Talk:Unternehmen Bodenplatte

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

MILHIST This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see lists of open tasks and regional and topical task forces. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.

Hello,

My name is David and I am writing a book about Operation Bodenplatte. I would love hearing from anyone in this forum about the operation, and I seek veterans of this conflict or anyone with first or second-hand information to speak up.

Cordially,

David


--- As per the German Wiki and other sources I beleive Operation Hermann should be copied into the Operation Bodenplatte article, and this page be made an redirect. I will do so within the next day or so unless there are protests. Abel29a 23:10, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Formating

Added three infoboxes to the article, and now the edit buttons for three of the headlines are placed on top op the table(at least in Opera 9.02.) My Wiki-Fu is not yet strong enough to fix this - anybody know how to properly code this thing? Abel29a 02:16, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name and terminology

I have moved the article for two reasons: (1) "Operation Bodenplatte" is Denglish rather than a correct English or German name. (2) The common translation is "Operation Baseplate" (refer Google search), rather than "Ground Plate". I have also cleaned up some of the terminology, into the correct British and US military forms. Regards, Grant | Talk 10:05, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Good call. I didn't even think about this when I was working on the article Abel29a 20:18, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Hi there, just corrected a translation error: mäßig (as stated in the german wiki) = moderate, medium. Not Massiv. In the german wiki the terminology was critisised for not beeing suitable in connection with destruction. Also it would be to vague to be used in an encyclpedia. However, the author of the source, Werner Girbig (Start im Morgengrauen), used just this terminology in his extentensivly researched book. The term medium destruction will probably is more neutral.
On the issue of Operation vs. Unternehmen (directly translates as untertaking) I fully agree with the editors. While Unternehmen is suitable for the majority of operations of the german wehrmacht during WW2 (like Unternehmen Taifun, Unternehmen Barbarossa, Unternehmen Zitadelle etc.), the term Operation seems to fit for most of the allied undertakings (!?).
To make things interesting, the german wehrmacht used the codeword Fall (case) for some of their operations, like Fall Gelb for what was commonly called Westfeldzug, the term Feldzug describing a limited military operation within a greater war (the closest english term I can think of is raid). Fall Weiß=Polenfeldzug, Fall Rot=Frankreichfeldzug, Fall Blau=Kaukasusfeldzug. The Fall+Color coding got somewhat mixed up when Fall Barbarossa and Unternehmen Barbarossa was both used for the attack on the soviet union in 1941. The Fall Blau in 1942 was the last operation using the color coding that I know of. The transition can be seen in the chronolgy: mid 1941 Fall/Unternehmen Barbarossa, end 1941 Unternehmen Taifun (moskow), early 1942 Fall Blau (for the last time), from there on only Unternehmen + codeword (no color).
As for Galland, I would like to point out that he was removed from his position as supreme commander of the day-fighters in early 1945, but kept his rank as Generalleutnant (Lieutenant General US, respectivly Air Marshall RAF). He returned to activ combat duty on own will and was given command of the most famous jetfighter unit of the war, the Jagdverband 44. Reading the article one may think he was degraded, which was not the case. Just for info, best regards and thanks for noting,--Greenx 10:46, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Polish Air Force units

...should not be credited in the combatant box. They were not fully independent units. They were always subordinate to the RAF. The fact that they were (may have been) answerable to the Polish government in exile is irrelevant. Dapi89 (talk) 18:14, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

??The Poles were proud to serve in the RAF, they served heroically and well (in spite of which treated extremely badly post war by a government who wanted to stay cosy with "Uncle Joe"), they were combatants, the airfield on which their units were based was a target, so what's the problem?Minorhistorian (talk) 23:31, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Your missing the point. That is completely irrelevant. Dapi89 (talk) 12:12, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

It was I that changed it. For a similar case, see the intro and battlebox in Invasion of Normandy. The "problem" is Polish airmen were officially recognised by the RAF as members of a separate air force. See Polish_Air_Forces_in_France_and_Great_Britain#History:

