Talk:Transsexualism

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[edit] Psychological treatment

i velive this section rarely contains information about the actuall process. It would be great to have some references from a medical aspect here. besides that, great article! 88.73.249.4 (talk) 23:07, 23 January 2008 (UTC) aep

[edit] Diagnosis

This section is unclear. If you use the medical model of diagnosis, as a minimum I would recommend giving some "gold standards" for diagnosis, with statements such as "People with HBS must have..." or "People who ... definitely do not have Harry Benjamin Syndrome" I realize that this is difficult if there is no common anatomic, genetic, or biochemical characteristics, or are there? There is an assertion that the brains of Harry Bejamin Syndrome individuals are different. Can you provide referrences to what these differences are, with PMID numbers?75.5.228.202 22:52, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

SusannaBoudrie: "The psycho-patologization of transsexualism by APA and WHO (ICD10) is unfounded. The condition is somatic, but (still) not diagnosable in live humans. Hence even their own manuals make this an auto-diagnose; not validated in itself, only validated not being another (sic!) mental disorder." SusannaBoudrie (talk) 04:10, 5 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Voyagerfan5761 (talk • contribs)

SusannaBoudrie: "According to numerous researchers transsexualism is hard-wired in the brain during the development of the hypothalamus. People with Transsexualism men and women desire to become men and women in all respects, by physical alterations of their sexual gonads sexual reassignment surgery and by Hormone replacement therapy. The entire process of switching from one sex to the other is referred to as transition, and usually takes several years. This treatment resolves the transsexualism, and post-treatment we are talking about Men-born with-transsexualism [MBT] and Women-born with-Transsexualism [WBT]" SusannaBoudrie (talk) 04:18, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the idea that transexualism is based on hypothalamus structure is very shaky at this point; it's based on three preliminary studies which looked at a very small number of male-to-female transexuals only. It's legitimate and intriguing research, but absolutely not conclusive and absolutely not "numerous researchers". --71.108.187.136 (talk) 22:17, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Adding Smith vs. City of Salem to Employment issues sections

Recently, the court case of Smith vs. Salem took place in the sixth circuit court. This case used a supreme court ruling to extend the definition of sex into the realm of gender, and with it include transgender as a protected class. I think this has merit for inclusion in the employment issues section. What do you think? Link to the opinion:[1]. This is another useful document: [2] LexieM 01:54, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

it's an interesting read, and is actually already covered by Legal aspects of transsexualism. Reading the brief, it does not actually seem as if they have extended any recognition to transsexuals as their target gender, but rather that discriminating against someone for not following the stereotypes provided for their gender is inappropriate, and the document refers to Smith throughout as a "male", albeit as an identified "transsexual", and "medically diagnosed with Gender Identity Disorder". Now, what this does do is create a rock and a hard place for employers (who are subject to Title VII) regarding dismissing a transsexual. The employer cannot dismiss a transsexual as their original gender for expressing themselves as their gender of identity, but it's pretty certain that they wouldn't be able to dismiss a transsexual as their gender of identity, because if they had the job before, then they were qualified for the job, and the only thing that has changed is their sex. Thus, if a employer were to attempt to dismiss them simply for assuming the new gender, they would be by definition firing someone based on their sex. So, I rather see this decision as a boon to transgendered people who are not intending on altering their legal gender, and as protection for transgendered people who are intending on changing their legal gender, but have yet to do so. In many cases though, the courts rulings on what a person's legal gender is can vary from state to state, from courthouse to courthouse and from judge to judge. --Puellanivis 18:12, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
The Legal aspects of transsexualism article should be liked to in the Employment Issues section as it contains much more information. But do you think we should make specific reference to Smith vs. Salem in this article because of its importance as the only decision on the US federal level that possibly offers protection? LexieM 01:08, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
That sounds certainly reasonable. Please feel free to work up a short mention of the protection that it offers us, and then either post it here, or post it into the article. You can leave it with "for more information see Legal aspects of transsexualism" or something like that. I think it would certainly be helpful information. --Puellanivis 07:21, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Human Rights Law in Britain that were pivitol indefining transsexual right in Britain

There were two defining moments in the development of the Human Rights of British transsexual’s that are overlooked in a Wiki that is being written by Americans for the enlightenment of Americans about the United States.

A, D & G v N.W.Lancs Health Authority 1999. The litigants challenged the practice within the National Health Service of Health Authorities funding only psychotherapy but not surgery. The court ruled against N.W.Lancs Health Authority with as a consequence the state health care system must fund gender reassignment surgery. This case is now core study for students studying health law in British universities.

Gender Recognition Act (2005) that allows transsexual’s to apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate. This permits the recipient to apply for a new birth certificate issued in their preferred gender and dated from their birth and to marry a member of the opposite gender

Claire Eastwood —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.175.137 (talk) 14:59, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] the "Coming Out" Section

A noticable problem with the current page is the "Coming Out" section, which is currently empty. Although there is already a page on coming out it deals only briefly with transsexuals.

I suggest this section include:

  • Coming out Process
  • Stages of Coming out
    • To Health Care Proffessionals
    • To Family
    • To Friends / Socially
    • To employers / At work
  • Legal steps in coming out
    • Changing name
    • Changing identity documents
    • Legal recognition

Although now that i look at my own list, it may require it's own article, with references to transsexualism, Legal_aspects_of_transsexualism, and external references.

Lwollert 11:22, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History of transsexuality

Is there any interest in making a section on the ancient and recent history of transsexuality? I.E.

