Talk:Top of the Pops

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Top of the Pops article.
Article policies
Top of the Pops was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: No date specified. To provide a date use: {{FailedGA|insert date in any format here}}

Contents

[edit] Altered sentence

I have altered the sentence "The show's relaunch with Andi Peters as producer was widely considered the point where Top Of The Pops was Jumping The Shark" because although "Jumping the Shark" was linked to its respective page to inform people what it meant, I felt that particular phrase is not widely known or understood in British English. After all, the "Jumping the Shark" article does state that it was popularised by US TV critics. Therefore, I feel my decision is justified. --Chriskirby 20:36, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] TOTP Plus/@Play

No mention of TOTP Plus or TOTP@Play spin-offs. I'm afraid I don't really know much about them but I think all the other spin-offs are mentioned.--Kevin Judson 23:59, 24 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] MUSIC SHOW BEGAN 1964

The article says "In 2002, BBC America presented the BBC version of Top of the Pops as part of their weekend schedule. The network would get the episodes one week after they were transmitted in the UK. BBC America then tinkered with the show by cutting a few minutes out of each show and moving it to a weekday time slot. Viewer interest was gone and the show was taken off BBC America's schedule."

I don't think tinkering is a neutral term here. BBC America has commercials, so the 30-minute program was shown as 40-minute program, including commercials. Later, performances were cut to fit the program into a 30-minute slot on BBC America.

It might be worth writing to BBC America to get an official statement from them, but it seems that this music program didn't really fit in with the rest of their programming. BBC America has really never shown a large amount of music-related programming

Yeah, I don't really understand the statement "Viewer interest was gone." I seem to recall quite a bit of flaming going on at the BBCA message board for at least a year afterwards, decrying the loss of TOTP in the States; there was even a FAQ entry from the BBC basically telling people to stop asking if they'd bring it back. So I'm not sure it was cancelled due to lack of "viewer interest." Maybe I'll add a citation request. Free-world 03:12, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Logo

Shouldn't the current TOTP logo be at the top as people might think the one currently at the top is the TOTP logo. British TV

  • Much Better now that the current logo is at the top

[edit] Trivia - Bis

I have some vague memory of hearing that this is a factoid as Suede hadn't signed a deal when they first went on TOTP. But I may have dreamt that.

Bis definitely weren't the first despite the outright lies of the BBC publicity machine. They only hand a "handshake" deal with Chemikal Underground at the time, but if you accept that as unsigned, then New Order also had a handshake deal with Factory when they performed Blue Monday on ToTP in 1983. (For that matter, I wonder whether Renee and Renato were under contract to the tiny independent label Hollywood Records?) Another thought: ToTP traditionally featured the winning entry from A Song for Europe. It is possible that some of these acts were also unsigned when they first appeared. --Bonalaw 11:58, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


Guys, I have no idea how to wikify a page but there are two problems on the page. One, both Status Quo and Cliff Richard are cited as appearing on the show the most times... so which is it?

Also, Judas Priest's performance of "Take On The World" in 1979 is clearly live vocals over a prerecorded track of the rest of the music. This does not jibe with what's written about when this procedural policy was in place. Judas Priest's performance in 1980 muddies the issue further by being a completely mimed performance.74.32.80.33 03:51, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorted it, someone sneaked the errornous Status Quo trivia into the history section presumably when no one was looking. Status Quo are often quoted as being on the show over a hundred times, a figure in the 80s is actually more accurate (87 are listed on the TOTP website performance database). Sir Cliff holds the title of most appearances totalling at least 150 (156 listed in the database).
Explaining your query about the no-miming policy; the policy was only ever enforced in 1991. Before that year artists had the freedom to choose whether they mimed, sung live to a recorded score or even if they wanted to use their instruments live... as indeed they do now as the rule has long since been dropped. --Peteb16 19:50, 30 May 2006 (UTC).

Added the Steve Archibald appearing twice on the same show fact. Statto74 12:06, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] First Show

"Top of the Pops began on New Year's Day 1964 in a studio set in a disused church in Salford."

