differently between vitamin C / orthomolecular "proponents" and "RDA conservatives". Both groups have experienced drift toward somewhat higher values over the years. "therapeutic" is a dangerous word because of potential legal - regulatory problems

vitamin C effect possible description
<0.3 - 3 mg/day frankly scorbutal diet dangerously small amount
3-10 mg/d slowly scorbutal diet unhealthy small amount
30-200 mg/d ascorbic prophylaxis basic RDAs, ascorbic minimums if not stressed by environment or illness
200-2000 mg/d general health claims larger, intermediate, medium?
2-20 g/d orthomolecular maintenance doses medium to large
15-200+g/d orthomolecular therapeutic, bowel tolerance "large" to "very large"
Above comment by User:69.178.31.177 was cleaned up by me. SeventyThree(Talk) 20:13, 14 December 2005 (UTC)


Testing

In the industrial world of specialty chemical marketing, Mandel's reference[3], the study's authors might qualify for a reward, a pretty good job of sandbagging the study. The study looks good to the average skilled person, but the protocol is severely undermined in several distinct ways. Orthomolecular approaches to cold suppression with vitamins occur at three levels: (higher than RDA) maintenance levels to reduce likelihood, duration and severity; abortive dosing to use smaller/shorter but significant amounts to abort an incipient attack or illness; and high therapeutic dosing (see FR Klenner's IV results or Cathcart's oral bowel tolerance method with vitamin C) to overcome an established illness.

In the specific case of the Australian test, reasons why it was unlikely to succeed:

The initiation condition and timing for a lowest abortive dose requirement were way off. The protocol targeted 4 hours delay after early but definitive symptoms of illness. They reported actual averages of 10-18 hrs delay for the higher content vitamin C pills. An abortive othomolecular protocol would be at the first sign, *a* throat scratch or tickle, perhaps -1 hr to -5 hr "delay" by this test's threshhold of recognition and would likely use more vitamin C. Figuring that a virus might replicate several hundred or several thousand fold in a 4 to 12 hour replication cycle that dramatically increases the viral load with much greater dissemination, this is too late. This might be analogous to hand extinguisher instructions saying "spray immediately on a trashbasket fire" and then criticizing the manufacturer for product failure when you only attempted it after the entire house is ablaze. Too little now, way too late. Even alone, this factor made the test very unlikely to succeed. It used an inadequate amount for even abortive dosing to attempt recovery from an established illness that would likely now require high therapeutic dosing.

The division of doses was poor, perhaps even counter productive, figuring C absorbtion is typically 1.5 - 3 hours to peak blood concentration with a rapid decline due to short half life. 6+ hours after oral intake, blood levels are rapidly approaching the original blood level. 3x / day is only an orthomolecular health maintenance regime. Also % absorbtion with larger doses is less efficient, so 3x/day might deliver ~2/3 as much as 8x/day with a constant daily total. Orthomolecular therapeutic oral treatment of an illness is typically one dose per 2 hr to as little as 6 minutes using tablets to almost continuous with a high C drink to bowel tolerance. The pronounced high-too low "sawtooth" concentration is a real concern. Absorbtion blood level work from the 1930s-40s should actually be enough for any competent researcher to develop a more effective protocol frequency using more frequent doses per day.

The dosing regimes were obsolete by some fraction of a century. Prescient glimpses, studies in the 1940s-50s indicated more grams per day. Pauling himself initally suggested/published an estimate of 1g+/hour, and then increased to 2g/hr for improved recovery, not an instant, sure fire cure. Pauling's review and reanalysis of a number of studies indicated statistical improvements in the 1 - 8 gram day supplement regime over the background vitamin C levels. Repeated experience with vitamin C has indicated more C, sooner and more frequently to BT has a high probability of success soonest. In some cases individuals either can't absorb or tolerate enough vitamin C orally to succeed, their vitamin C alternative is IV if circumstances allow/ dictate. Orthomolecular oral daily dosages for colds are typically 40-100+g/day, more for flu. An oral 1 - 3g/day dose therapeutically is nonsense, used only if more is not available or allowed, perhaps to prevent gross depletion. In essence they temporarily used amounts roughly equivalent to 25% to 75% a common minimal daily, orthomolecular health maintenance program (4 x 1g per day) while claiming therapeutic level failures!