  • Certain ancient greecian temples where men dressed and acted exclusively as women
  • Eunuch culture and transsexuality
  • Berdache culture in North america
  • Harry Benjamin and his contribution to the modern treatment and diagnosis of transsexuals
  • the near-infamous Christine Jorgensen who brought transsexualism to popular cultre in the united states
  • Renée Richards' challenge against United States Tennis Association in 1976, which helped bring about anti-discrimination rulings, and introduced transsexual women into sport
  • The recent ruling, pre-Athens Olympics, by the IOC that transsexuals could compete in the olympics
  • the various other legal milestones in regards to marriage, adoption, and the like.

Cheers, Lwollert 02:01, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Legal milestones may be more appropriate for the Legal aspects of transsexualism. As far as the Olympics is concerned, the full accurate history should be given that they attempted to identify gender based on genetics, and thus invalidated a number of women who are XY female (not just transsexuals). The recent ruling that changed this was that a woman would be allowed to compete in the women's competitions as long as her hormone levels were feminine, and not masculine, thus determining that "doping" by internal production of steroids in the female competitions is against the rules. This allows transsexuals essentially as a side-effect to allowing intersexed females, but it is not sufficient for a person to simply identify as transexual, they need to be physically appropriate to the competition. --Puellanivis 02:13, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Fair enough; Any comments on the other suggestions, though?
Link for sport in the UK; Includes IOC regulations [3]. Interestingly, www.olympic.org doesn't have the guidelines set out there, merely an explanatory statement. Apparently it's been called the "Stockholm Consensus". And although the consideration was made in light of the review of Gender testing procedures, the consensus on transsexuals took place four years after the scrapping of the old tests [4] and is specifically in regards to transsexuals.
Cheers, Lwollert 00:14, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Verification - Terminology

My proposition is that the following section from "Terminology" should be changed.

"Harry Benjamin agreed with German sexologist Magnus Hirschfeld [2]that transsexuals were a form of neurological intersex. [3]Hirschfeld coined the terms the terms "Transvestite" and "Transsexual, and in 1930 supervised the first known sex reassignment surgery on Lili Elbe [4]of Denmark."

Just double-checking my facts, but AFAIK Hirschfield coined did not coin either "transvestite" or "transsexual" - The former Coined the term in German - "Die Transvestitien" (1910) in his seminal work on the issue, and was describing what is now known as Transsexuals. The term was translated into English and used to talk about Gender dysphoria as well as what we now know as Transvestic fetishism.

Harry Benjamin actually coined the term "Transsexual" in his work, (Benjamin, 1953) which culminated with "The Transsexual Phenomenon" in 1966. Gender Dysphoria as a term was not used until about the 1970s, and was used as a term to encompass a wide range of individuals with gender discomfort. (Fisk, 1974, Laub and Fisk, 1974)

"Gender Identity Disorder" Was a term created in the DSM-III in regards to transsexuals, and the categories were "GID/Childrem Transsexualism"; "GID/Adolescent and Adult, Non-transsexual type" and "GID/Not Otherwise Specified". Notably, this did not address Late-onset transsexualism, where patients may not have had symptoms as children. Interestingly, in the major revision of the DSM, DSM-III-R, It was placed in the category "Disorders Usually First Evident in Infancy, Childhood or Adolescence". The problem was that it got lost here, as well as the issue of adult onset explained above

In the DSM-IV-TR, the current version, GID is placed in the category of Sexual Disorders, with the subcategory of Gender Identity Disorders. This is perhaps distasteful to transsexual people, as it is right next to transvestitic fetishism, Pedophilia, Fetishism, Orgasmic, Arousal and Erection disorders, and other similar categories. The disorder names were changed to "Gender Identity Disorder in Children", "Gender Identity Disorder in Adolescents or Adults", and "Gender Identity Disorder NOS".

Additionally, Both the DSM-III and DSM-IV differentiate based on sexual attraction. In the DM-III, the terms "Homosexual", "Heterosexual", and "Asexual" were used - with quite a bit of confusion (Pauly, 1992). Currently the terms "Attracted to males", "Attracted to Females", "Attracted to Both" and "Attracted to neither" are used in the DSM-IV-TR.

References:

  • American Psychiatric Association (1980) Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders 3rd ed. A.P.A.: Washington D.C.
  • American Psychiatric Association (1987) Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders 3rd ed., revised A.P.A.: Washington D.C.
  • Benjamin, H. (1953). Transvestism and Transsexualism. International Journal of Sexlogy, 7, 12-14
  • Benjamin, H. (1966). The Transsexual Phenomenon. Julian Press: New York
  • Fisk, N (1974) Gender Dysphoria Syndrome. In D. Laub & P. Gandy (Eds.) Proceedings of the Second Interdisciplinary Symposium on Gender Dysphoria Syndrome. Ann Harbour: Edwards Brothers, 7-14
  • Laub, D. and Fisk, N. (1974) A rehabilitation program for gender dysphoria syndrome by surgical sex change. Plastics and reconstructive surgery, 53, 338-403
  • Pauly, I. (1992) Terminology and Classification of Gender Identity Disorders. Journal od psychology & human sexuality, volume 5, number 4, 1992

Cheers, Lwollert 21:09, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] An important point...