Wasn't the first show from a converted church in Dickenson Road in Manchester i.e. not Salford? --jmb 21:57, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
What? How did that get in there? Dickenson Road's about 5 miles away from Salford! Thanks for spotting that! I'm surprised no one, including myself, has spotted that before. The BBC have mentioned lots of times in various literature about the show's Manchester roots. Maybe it was vandalism. ~~ Peteb16 22:21, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
There was a discussion about the subject yesterday in uk.tech.broadcast, apparently the BBC News pages were saying Salford for a time. Perhaps they used Wikipedia for their source! --jmb 07:42, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chronology

The section "All New TOTP" was a bit of a mess as various editors tried to update the various changes that have taken place since the move to Sundays and finally, the cancellation. I have ordered the events chronologically and rendered all verbs in to the simple past tense (since it is now history). --Oscar Bravo 12:22, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I have grave doubts as to the repeated assertions that The Beatles were on TOTP edition 1. At the time, they were in their christmas show at the Finsbury Park Astoria, later the Rainbow, and simply could not have got to Manchester (and back) for the show and met their commitment to the nightly show in London.

I'm checking this a bit deeper with Bill Wyman who was on the show!

The Beatles were not on the first show in person, their song was played to specially edited news footage. In fact, of all 20 appearances on the show, only one was a performance and that was 'All You Need is Love', shown on Boxing Day 1967. All other appearances were either news footage or a promotional video. ~~ Peteb16 15:03, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
That contradicts information that a clip of the Beatles on TOTP is in the 1965 Doctor Who serial The Chase, which is apparently the only surviving TOTP Beatles footage - but apparently the Boxing Day 1967 episode exists in full, so surely it'd be on there too? BillyH 20:02, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Well my information comes from the performance database on the website and also the book. I'm guessing the book is correct that they weren't in the first episode, but I am aware there are mistakes in the database - you'd think they'd get something as important as that right though? ~~ Peteb16 20:45, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
I have a VHS copy of said Christmas 1967 show and The Beatles contribution is a recording of their "Our World" contribution, originally transmitted live from Abbey Road. Yes, they were performing live and it was in front of an (invited) audience, but it was not performed in front of a TOTP audience. I've yet to be convinced that they ever appeared live in the TOTP studio (although John Lennon did with "Give Peace A Chance" Neillp88 18:51, 31 January 2007 (UTC)neillp88

Bill Wyman has confirmed that the Rolling Stones WERE on the first show, that the Rolling Stones did not open the show, and that the Beatles were NOT there in person, so can at best only be described as being featured, and NOT as being **ON** the show.

By any chance Did Mr Wyman say who did open the show? ~~ Peteb16 10:30, 30 July 2006 (UTC)


Sorry, no. But he has re-confirmed what I have said. I've also had some exchanges with someone called Tae from TOTP Online who seems to accept that The Beatles were not physically there for the first show, but given that Jimmy Saville read the script at the last TOTP without comment, seems to accept that the Stones were on first - apparently believing Sir Jimmy more than Bill Wyman's diaries! Tae has not (I gather) made any reported (to me) attempt to actually contact Bill for him/herself to verify it. So, whilst the record here at Wikipedia will be OK, the BBC's as-good-as-official account will be flawed.

Well no offence to Sir Jimmy, but he is getting on a bit and can't fairly be expected to remember something that happened 42 years ago. He probably would've believed the autoqueue if it said Girls Aloud opened the show. However, what shouldn't have to be disputed is the book written and published in 2002 which documents the first episode as beginning with The Rolling Stones. If this is wrong, this apparent sloppiness is not something that should be easily excused... although it is becoming quite consistant, especially when we're now talking about a show with a very final 'last episode' that will be somehow be back at Christmas as if it hadn't happened. I hope someone does come forward with some accurate information. If there's no proper documentary evidence, and there's no one left alive that can remember, they should be honest and say that. ~~ Peteb16 15:10, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
The Beatles DID make some live appearances on the show. I will add sources for this when I find them. MFlet1 09:18, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Missing episodes

Recent changes regarding this section don't seem to ring true and as such I've requested a citation for it.

"The last edition no longer in the archives is dated September 8th 1977. All editions after this date exist in full."

"There is also a widely held belief that editions from September 9th 1982 and August 9th 1984 are missing, this is also incorrect."