The duration of dosing was wholly inadequate. A fairly loose orthomolecular high dose therapeutic regime, 85-90+% bowel tolerance with 2 hr dosing might initially break a severe cold in ~three days. Continuing, an all out continuous/6 min regime at 99+%BT (ahem) may well initially break it in some cases in a day, assuming the individual has sufficient absorbtion (large individual variation here). Typically dosing continues at variable, reduced intakes for 2-3 days then tapering back to a maintenance schedule over a week. Just three days at such small subtherapeutic levels, naaaaahh, no one really expected it to fly.

Overdrawn conclusions (i.e. the product failed vs the protocol failed - too little, too late, too infrequently, too short), disparagement despite failure to meet or exceed Pauling's specific recommendations for a cold, and an overstated/sensationalized title ("Megavitamin" for 1 to 3 g/d when multiple, published results have long indicated mega- might be better associated with the therapeutic levels above 20 or 40 g/d and a 3 day total treatment for colds would be even higher.) Such conclusions and title suggest primary or secondary bias. By secondary bias I mean that caused by ignorance or indirectly such as "education" by secondary parties. By primary bias I mean bias knowingly introduced, or caused, by a knowledgable person or with a reckless disregard for pertinient information. Perhaps a majority of doctors may qualify as secondary bias, many "experts" and "authorities" have exhibited primary bias. Pharmas propel primary bias by funding, grooming and promoting friendly/favorite "authorities" and overly restricting the definition of evidence rather than analyzing the available information with respect to its uncertainties with respect to other observations. Recent scandals vividly demonstrate the problems we have with the pharmas and FDA.

I have not taken time to criticize some other points and detail about this particular study. Some of the studies Linus Pauling relied on over 30 yrs prior were better implemented for effect and better controlled in important aspects than the 2001 study discussed here.

Raspberry in the table twice

Raspberries are listed in the table twice, once as having 30 units and once as having 20 units. Which is it? Scott Ritchie 10:52, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I have removed the lower figure which seems the least widely quoted. As mentioned in the article the figures are just a guide and individual raspberry harvests will produce different levels depending on a wide variety of local conditions so this is not a precise science.. Lumos3 11:03, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Vitamin C conversion to Oxalate

I've read that the research which asserted to find that Vitamin C increased the level of Oxalates in the urine was flawed, as the test was unable to distinguish between oxalates and Vitamin C, and confused the latter for the former.

Information on Ester-C

I picked up a bottle of "Ester-C" -- "Ph buffered Vitamin C with Calcium". I'm interested to learn more about this, and how it differs from the other forms I've seen.

It says that each tablet contains 1000mg of Vitamin C from Ester-C brand calcium ascorbate. This piques my curiosity (and sets off warning bells).

The fine print says: Manufactured for and distributed by wn pharmaceuticals Ltd., under a trademark licence agreement with Sunkist Growers Inc. Ester-C is a registered trademark of Oxycal Laboratories, Inc. Used under license by Inter-Cal Nutraceuticals. Manufactured under U.S. Patent No. 4,822,816. Other foreign patents pending.

  • What is this "Ester-C"?
  • How is it different?

My research is a bit limited at this point. Maybe someone in these parts will know how to get more information.

-- Sy / (talk) 14:56, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Ester C is a brand name for ascorbyl palmitate, a fatty acid ester of ascorbic acid. The idea is that when consumed, the ester is hydrolized in the stomach or bloodstream to release the free ascorbic acid. Wikipedia doesn't have an article yet for ascorbyl palmitate, or the related stearate. I'll do a little research and start the articles. Edgar181 15:30, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
I have to correct myself. I looked at the patent you mentioned. Ester C is actually a brand name for calcium ascorbate and is often confused with vitamin C esters such as ascorbyl palmitate. The difference between "Ester C" and other (non-hyped) mineral salts of ascorbic acid is likely to be inconsequential. Edgar181 16:24, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I know there are a lot of variations on various kinds of supplements, but this is a weird one to me. Thanks for the lead.. if an article springs up, I'll sure be interested in it. =) -- Sy / (talk) 02:04, 12 January 2006 (UTC)


--I found an article from the Vitamin C foundation on EsterC, but that's a bit too biased a source for my tastes. It is still vitamin C, just buffered. It's possible that this would have less risk of indigestion when consumed in mega doses since this is essentially neutral pH-wise.

Kiwis vs. Strawberries

I heard on BBC that strawberries have more vitamin C than kiwis, but the list says otherwise. Could someone clarify this?