I would like to see some reference to the viewpoint brought up by, for example, Kate Bornstein in "Gender Outlaw" which is that transsexual people may not always feel the necessity for sex reassignment operations (especially, conscious of their possible complications and general uncertainty of the outcome) or indeed strongly dislike their body/genitals (except perhaps for the reason that society does not accept their body to be of the sex or gender that they feel they represent). She proposes the division to pre- and postoperative transsexuals be given up. English is not my first language and I am not certain I know enough on the topic to do this myself, but I'm hoping perhaps there is someone else interested in this aspect and willing to contribute? Shadowcrow 20:50, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm.... Kate bornstein is an interesting writer, and she does have some strong opinions.
Part of her argument is that there should be no male/female gender division, and that transsexuals are giving into medical and social structures when they ascribe to the medical process.
The problem is, to subscribe to the medical process, and be diagnosed as transsexuals, they need to have strong cross-gender identification, not just "agender" identification - and additionally, they have to desire surgery, else they don't fit the medical defenition of transsexualism (as in the DSM-IV-TR or ICD-10, anyway).
I think there should be a small section on this, but it does not represent the majority of transsexuals. A more appropriate place to put it would perhaps be transgender rather than transsexualism.
As a side-note, her (Kate Bornstein's} theory is quite similar (perhaps disturbingly so) to Janice Raymond's hypothesis about transsexualism. Both are strongly criticised by some, including Patrick Califia, who I've referenced on a couple of pages now.
Cheers! Lauren♫/∆ 04:20, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
I believe there already exists the prefix "non-op" to counter "pre-op" and "post-op". Maybe this is mostly restricted to areas where transsexuality is well accepted, like Seattle. But I've already heard it fairly commonly in use. I personally couldn't imagine being non-op... and all of my non-trans female friends probably would agree with me that I'm not "raping" their bodies as Janice Raymond would put it... to them it's entirely naturally that I'm female. I would however argue that there are transsexuals out there who this would describe, but then there are men out there who physically rape women. As with anything, categorizing any group of people and giving a generic reason for their motives, just isn't appropriate, or justified. Sorry to get on a person-ish rant here. But I really just wanted to point out that there are non-op transsexuals out there. And they receive the same treatment all of the other transsexuals do. --Puellanivis 05:57, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
My apologies if I left out aknowledging the non-op transsexuals - I certainly know they exist. I don't dispute that these people are transsexual, or should be labeled otherwise - instead I hoped to include them (although I seem to have failed :) ). My main point in relation to them is that they don't fit the medical definition if they don't desire surgery - but you can be non-op and still desire surgery, or non-op and not desire surgery.
Absolutely non-op individuals need and hopefully recieve medical support - usually under a slightly different diagnosis. And I support them in their right to decide how they want to live, whether or not I would make that choice in the first place.
Most of my objection was supposed to be aimed at the argument by Bornstein that anyone who wants an operation is giving in to a medical diagnosis, and all transsexuals should instead be "gender outlaws" - that none of us should want bottom surgery, and we should all be non-op. It's that that I object to and believe is a view held by a minority of transsexuals, but perhaps describes more people who are transgendered.
Sorry for any accidental offense. Cheers! Lauren♫/∆ 05:24, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Oh, I understand better now. That makes more sense. ... Yeah, I just can't agree with that at all. I'm sorry, but I have more than just "preference" for why I want "bottom surgery". Well, first of all, it would be nice to be able to stop taking anti-androgens. Second of all, it's extremely uncomfortable for me. I know an FTM to was talking to the list about how he was very happy to be getting his top surgery done, because during the summers it caused him a great deal of discomfort to bind himself during the summer. I can typically identify with this issue, but instead of being top issues, it's bottom issues. If I'm uncomfortable with something, I'm going to get it taken care of, and I'm not going to let some ideological reasoning stop me from getting that surgery. My ideological reasons don't confront me in the shower, and on the toilet, and it doesn't rub and chafe me in the summer. I can work with the process and still seek to have issues addressed for a better process for following people. I don't expect the world to be perfect for me, but I do hope that I leave it better for those who follow than I had it. --Puellanivis 06:15, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Hear, Hear, Easy Access to Surgery To Eventually Reduce Chafing! (Tounge-in cheek, I agree totally.) Cheers! Lauren♫/∆ 00:05, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

might i make the point that many people throughout this section and others are using terminology that is in fact incorrect. One prominent example:

"male/female gender division"....this is a sex division, just as "masculine/feminine and man/woman" are gender divisions

We as a community continue to elide the distinctions between sex & gender even as we depend on such distinctions to explain, indeed to make sense of, our lives. It is exactly this carelessness, bred by decades living amongst people who neither make nor understand such points, that leads to confusion amongst ourselves as to the best way to see our commonalities and create effective coalitions. It is only in understanding our diversity, I contest, that we may celebrate it. It is only in celebrating our diversity that we may bridge across the lines that divide us. To do otherwise is to set out building a bridge without determining exactly where a river's shores lie.

also, note how using "transgender" as a personal noun is much less acceptable than using "transsexual" as a personal noun. I believe that usage such as "A transsexual was having lunch right next to me!" continues and contributes to the dehumanization of transsexual people. I propose that our articles exclusively use, and advocate the exclusive use of, transsexual as an adjective. Thus, "Transsexual women have objected..." but not "transsexuals have objected."

Finally, Virginia Prince created the general concept of "transgender" as a specific counterpoint to "transsexual" because - and this is important - Prince believed transsexual people to be sick, and indeed disgusting, and wished to divorce herself from transsexual people in every way possible. Later academic communities declared, fait a compli, that transsexual people were a subcategory of transgender people. This leads the public to the obvious conclusion that when you have a "transgender" guest speaking at an event that the speaker will be an expert on, and represent transgender perspectives - including transsexual perspectives. I don't believe that this follows, nor do I believe that we should represent to the public that this is a reasonable conclusion to draw.