The BBC Top of the Pops website contains a database of it's performance history, if you look up 9th August 1984 you will find they confirm that this episode does not exist in the archives. If this is incorrect, there needs to be proof provided in some way that contradicts this information. Additionally, the term 'widely held' needs backing up, it's not something that seems to pop into everyday conversation. Thanks. ~~ Peteb16 23:35, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

(Slightly later....)

A search of the BBC's own TOTP database <http://www.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/totpperf/search.pl?type=totp1&mode=advanced> confirms that the Beatles did NOT appear on the show. TOTP showed a promotional film - which IMHO is not the same as "appearing" on the show. Fine, entries can say that they were "featured", but not that they "appeared". Doing a similar search for The Rolling Stones shows how entries for artistes who appeared show up more clearly.

[edit] The End

Whose going to do the chore of changing the article to past tense and the whole "TOTP broadcast its last episode on..." thing. Could be quite a task due to the size of the article. Last programe ends in 30mins.

(RuSTy1989 18:35, 30 July 2006 (UTC))

I believe the solution for this has been solved - we don't change the article to past tense. Why? Because it hasn't ended! If anyone saw the documentary broadcast at 10pm on BBC Two you would have heard Jana Bennett, (BBC Director of Television) state "Yes, there's going to be a Christmas special this year, The Top of the Pops Christmas special is here, it's not gone away." Sally Wood (Producer) also believed the show would be back in a couple of years time. Certainly by Miss Bennett's announcment it is fair to say that the show has not ended, therefore it is in the present tense. Does anyone else agree with this? ~~ Peteb16 22:32, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

It depends on whether they keep their promise. They could do a Christmas special this year and never do one again...or change their minds and not do any at all. Remember, when Tomorrow's World ended three years ago, they said they'd produce specials under the name, and we're still waiting. BillyH 23:06, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Equally, the BBCs reptutation for actually ending something is just as bad. Doctor Who, Only Fools and Horses, Absolutely Fabulous and Last of the Summer Wine being good examples all of which have been ended at least once and then simply brought back. ~~ Peteb16 23:21, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I would say that Doctor Who is the only one brought back completely. Last of the Summer Wine ended because of the death of one of the main characters, it returned when a way was later found around this. I think the other two have only returned as specials which is quite common after a series has ended. --jmb 09:03, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

They are doing a Christmas special. Did you see Jimmy Saville turning the lights off at the end? How sad.--Crestville 11:39, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

The BBC programmes mentioned by Peteb16 are all comedies. A far better comparison might be Top Gear, another magazine programme. This was dropped for a couple of years and then came back with a fresh new format. Perhaps some people might do the same with TOTP and revive it in a new fresh format (rather than the old format with stuff added on as happened in recent series). I believe with a Xmas Special on the way we should leave everything in the present tense. Alexj2002 18:29, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good Article nomination has failed

The Good article nomination for Top of the Pops has failed.

As mentioned on the GA page, this article has far too much traffic to become a good article just yet, and instead should be put up for nomination at another time. Regardless, even without the breaking news of cancellation, there are many things that can be improved upon (I probably would not have passed this article anyways).

Here are some things you might do:

  • The entire "Send-ups" section should be prose, not a list.
  • "Audience blunder" does not deserve its own section, merge it with something else.
  • You need to decide which verb tense you are going to use. I understand that since the show was just cancelled things are still under the editing proces, but this is just a reminder.
  • There need to be a lot more references (inline citations are always preferable)
  • The section about the magazine needs to be expanded and an article should probably be created specifically about the magazine.
  • Lastly, the entire article needs more than one person (once it is mostly finished) to copyedit it so that the prose is much better than it is currently.

--SomeStranger(t) 00:40, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested section split

For the request for the split of the section List of performers to List of performers on Top of the Pops

  • Support - Even if I continued to split the list into columns by the time it reaches 43 years worth of performers it will outsize the rest of the article many times over. ~~ Peteb16 21:42, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Support - Yes, you should definitely make this a new main article. It's a mammoth undertaking! chapwithings 13:34, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay I'm going to action this, feel free to vote against this decision and we'll discuss a re-merging, but as it stands, we seem to have a very eager contributor who seems oblivious to the effects of the rapidly expanding list on the rest of the article. No offence to them of course, I just think by the time we've discussed it, it will be too late. ~~ Peteb16 21:31, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Send-Ups