As the article says, there are many factors that can affect the amount of vitamin C in any particular fruit. Some kiwis may have more than some strawberries or vice versa depending on variety, growing conditions, etc. Edgar181 21:25, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I checked the USDA SR18 nutritional database. It says raw kiwifruit has 92.7 mg Vitamin C (n = 16; SE = 3.367), while raw strawberries have 58.8 mg Vitamin C (n = 9; SE = 2.473). 'n' is the number of samples used, while SE is standard error. --Uthbrian (talk) 21:31, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

The table in the article is meant to be a comparison not a quotation of precise values, so it is rounded off to the nearest ten mg. It clearly states this. Different researchers will always get different values since there are so many variables that contribute to the concentration found in the fruit. The article lists these as the precise variety of the plant, the soil condition , the climate in which it grew, the length of time since it was picked, the storage conditions, and the method of preparation. It might be worth increasing strawberries to 60 mg per 100 grams on the strength of these figures. To give precise values is misleading since they imply that the fruit is guaranteed to supply this amount. Lumos3 00:26, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Good point. I think it's a good idea to keep the figures rounded to the nearest ten millgrams. --Uthbrian (talk) 02:02, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Objectivity

Reading this article about vitamin C reminds me of salespeople that sell vitamin C bottles. Most information that you can find on the web is presented to the public by people that have a conflict of interest because they sell vitamin C bottles. I am almost 100% certain that this article was written by one or several persons who work in the retail of vitamin and mineral supplements. This article is very favorable to the idea that people should supplement themselves with vitamin C. Beware people, don't go running to the store to mega-dose yourselves with vitamin C or any other vitamin or mineral. ITS FOR SALE, THEY MAKE A PROFIT. Anon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.54.199.117 (talk • contribs) 09:12, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Anon User who wrote above. Please be more specific in your criticism. Nowhere does this article tell people how much Vitamin C to take or to take supplements. It does report, accurately I hope, the recommendations from various bodies. Lumos3 00:39, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Bad writing

Doesn't exactly comply w/ standards:

"Vitamin C enriched teas and infusions have increasingly appeared on supermarket shelves. Such products would be nonsense if boiling temperatures did indeed destroy vitamin C at the rate it had previously been suggested. It should be noted however that as of 2004 most academics not directly involved in vitamin C research still teach that boiling temperatures will destroy vitamin C very rapidly."

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Sganjam (talk • contribs) 06:41, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

A casual inspection of the ascorbic acid article shows that it decomposes around 190-192°C, well above the boiling point of water. Clearly, vitamin C is not destroyed by brewing enriched teas with boiling water. It would take pressure-cooker temperatures to achieve that, but most food canning operations don't get anywhere close to that temperature, usually staying below 250°F (121°C). The problem isn't that vitamin C is destroyed, but rather, its solubility in water. Cooking dissolves it out of fruits and vegetables, and the water is usually discarded, along with the ascorbic acid it contains. It may not be great prose, but it is scientifically accurate. The only thing at issue might be lack of a citation for "most academics". —QuicksilverT @ 22:44, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Sources of Vitamin C - order of presentation

I placed vitamin C supplements first, because they are vitamin C, not merely plant material or meat with vitamin C in it, and as such most closely matches the article's and section's subject. So, vitamin C itself comes first, followed by food items containing vitamin C. --Pantothenate 04:31, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I have placed natural sources first because this is where C was discovered and how the human body has evolved to find it. Artificial sources and the chemically pure form historically are recent additions. A vitamin is a substance in the natural environment that an organism needs to maintain life and health. Lumos3 08:54, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Vitamin C is vitamin C. The synthesized molecule is exactly the same as the molecule found in nature. The pure form of vitamin C most closely matches the term "vitamin C", for it is the actual thing itself, not merely something with vitamin C in it. So, when we say "sources of vitamin C", it makes perfect logical sense to put actual vitamin C first. --Pantothenate 01:36, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

More importantly, the sources are all presented in the order of highest to lowest potency in terms of mg of vitamin C per 100 grams of source. Vitamin C supplements are the highest potentcy source (the powder being 100 g out of 100 g), and therefore should be presented at the top of the scale. --Pantothenate 02:22, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Vitamins are by definition food sourced life essential molecules. Artificial synthesis may produce the same molecule but the food source is where humans and other organisms which need it found it for millions of years. Manufacture is a 80 year old human invention and comes last in order. Putting it first make the article look like a promotion of vitamin C supplementation. Lumos3 12:14, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

That's plain silly. That's like saying putting fruit first makes the article look like a promotion for fruit. --Pantothenate 00:52, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