Finally, in the main article, the arguments against transsexual subsumption under the category of transgender are, in the main, "straw man" arguments. I will endeavor to add a reasonable articulation of the more realistic arguments without removing the others - it certainly does not hurt to disprove silly arguments, whether they are the most common and/or most powerfully made or not. But note, this has DIRECT BEARING on the discussion above about non-op transsexual people.

While there are many reasons that one could be resolved not to have any operations (the Tuskeegee fiasco points to reasons why one might mistrust the idea of allowing a surgeon to render unconscious and cut on the body of a person from a marginalized group, then there are economic issues, health issues in persons with other conditions, etc.), there is a very important distinction to be made between those people who believe that something is wrong with their bodies (no matter what they will/won't do about that problem) and people who believe that something is wrong with how society views their bodies.

Locating the problem in the somatic self is different than locating the problem in the social dynamic. It leads one to search for different solutions and use different tactics to arrive at those solutions. While in general everyone who encounters this "problem" gains a certain amount of understanding of the points of view of others who share similar problems, we are not the same, our thinking is not the same, and despite a near-universal desire for widespread social change with regard to gender, the protections we need until and changes we desire when the revolution comes are not the same.

We can have both, but only if we consider both perspectives. That will only happen if we understand that "trans-ing" sex is in fact different from "trans-ing" gender. One is not a subset of the other, but each can be a powerful ally. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cripdyke (talk • contribs) 05:40, 13 May 2008 (UTC) --oops, corrected a typo when I came back to see if any1 had any responses to this lil' tidbit.

[edit] Citation dispute

There is an error in this article. In her latest interview, Renee Richards denies any regret regarding her SRS. From the Reuter's article on Feb 18 2007 (written by Belinda Goldsmith) "Richards, now 72 and without a partner, said she does not regret the sex change operation at the age of 40 -- although she might have liked to have gone through the process a bit earlier -- but she does have misgivings about her notoriety. "I made the fateful decision to go and fight the legal battle to be able to play as a woman and stay in the public eye and become this symbol," Richards, an ophthalmologist, told Reuters in an interview in her Manhattan offices. "I could have gone back to my office and just carried on with my life and the notoriety would have died down. I would have been able to resume the semblance of a normal life. I could have lived a more private life but I chose not to. "I have misgivings about that. I am nostalgic about what would have happened if I had done it the other way," said the 6-foot-2-inch tall Richards with an unmistakable air of sadness as she folds her man-sized hands in her lap." This aspect of the article should be corrected

Certainly Renee Richards is quoted in the lynn connway site as experiencing regret, and cites a newspaper article. If you read her book, Renee certainly had a lot of co-morbidities when she transitioned, including fairly severe depression.
I think if you can cite the newspaper article (a link, perhaps?) we sould definately change the article.
Cheers! Lauren♫/∆ 07:25, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I believe that Dr. Richards has published a second book - I'll try and get my hands on it ( Richards, Renee & Ames, John (2007), No Way Renee: The Second Half of My Notorious Life (Hardcover), Simon & Schuster, ISBN 978-0743290135  )

[edit] Guardian article

The in-text citations from the guardian article don't reference the study itself, and furthermore some of the quotations are taken out of context. ( The original report's finding is avilable here: http://www.arif.bham.ac.uk/requests/g/genderreass.htm#3 )

Note that the report says that the uncertainties are too large to form a conclusion, it certainly does NOT say that there is no evidence ( in contrast to the guardian article ). It also states:

"The points above, by raising significant problems in the conduct of much of the research claiming to show that gender reassignment surgery is beneficial, suggests that the true conclusion from the available research is that we genuinely cannot be certain about what its effects are. A systematic review could help reduce this uncertainty, but because of the flawed nature of the majority of the research it is likely that the only way to reduce the level of uncertainty is to undertake more research using more rigorous designs with a control group, ideally randomly assigned, and blind independent assessment of outcomes (Abramowitz SI, 1986)."

In other words, the report simply says the research on the matter is insufficient to form a conclusion. It certainly doesn't say that there has been no signs suggesting it is beneficial ( which is what the wiki article currently claims ).

Furthermore, the review itself comes with a disclaimer: " The information is only a very brief summary of that available at the time. It was primarily designed to give readers a starting point to consider research evidence in a particular area. Readers should not use the comments made in isolation and should read the literature suggested. Readers should also be aware that more appropriate evidence may have become available since the request was undertaken. ARIF does not routinely update the advice on these pages."

ALl in all, given the above discrepancies between the guardian article and the disclaimer provided in the review, I really don't think it is a good source and basing almost half the section on it is probably not justified. I would much rather see a reference to a more official statement made by an official organisation. The Guardian is a newspaper, known to be sensationalist, and I think it is fairly obvious that the current bit that is in there is probably not a very good representation of the general opinions of experts in the field. I'd say it should go. J.Ring 11:56, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. It does sem a bit misplaced, doesn't it?
I think a more accurate description of effectiveness would be that there is insufficient evidence to state clearly that there is a benefit, however current studies show some positive outcomes and possible reduction in healthcare costs after SRS/SAS/GRS (pick your TLA of choice). Additionally, social indicators showed an increase in social function, and psychoneurotic index scores show lowered levels of anxiety. Methodologicaly, however, the studies thus far are unsuitable to giving precice estimates of benefit. (The Wessex Institute for Health Research and Development. Surgical gender reassignment for male to female transsexual people. 1998:25. Southampton: Wessex Institute for Health Research and Development [5])
Shall we replace it? (the above link is a structured review artice, so level 2 or 3 evidence)
Cheers! Lauren♫/∆ 23:45, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Not the same as TG