Initially the Polish airmen were compelled to wear British uniforms, fly British flags and pass two oaths, one to the Polish government and the other to King George VI of the United Kingdom. However, after the evacuation of the BEF from Dunkirk and the arrival of hundreds of Polish airmen from France, the situation changed. On August 5, 1940, the British government finally accepted the Polish Air Force as a sovereign, allied military formation. From then on the airmen were part of the Polish Army, flying their own standards and wearing British uniforms but with Polish rank insignia. Although still subordinate to British command, the Polish units were directly subordinate to a Polish inspector of the Air Forces, who in turn was responsible to the Polish government.

I think the logic is inescapable. And on further reflection, I think it is clear that — as well as Poland — Canada and New Zealand should be listed here as well, since the RCAF and RNZAF participated, in the form of units of other sovereign countries, under RAF operational control. (Whereas, in this instance, Australian/RAAF units did not.) Regards, Grant 03:57, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with logic. My problem is that there isn't a single citation on that page that indicates the P.A.Fs were indeed given sovereignty. The "citationless" text also mentions that they were answerable to the RAF, as they flew RAF machines, in RAF units. It appears they only had minimal autonomy. I wanted proper accreditation, that's all. Dapi89 (talk) 12:12, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Michael Alfred Peszke appears to be the leading authority regarding the agreement of August 5, 1940 (and note the significance of that date). Here are two articles by him that support the above interpretation:
  • "An Introduction to English-Language Literature on the Polish Armed Forces in World War II" The Journal of Military History v70, n4 (Oct. 2006), pp. 1029-1064.
  • "A Synopsis of Polish-Allied Military Agreements During World War Two" Military Affairs, v 44, n3 (Oct. 1980), pp. 128-134.
Grant 13:59, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I take it you found these on JSTOR? Fair enough. Then please add the proper reference Grant, it appears the entry was legitimate. Dapi89 (talk) 14:57, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I see what you mean; I was working under a mistaken impression, apologies for that. The article does need some references and citation to indicate where the information comes from. I forgot to show a reference for the section about Galland being sacked then reinstated, so I'll add that.Minorhistorian (talk) 23:02, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
By way of background, several months ago I was sceptical regarding the claims of Polish sovereignty in 1940-45, until I checked this for myself. I don't have access to online subscriptions or ready access to the paper journals for the next few weeks. Regards, Grant 00:18, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

That's okay, I do, so I'll "wack 'em in". Dapi89 (talk) 17:21, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Cheers, Grant 07:09, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ranks

I notice that ranks of equivalent air forces are added in brackets in the main text. I think this clutters up the main text. If a reader wants to know more, they simpy have to click on the links provided (I note also that the equivalent ranks are listed in those articles anyway). Agreed? Dapi89 (talk) 14:04, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

The original version of the paragraph was even more confusing, the Allied ranks weren't accurate and there wasn't a footnote explaining the differences between Luftwaffe positions and Allied ranks (not everyone is going to bother to look at the Wiki articles on the Geshwaderkommodore etc). I adjusted the paragraph accordingly. However, I think it clutters up the text, although the footnote should probably stay.Minorhistorian (talk) 04:32, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] List of Allied aircraft lost.

Looking good, apart from two things: Flg. Off. Fraser of 439 Squadron RCAF was not shot down; the official 439 Sqn log and the "Unofficial Squadron History" http://www.rcaf.com/439squadron/TIGER/439Hist_e-95.htm show that the only aircraft of the unit lost in the air was that of Flg. Off. Angelini. In fact Fraser claimed two German aircraft, more than likely from JG 3.

Second, I doubt if the rank for David Johnson of 366 FG was Flying Officer, unless he was seconded from the RAF. Worth checking on. Minorhistorian (talk) 01:11, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Start Class?

I think the detail on this article deserves more than a start class classification. Dapi89 (talk) 11:42, 13 March 2008 (UTC)