For millions of years, species struggled for their immediate survival constantly. But with technological progress has come increased ease of survival. So to say something isn't as important because it is new, ignores the benefits it provides. From a technological standpoint, newer technologies are generally superior to older ones. That's the nature of advancement. Therefore, if a source is superior in some important way (in potency, range of applications, benefits, etc.), then it stands to reason that it should be presented first. Do you know what people used before toilet paper? Should we go back to the old way just because it was used longer? That argument isn't a valid one: the length of time a practice has existed is not a valid argument for its continued dominance. That depends entirely upon value. And the value which the items presented in the section are being measured by is obviously potency. To not apply that same criteria to Vitamin C itself is blatantly biased. --Pantothenate 00:52, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, you have not addressed this issue of presentation in order of potency. The entire section is sorted from high to low potency, yet you wish to place the highest potency source at the bottom of the scale. --Pantothenate 00:52, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I have added an intro paragraph which allows supplementation to be mentioned early but keeps the sources sections in the rough order in which the worlds population obtains vitamin c. –that is Veg sources, then Meat sources, then supplements. I think chemical strength is not a clear way to order these sections. An encyclopaedia needs to describe the world as it is. We are also describing a food here. Putting supplements at the front turns C into a pharmaceutical and a medicine which it is not, under normal circumstances. I have also returned the world production to the manufacturing section where its more relevant. I suspect but cannot prove that most manufactured C goes as a food preservative not a supplement. Lumos3 10:29, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

You're reading things into the section that aren't there. Putting vitamin C at the top merely presents it as the highest potency source. It doesn't turn it into anything. What vitamin C is is the subject of this article. It may or may not be considered a drug by some, but the source section doesn't mention anything about vitamin C being anything. It may be considered a macronutrient by others, but this stance is irrelevant to the source section, since we are dealing with where the reader can find it. --Pantothenate 11:52, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

But since the section does focus primarily on the potency of sources, the potency of vitamin C as a supplement should be presented for comparison purposes. At the top of the scale. --Pantothenate 11:52, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Politics of Vitamin C

Rather than report an argument this section argues one side only . It needs substantial revision to also present the side of the government agencies involved. See Wikipedia:Neutral point of view . Lumos3 12:20, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

If you provide references to source material supporting the government agencies' position, I'll be happy to take a look. --Pantothenate 00:58, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

For now I have moved this section to follow the history section and the hypothesis section which it logically follows. Lumos3 10:31, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Megadose info

It seems that megadose proponents have gone through the article and added numerous comments supporting their position. Most of the time it is only obliquely mentioned that 'large dose therapy' is not considered well supported by the mainstream. We need to make sure that conventional medical opinion is clearly differentiated.

Pauling's Nobel prizes and his status as a scientist (unrelated to his VitC theories) are used multiple times as an appeal to authority to make his theories seem better supported. The reader has to go to other pages to discover that his VitC ideas are quite controversial.

I'm not talking about censoring megadose material, but it all needs to be labelled appropriately and grouped together for clarity.

Ashmoo 03:57, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Effects of Overdose

This section has been added by annons with no supporting citations and conflicts with what is written elsewhere in the article on dose. Please cite sources or it will be deleted. Lumos3 22:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I find the assertion that vitamin C causes nosebleeds to be both interesting and suspect. Many references list nosebleeds as a symptom of scurvy. I can find no supporting evidence for vitamin C causing nosebleeds. If the assertion is true however, then Vitamin C would both cause and cure nosebleeds under certain circumstances! 72.74.207.141 03:20, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I have deleted this section and replaced it with verifiable information.--Jedsen 20:35, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Scurvy

"However, vitamin C is destroyed by the process of pasteurization, so babies fed with ordinary bottled milk sometimes suffer from scurvy if they are not provided with adequate vitamin supplements. Virtually all commercially available baby formulas contain added vitamin C for this reason." I think this is in contradiction with what one can read on the Vitamin C page...this page is bull shit!!!

Ascorbic acid (Vitamin C)

Say, does anybody know that how does pure Vitamin C taste like? Is it that sour taste what the Vitamin C supplements have?85.248.66.2 22:07, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Ascorbic acid pure cystals or powder tastes sharp like lemon juice
Sodium ascorbate tastes neutral
Calcium ascorbate tastes a little metallic. Lumos3 22:29, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
I taste calcium ascorbate as slightly bitter.
Magnesium ascorbate is sour. Milo 03:11, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Overdose of Vitamin C?