All true-TSs, by definition want SRS and to correct their social role. Failing that, you are a transgender man who pretends he is a "TS" or a "woman," not an actual TS. TSs get surgery, TGs don't. MtF TSs are women, MtF TGs are MEN. Please do not confuse TSs with TGs nor any other type of LGBT. --75.177.39.22 (talk) 07:20, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi, although what you say is probably true to your experience it's not to all. There is plenty of room in all the definitions for some variations. Many in the trans community also purposefully avoid labels. If you have a verifiable reliable source that asserts your POV perhaps posting it here so others can be swayed would be helpful. Benjiboi 12:01, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Indeed, it's far from that black-and-white. Being transgendered isn't necessarily a "fetish," nor would most transwomen appreciate being called "men"... they're very much imprecise umbrella terms, that both refer to a spectrum of diverse gender identities with similar though slightly different connotations. krimpet✽ 11:46, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

SusannaBoudrie: Transgenderism differs from transsexualism in that the former is an urge to be "trans" and not to become men and women. For People with Transgenderism, including transvestism and different kinds of queerism, it is sufficient to take on the social role (gender) of the opposite sex." The inclusion of transsexualism under transgenderism is considered abusive and cissexual colonizing by most people with transsexualism or those with a born with transsexualism. SusannaBoudrie (talk) 04:15, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Because Wiki’s contributors are predominantly Americans this page doesn't reflect the cultural differences between American trans community and the British trans community. For many reasons Transgender is the generally accepted broad brush description used in the United States to be inclusive of everything from GID sufferers to Drag Queens, In Britain it the phrase Transgender is more akin to an insult because it implies rejection of your gender identity being neither one not the other. In Britain the term transsexual is appropriate because it defines who is seeking gender reassignment, common enough due to free health care, and are protected by the law against employment discrimination and hate crimes these are transsexual. And those men who simply cross dress as a hobby and don’t want surgery or change their name or will devoice and apply for a new birth certificate as per the UK’s Gender Recognition Act. These guys are transvestites and in the UK the two are quite distinct groups. -- Claire Eastwood: —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.175.137 (talk) 14:36, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Agree that Ameri-wikipedians are predominant but disagree that the articles should remain geopolitically faulty or that issues cannot be properly addressed benefiting all concerned. Personally I prefer Intersex to Trans community but also accept that any terminology and labels are problematic so I focus on removing barriers and doing my part to promote understanding. I suggest you see what in this section could be improved. You may also find though that even within British transvestite and transsexual communities are folks who feel their experiences and voices are not being addressed and that experience will be shared until there is simply no discrimination for any gender and sexuality minorities. Benjiboi 16:02, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
As an Australian, I note that the usage that you're referring to as American is the usage common to almost every transgendered person I've had contact with around the world, including some in the UK. Perhaps there is local variation within the UK, but the use of the term transgender to refer to the entire spectrum of gender variant people including drag artists, crossdressers (the clinical term transvestite is technically equivalent but now much less used) and transexuals appears to be well established in the majority of the world. If there is indeed a local variation, find a reliable source for that information and add it where it's relevant. --AliceJMarkham (talk) 22:46, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I must take issue with "All true transsexuals want SRS". What a bunch of bull. Suppose I stated that all true transexuals were flamboyantly homosexual when living as males. Or, gasp, I were to say that transsexuals who are "obsessed" with having the female anatomy were less transsexual. I would be pilloried!
SRS is a modern and recent surgical invention. Many a psychologist from Benjamin forward have argued that transsexualism has been found across cultures and throughout history. BEFORE their was modern surgery. Those transsexual women of antiquity made do with what they could do. Modern transsexual women who choose to not have the surgery carry on in that tradition. To say otherwise is to degrade the long and broad history of transsexualism in the human animal.
Issue 2 the use of the word transsegender. The use of that word is in the process of changing and evolving. I have heard it used as it should be. Which is an an umbrella term for all who are gender non-conforming. I have also heard it used by some transsexuals who preach of HBS to describe transsexuals who don't meet their standards.--Hfarmer (talk) 16:42, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you, Hfarmer. Speaking on behalf of transmen, many do not get "SRS," and are no less real transsexuals than those who do. That term itself has problems. "Sex reassignment surgery," as it is currently understood, refers specifically to genital surgery, thus making the assumption that sex is defined entirely by the gentials. This ignors all the other aspects of sex differentiation in our species, including endocrine profile and secondary sex characteristics. I regard sex reassignment as a combination of surgeries and hormone treatment rather than a single surgical operation.

Any insistence that, in order to be a true transsexual one must desire a specific procedure, is damaging to the entire trans community. The danger exists that some people may feel coerced into having genital surgery that they don't really want, or that otherwise isn't right for them. The consequences of that could be enormous. It really is a bad attitude to espouse.

Of course, that leaves open the debate about where the line is drawn between transsexuals and other transgender types. As much as I hate catagories, we do need them in order to discuss trans issues, and more importantly, for legal purposes.-- Wolfgang E. B. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wolfgang E. B. (talk • contribs) 02:15, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Trinity FFS site

www.facialfeminizationsurgery.net ==

[edit] More on above

Same link removed from this entry numerous times already. Site in question contains content lifted without permission from at least two other sites:

The site has been spammed under multiple listings on Wikipedia. Many speculate the site owner is responsible for repeated attempts to reinsert the link here and elsewhere. The owner has had an unsatisfactory experience with plastic surgeon Douglas Ousterhout and has been publicizing this dissatisfaction in any venue available. Since the link appears under the Ousterhout entry and is not considered a primary trans web resource or a neutral point of view, it should not be listed under the general heading.

note:

  • original comment was removed by 68.185.69.177 on 8 March and replaced that day.
  • comment removed by 68.185.69.177 again on 9 March and replaced that day.