The last item in the send-ups list just says "Singer Les Gray of Mud went on s." Anyone know what "s" Les went on? Syxx 03:16, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

The entire second half of the article got blanked, presumably accidentally as he also added a bit to the intro, by an anon. Now restored, and incidentally, Mr Gray went on s"tage to perform with a ventriloquist dummy during the performance of Lonely this Christmas and had the dummy lip-synch to the voice-over in the middle of the song.". BillyH 04:27, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Origins

There is a letter in the September 2006 issue of Prospero from Kenneth Lawson, the designer of the first Top of the Pops set. He makes a few comments that someone might like to incorporate into the main article.

  • He complains about the failure by the BBC and media to give enough credit to the late Johnnie Stewart who was the original source of the show.
  • He says that the BBC's "London management had no interest in the prospect and they eventually thought, let him try his idea in Manchester's small and awkwardly-proportioned Studio A in Dickenson Road. They gave him six weeks to prove it".
  • "From Day 1 it was a roaring success with millions viewing and increasing every week to the total amazement of the top executives in Television centre who could not believe their eyes and decided to visit the studio on transmission where it went out live - just to see how this success was achieved".
  • "They did not want this type of programme originally as it was not quite BBC - too loud and noisy etc."

Continues about how it stayed in Manchester for three years before being moved to London. --jmb 10:43, 8 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] The Pogues?

It says that shane mcgowan fell over a drumkit, which is completely untrue,i'm changing it.

[edit] Lip Synching

I have never seen this show, but from the myriad descriptions of all the ridiculous jokes artists played to point up the fact that they were miming the words, it sounds like a total joke - did this play as badly as it sounds from all these examples? --Dmz5 03:50, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

In fact incidents such as these added to the show's appeal, in my opinion. Also the fact in the old days (1970s/80s) it was always presented by Radio 1 DJs. Radio 1 is supposed to be pop music station, but back then many of its presenters were people over 35 who didn't have a clue about youth culture. So you always got a certain satisfaction from seeing someone like Simon Bates introducing The Smiths, when you knew he was really more of a Chris de Burgh man himself. I was tempted to include this in the article but it's probably a bit too POV-ish. MFlet1 14:01, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

The main article makes it sound like there was no miming of vocals, just instruments until 1991. This simply is not true as Morrissey mimed all his solo performances until they switched to a live vocal, pre-recorded backing track.

I just don't really know the facts to make it right.

You're right - miming of vocals was definitely in place all through the 1970s and 80s, as can be clearly seen from various clips on YouTube etc. I've corrected the text to reflect this. MFlet1 11:20, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Zealand

I'm not a very good writer so i wont change it, but here are a few things to note under NZ:

  • New Zealand was the first country to be awarded the franchise outside the UK.
  • TOTP was filmed at the Transmission room (http://www.transmissionroom.co.nz) not the TVNZ studios as stated. Transmission room is owned by Satellite Media, the shows NZ Producers.

-- Matt

[edit] 'Miming' & Sound on the show

A couple of comments from ex-BBC staff who worked on the programme (via http://www.tech-ops.co.uk) :

  • "I was quite upset regarding the comment that 'most artists mimed' ! Although I never worked on many TOTPs I'm sure that there are many others who could put Wikipedia right on that. I certainly remember the Johnny Pearson orchestra in the studio and of course the absolute legend when it came to re-creating the original record-sound in a live performance; that lovely, lovely man Dickie Chamberlain. Much of the success, for me at any rate, of the programme was due to the absolute dedication and expertise of Dickie in producing perfect live versions of the hits".
  • "I was disgusted to find absolutely no mention of the Camera and Sound crews who made that programme the success that it was. I was particularly saddened to see no mention of Dickie Chamberlain who did the sound on TOTP for over twenty years, reproducing sound studio recordings live on air with such success".

I agree that Dickie contributed greatly to TOTP at TVC, but more BBC[1] staff should contribute to Wikipedia too [2]Zir 13:54, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Very pleased to see that Neillp88 has now done thisZir 11:45, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Totp old.gif

Image:Totp old.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 05:03, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Totp old.gif

Image:Totp old.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 20:36, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Totp old.gif

Image:Totp old.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 05:23, 14 July 2007 (UTC)