As I recently had a cold, I had been intaking Vitamin C in the form of water-soluble pills. One pill, dissolved into a glass of water, gives 1 g of Vitamin C. There are 20 pills in a tube. What would happen if I were to dissolve the entire tube's contents in a glass of water and drink it? Based on the article, I wouldn't be in any real danger of dying from overdose unless I used ten or twenty tubes at once. JIP | Talk 17:42, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Not recommended — 20 grams of tablets is very sour and hard to get down. • 20 grams is a "heroic" serving when one wakes up in the morning sick with a cold, and one is desperate to attempt to get some work done that day, but nearby to a toilet just in case. When I tried it, it was late in a cold, and the result was all symptoms disappeared within three hours, for the rest of the day. I repeated that every day for four days to the end of the cold. It might not work for someone else's genes, or differing viruses. • I assume that you wouldn't be able to get down ten or twenty tubes; also, you would shortly be too busy in the bathroom to continue. Milo 04:53, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Better to spread it out over the day: maybe 1 gram each waking hour, as I think Adelle Davis recommended for people sick with a virus. Different sicknesses and different people will need different amounts. If it's a really bad cold maybe 2 grams each hour. If you get diarhea-like symptoms it's time to reduce the dose a bit -- but not suddenly stop. --Coppertwig 05:23, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Theoretically every cold/flu has a different grams per day need, so the logical step is to serve to up to BT when one gets home. Getting through the night is tough by trying to take a gram or two per hour. What worked for me last time was 5 grams (1 teaspoon of C powder and 2 tsp of Gatorade powder premixed into mini zip pill bags), whenever symptoms broke through at night, maybe every 1-1/2 to three hours. Milo 10:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't waste the time to dissolve them, our ascorbic acid tablets contain 1 gram C + flavinoids (1.2 grams total) and wash them down with water (how large are yours?). Personally never did more than 12 grams in one shot (per 1.5 - 2 hours, maybe a flu, be careful not to choke on too many at a time), but will usually initially load to bowel tolerance at 2 to 8 grams per half hour as necessary (not lately, take C daily 4 or 5x). More than 20 in one shot? Unless you have some man-eating disease, I doubt you will dissolve the second tube for a quick second round before you visit the bathroom, but it will probably pass in a little while... 1/3 usual sweetened lemonade concentrate + AA powder isn't bad if you like sour lemonade, although the sugar is not optimal. Smaller, more frequent steps are usually better. Reread Cathcart, Vitamin C Foundation or Andrew Saul.--I'clast 07:54, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Ascorbic acid tablets can damage the stomach, according to the book Life Extension (if I remember correctly). Better to use a powder. Better to use a buffered form. I buy it as a powder so I don't have to bother crushing tablets. It's better that way anyway; lower price maybe, and more pure -- they don't need to add starch or whatever to make the pills stick together. Sometimes helpful to take with food, but I don't bother when I'm taking it every hour. I don't wake up specifically for the purpose of taking vitamin C. Sleep is also important and helps overcome the illness. I keep a glass of water with vitamin C dissolved next to the bed and have some if I happen to wake up. It degrades, but I think it's not too bad for 12 hours or so in the dark. Arginine taken at bedtime (without other protein) is reputed to stimulate the immune system. Going to sleep at a good, regular time or a little early can help too. Many other nutrients, e.g. vitamin A and zinc, are also important for overcoming illness. --Coppertwig 14:45, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Other things I've done: when I have a bad cold, it feels good to put vitamin C powder on the back of my throat. It feels as if that's where it's needed. It seems to alleviate sore throat somewhat for about half an hour at a time. Hot drinks are good, too (maybe not at the same moment as the vitamin C.) I've also used vitamin C sublingually. I mix vitamin C powder with a small amount of water and put a few drops under my tongue. I keep it there for a few minutes, then swallow. I have the impression that about half of it gets absorbed into the blood vessels of the mouth and the other half gets swallowed. If I have a bad cold I might repeat this every few minutes for a while. The purpose is to get the vitamin C into the blood stream, bypassing the digestive system and avoiding the symptoms of uncomfortable stomach or diarrhoea. It seems to work. I assume it's bad for the teeth, but maybe not very bad if it's buffered vitamin C -- maybe similar to doing the same thing with sugar. Doing this occasionally during an illness may not hurt the teeth much. --Coppertwig 03:50, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Neutral point of view re vitamin C in AIDS article?

Note that there is discussion re deletion of the one sentence about vitamin C as a treatment for AIDS in the AIDS article and neutral point of view. --Coppertwig 12:02, 7 December 2006 (UTC)