Jokestress 15:40, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

TAKE A LOOK AT TRINITY'S SITE AND COMPARE WHAT THIS USER IS SAYING TO WHAT IS ON THE TRINITY SITE AND YOU SEE THAT Jokestress IS MAKING FALSE CLAIMS.
Jokestress Makes the claim that info has been lifted from * Electrologists on the 'Net Who Treat Men, compiled by Rodney Brandon
Compare the the link at **Trinity Site is question You will find the site uses frames, which would require you to dirctly right click on top of the Electrolysis and Laser link, then left click on open in a new link to see where it's linked to. Jokestress tries to use peoples lack of knowing how web pages work to make it seem like that site is stealing something when it's not doing any such thing.
Click on the link to the Electrolysis & Laser Treatments
Electrolysis and Laser **Electrolysis & Laser Treatments Area in question Notice the site links directly to Electrologists on the 'Net Who Treat Men, compiled by Rodney Brandon www.hairremovalpros.com being the site Jokestress claims is being lifted without permission. The site in questoin is linked to the same site Jokestress is claiming to be lifted by the Trinity site and this is the first example of slander by Jokestress
Now look at the other site Jokestress claims has had info lifted from it. TG-friendly Therapists, compiled by Dr. Rebecca Allison and compare the the links at **Trinity Site is question There are no TG-friendly Therapists listed on the site at all. Another example of slander by Jokestress
Slader after slander after slander.
I moved the above response by 68.185.69.177 below the earlier comment by me. Frames or not, the issue at hand was whether the site link should appear under this entry. Since several other Wikipedians had removed the link previously, I was following suit. Finally, the removal of comments on a talk page is considered vandalism. This is a place for discussion of conflicts, not for removing comments with which one disagrees. Jokestress 04:48, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Jokestress you lied about the site and the owner time and time again. I would not be surprised that people who removed the site are past patients of Douglas Ousterhout. I think you would want to up date you statement since accused **Trinity Site is question lifting items and it has not done what you claim. The site is linked on some of the major TG sites om the web by the owners of the site. So there are bound to be people who link it here and other places. If a site is linked on one major site on the web, it will bound to get links other places by the people who read the site and like it.
OK, let's take another look at more Trinity content lifted from another site as an example. Electrologists and Laser in CA is lifted almost verbatim from California Electrolysis Page on Karyn's Transsexual Refuge. Bottom line is that the Trinity site has padded out some areas to make it seem like a general resource site, but its primary goal is to complain about a surgeon Trinity does not like. Jokestress 15:11, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
As a semi-objective bystander here, I want to state that Jokestress's website is one of the most comprehensive and genuinely useful ones out there on the Web. She takes definite stances on some things, and is a very successful client of Ousterhout, but she errs on the side of cautious scrutiny and caveat emptor in all cases. She is extremely NPOV about everything she states on her website, and I am sure her edits here are, as well. I don't have caches of the website(s) in question, so I can't swear to the absolute accuracy of her points here, but I would bet a lot of money that she is in the right here. (Is this an appropriate place to make this point? I'm still kinda new to Wikipedia.) Jiawen 04:09, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As another bystander here I would like to revive the this about the Trinity site that was unjustly put down by Andrea JamesJokestress's www.tsroadmap.com

Andrea James Jokestress is was not NPOV when it comes to the subject of Trinity Rose or her sitewww.facialfeminizationsurgery.net The number one reason being that Andrea James Jokestress has been taking large contributions from Dr. Douglas Ousterhout for the past ten years in the name of the events Andrea James Jokestress has been presenting. Dr. Douglas Ousterhout been presented at the top of the guest list at the events she has organized because of the contributions to the event. Kind of hard to be NPOV about ike Trinity or her sitewww.facialfeminizationsurgery.net when you are accepting large amounts of money from Dr. Douglas Ousterhout. It would also be difficult to be NPOV Andrea James Jokestress's www.tsroadmap.com website promotes Dr. Douglas Ousterhout and you are selling videos promoting Dr. Douglas Ousterhout surgeries.

Another note I woud ike to touch on is when Andrea James Jokestress was trying to keep this Trinity’s off links section, Trinity’s site and Andrea’s were in direct competition in content and scope.

I think we should talk about this matter a great deal and get some facts out including some letters that have been made pubic about Dr. Mark Zukowski and Dr. Douglas Ousterhout fighting about Trinity case. The facts of the contents of the Dr. Douglas Ousterhout's letter to Dr. Mark Zukowski is to force him to get Dr. Anne Lawrence to remove Trinity's link from her website www.annelawrence.com/twr/index.html by way of treats. And for anyone that does not know this Andrea James Jokestress and Dr. Anne Lawrence have also been debating on number of subjects for many years now through the use of their websites and other media.

I think on the next response to this I will also provide get the link for the Dr. Douglas Ousterhout letter to Dr. Mark Zukowski.

There is a great dea of history when it comes to the matter of the Trinity Rose site and her ordeal with Dr. Douglas Ousterhout that people just don't know 23 Apr 2008

[edit] Examining Transgender/Transsexuals

I believe that, a small number of actual hermaphrodites notwithstanding, there is no difference between a transsexual and a homosexual except that the former are committed to reassigning their gender to match their sexual orientation. This is hardly an uncommon belief and one whose rationality is fairly self evident, why nothing in the article? 74.78.162.229 (talk) 13:55, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I have a similar opinion about this topic... so if you have references, feel free to improve the article. --Taraborn (talk) 14:27, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Well there is one psychologist who partially agrees with that. This is covered in the article Blanchard, Bailey, and Lawrence theory. According to Dr. Blanchard transsexuals can be categorized by sexual orientation. As the WP article says "Homosexual transsexuals are motivated to become transsexuals by their extreme effeminacy, and erotic desires to couple with men." Of course it's not a simple as that sentence.
The reasons this is not mentioned are complex. The most notable being the dominance of the other part of this theory which deals with transsexuals who are not attracted to men. It is called Autogynephilia and it dominates the discussion of Dr. Blanchard's ideas. It is controversial to say the least.
The eitology of transsexualism has a article dedicated to it. So that topic need not be covered in any depth in this article at all. --Hfarmer (talk) 14:56, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
The big problem with the theory that transsexed women are actually just homosexual men, is that many of them are either bisexual, or exclusively attracted to women. The latter generally identify simply as lesbian, and both groups usually see their condition as something not related to sexual orientation (hence the recent trend in some to use the term "transsexed" instead of "transsexual"), but instead as a birth defect to be corrected, similar to how intersexed conditions cause a person to have genitalia that may not match their psychological gender (or, sometimes, may not match *either* gender - intersex genitalia can be completely ambiguous, between male and female). Added to that, two separate scientific studies have shown that transsexed women, despite being born in a male body, have female brain structures, which are present BEFORE hormone treatment. The medical community is slowly leaning towards the view that this is a birth defect, and I have to say I'm on that side - if nature can create quirks like intersexed people, who have bodies inbetween male and female (and I happen to be an intersexed woman, my strong discomfort with certain aspects of my body matches what my trans friends have told me about how they feel), AND studies have shown transsexed women to have female brain structures, I can easily see nature "messing up" enough to create a person who has the brain structure of one gender in the body of the opposite sex. Of course, medical science still needs to do a lot more research on the issue to be absolutely sure, but current evidence does seem to strongly suggest that transsexed women are, neurologically and psychologically, female, and that treatment to make their bodies female also is the logical way to proceed. While yes, there are a handful of psychologists/psychiatrists who strongly believe that transsexed women are either homosexual men or men with a fetish for having a female body, their opinion is strongly disputed and seems to be a very much minority position - I'm sure you'd still find a fair few psychologists/psychiatrists who, despite majority opinion, still believe that homosexuality is a mental illness that can be cured. You may be able to cite that a few hold that opinion, but I doubt you'll be able to cite that it's a very well respected viewpoint amongst the psychiatric community (and even less respected by the trans community). Also, while I've continually talked about transsexed women, I was just using them as an example for the sake of clarity - pretty much all I've said applies (in reverse) to transsexed men - male brained people in female bodies. To be honest, more than a brief mention of these fringe views is likely to be both as pointless and as offensive as going to <ethnic minority> page, and adding something like "Many scholars such as <a few names of white-extremist racist types> believe that <ethnic minority> are prone to such negative behaviour as <outdated stereotypes and anti-ethnic-minority propaganda>, this is supported by <cite to obviously forged or flawed study by said extremists>" instead of making clear that such views are the fringe opinions of a few bigoted idiots, if they're even mentioned at all. I mean I'm sure we don't have a page about Asian people stating the views of the Australia First Party that Asians are plotting to take over Australia and oppress white people. Xmoogle (talk) 22:00, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
I appreciate your insights, but I'm not sure where your information is coming from. I'm pretty well read on this issues, and I don't think anyone has ever said that MtF's are all homosexual males; the closest is Blanchard who said that >some< MtF's are a type of homosexual male but that asexual, lesbian, and bisexual MtFs are not at all like homosexual males.
I know of a single study which showed that MtF's (sexual orientations not reported) had a single part of the brain that was shifted in the female direction, but no study that looked at people before hormones. Which studies are you referring to?
I agree that the best thing to do for many MtF's is to help them undergo transition, but that's different from saying that they are literally women trapped in men's bodies (or vice versa).
—MarionTheLibrarian (talk) 22:20, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
I didn't say that anyone said all were homosexual males, I said that a few (Blanchard etc) said that they were all *either* homosexual males *or* males with a fetish for the idea of having a female body. As for the study that was conducted on that one area of the brain (other areas presumably remain uninvestigated), at least one of the women they studied had never gotten as far as getting female hormones, yet still had the female brain structure. There was a second study which confirmed the findings of the first study, but I can't remember exactly how to find it. Either that, or it was the second study that had one subject who had never had hormones - I can't remember clearly on which of the two studies it was, but I do clearly remember at least one subject had never taken hormones. And yes, saying that transition is the best course of action *is* a different statement to saying that transsexed women literally are women in the wrong body, but I do say and agree with both statements, partially from a great deal of research, and partly from unciteable personal experience (for example, I'm a lesbian, although I've tried one or two straight relationships, and there is a very distinct difference between the personalities of men and women. I've dated trans women, and they have personalities/psychologies that are like any other woman. Many of my friends are trans women, and have distinctly female personalities. A couple of my friends are trans men, and they have unmistakable male personalities. Although obviously, my personal experiences are not verifiable and citeable the way Wikipedia would need them to be). Besides, what's this "Deconstructing" business? Are transsexed people made of Lego or something? Xmoogle (talk) 00:27, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
The study I know about is: Zhou, J. N. et al. (1995). A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality. Nature, 378, 6552, 68–70.
And that study was not able to rule out hormones as being responsible for the detected differences. If there is a replication, I'd certainly enjoy knowing about it.
I never liked the word "deconstructing" either. It always sounds to me like "analysis" with an insecurity complex.
—MarionTheLibrarian (talk) 01:11, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
The good old tradition of using unnecessary verbosity and big words to make onesself look more intelligent... Anyway, I'm barely awake right now, but I'm pretty sure the second study was in the 2000s. Still no idea how to find it right now. It may come up in a google search for "transsexual brain differences" or something. Xmoogle (talk) 07:42, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
That's real funny considering of anyone writing in this section you are the most wordy Xmoogle! So far as I know Zhou's study is the only one that has been done on transsexuals brains that found the BSTC difference.--Hfarmer (talk) 15:48, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Yay for me then? Xmoogle (talk) 19:34, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Zhou had a second round of examinations, including the first FTM (found to have masculinized BSTC structures) as well as a woman who had a virilizing tumor (it flooded her body with androgens) and a man who had an estrogen excreting tumor. Both had gender identities consistent with birth sex. As it was found, the woman with the testosterone fell in the female group, and the man with the estrogen excreting tumor was found to fall in the male group. This second test proves that hormones alone are not sufficient to account for a change in the structure of BSTC. I'll get the reference for you if you insist that it doesn't exist. --Puellanivis (talk) 03:19, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Another problem with the BNSTc finding is that the BNSTc is also smaller in pedophiles. So the BNSTc could be related to atypical sexuality generally rather than to gender identity specifically. (For the record: This should not be misinterpreted comparing transsexualism to pedophilia.)
The reference for that is: Schiltz, K., Witzel, J., Northoff, G., Zierhut, K., Gubka, U., Fellman, H., et al. (2007). Brain pathology in pedophilic offenders: Evidence of volume reduction in the right amygdala and related diencephalic structures. Archives of General Psychiatry, 64, 737–746.
—MarionTheLibrarian (talk) 16:50, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
The problem with that interpretation, "The BNSTc could be related to atypical sexuality", is that that would make all women have "atypical sexuality". Also, transsexualism is usually not considered a sexuality, transsexed people don't "get off" on being trans. Besides, from Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus (Frank P. M. Kruijver, Jiang-Ning Zhou, Chris W. Pool, Michel A. Hofman, Louis J. G. Gooren and Dick F. Swaab) - "We determined in 42 subjects the number of somatostatin-expressing neurons in the BSTc in relation to sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, and past or present hormonal status. Regardless of sexual orientation, men had almost twice as many somatostatin neurons as women (P < 0.006). The number of neurons in the BSTc of male-to-female transsexuals was similar to that of the females (P = 0.83). In contrast, the neuron number of a female-to-male transsexual was found to be in the male range. Hormone treatment or sex hormone level variations in adulthood did not seem to have influenced BSTc neuron numbers. The present findings of somatostatin neuronal sex differences in the BSTc and its sex reversal in the transsexual brain clearly support the paradigm that in transsexuals sexual differentiation of the brain and genitals may go into opposite directions and point to a neurobiological basis of gender identity disorder." (emphasis added by me). This seems to show quite clearly that they *were* able to rule out hormone treatment as a cause for the brain difference. Xmoogle (talk) 19:34, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
From skimming the study I linked to, it's from 1999, and references the earlier 1995 Zhou study you mentioned. This is the second study I was thinking of, uses some of the same test subjects as the 1995 study, and appears to be an expansion of it. Hope this all is helpful! Xmoogle (talk) 19:42, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Something else that may be interesting - A criticism of Bailey's methods of first ignoring the brain study, and then ignoring some of it's data and twisting the rest of the data to fit his own theories. In my own personal view, a person who resorts to misinterpreting data so heavily, either through ignorance/mistake or on purpose, is not truly a scientist. There's no real credibility to his theories. Xmoogle (talk) 19:59, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Yet another comment - from researching the pedophile study, I can't find access to the full article, but it appears to be talking about a different area of the brain. Searching for the article on google while including the term "bstc" shows up nothing at all. Could you perhaps provide a link so I can see what you're talking about? Xmoogle (talk) 20:10, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I think you're quoting the abstract of the article, not the body of the article itself. The basis of the authors' statement was that they had a sample of people with endocrinological disorders, and in that sample, there was no association between BNSTc size and their hormonal make-up. The researchers did not actually test any transsexuals before they started hormone treatment.

The finding does not imply that biological females have atypical sexualities. The logic is easiest to understand by analogy. Men are taller than women (on average). There are also diseases or situations (such as poor nutrition in childhood) that make a person short. But, one cannot conclude that women have those diseases or have poorer childhood nutrition (on average). Rather, women are shorter for one reason, and people with the illnesses are short for another.

I'm afraid I don't have a link to the Archives of General Psychiatry that can be used outside the university; library holdings can be accessed electronically only by faculty and current students. It's one of the biggest psychiatry journals in print, so any university or medical library will have it. If you bring the reference I posted earlier, the librarians there will help you locate it. (Librarians aren't entirely obsolete just yet!) The BNSTc finding was only tangential from the point of view of the pedophilia researchers, so it was not mentioned in the abstract. —MarionTheLibrarian (talk) 20:33, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Um, actually, it *is* known that one of the subjects had never been able to get hormone treatment. Just read the criticism of Bailey's method link above - that has a little more info about that particular person. They specifically wanted to check that because the 1995 study hadn't, from what I've read. Xmoogle (talk) 02:06, 3 June 2008 (UTC)