User talk:Tim32

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Contents 1 Greetings... 2 Mathematical chemistry 3 Claims of vandalism 4 Reference 5 Pascal FAC

[edit] Greetings...

Hello, Tim32, and welcome to Wikipedia!

To get started, click on the green welcome.

I hope you like it here and decide to stay!

Happy editing! James Sugrono_{Contributions} 14:54, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mathematical chemistry

Do you have a reference for "Mathematical chemistry" being also known as computer chemistry? Incidentally only today computer chemistry was created as a redirect to computational chemistry. If you are right it should be a redirect to mathematical chemistry. --Bduke 08:29, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Please, see (based on graph theory applications):

• M.I.Trofimov, E.A.Smolenskii,Application of the electronegativity indices of organic molecules to tasks of chemical informatics, Russian Chemical Bulletin, 2005, 54(9): 2235.(http://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s11172-006-0105-6):

P.2235:"Key words: chemical informatics, databases, generation of graphs, isomorphism of graphs, computer chemistry, recognition of chemical structures, topological index, electronegativity."

• M. I. Trofimov, An Optimization of Procedure for Calculation of Hosoya's Index, J. Math. Chem., 1991, 8, 327

• M. I. Trofimov and E. A. Smolenskii, Izv. Akad. Nauk. Ser. Khim., 2000, 401 [Russ. Chem. Bull., Int. Ed., 2000, 49, 402]:

P.402: "Key words: computer chemistry,..."

P.407: "...which is topical for computer chemistry of organic compaunds".

Also, please see my comment Talk:Mathematical chemistry#What is mathematical chemistry?:

• Generally computer chemistry (mathematical chemistry) is based on graph theory applications for organic chemistry. ... computer chemistry is not computational chemistry.
• It would be better to redirect mathematical chemistry to computer chemistry, where computer chemistry is main page.

• Insert "see also: computer chemistry" to computational chemistry page

Hope it helps!--Tim32 09:06, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Lots of good useful stuff here. It will take me a while to look at it. I agree that the core of mathematical chemistry, at least in practice, is graph theory and possibly topological ideas. I do not agree that it would be better to redirect mathematical chemistry to computer chemistry. The only relevant journal is the Journal of Mathematical Chemistry. However it looks as if computer chemistry should be redirected to mathematical chemistry not computational chemistry. --Bduke 09:50, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

For example, some specialists from catalysis area often note that their area is older than mathematical chemistry and also "mathematical" (based on differential equations) ;) The name "Journal of Mathematical Chemistry" is good name for journal only, like "Chemical graph theory" was very good name for the book by Bonchev and Rouvray, but it is not chemical branch. Another relevant journal is Journal of Chemical Informatics and Computer Science (renamed now), 3rd journal is [Internet Electronic Journal of Molecular Design] etc. --Tim32 10:20, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

But molecular design or drug design or similar is not called mathematical chemistry, even though it uses mathematics. It is called computational chemistry or molecular modeling. I do not see the term "computer chemistry" used either to any significant extent. Have you seen User:Itub's comments on Talk:Mathematical chemistry? --Bduke 11:08, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, a lot of sophisticated questions may be possible here. For example, what is the difference between physical chemistry and chemical physics? Or between quantum chemistry and quantum physics? I had began my investigations in Lab of Computer Chemistry of N.D.Zelinsky Institute of Organic Chemistry of Russian Academy of Sci. in 1986. Month ago I have written big article "Computer Chemistry" for Russian Wiki. This article seems to be successful – minor corrections only till now. You can try to use my approach to avoid too long discussions with other editors. BTW, sometime synthetic methods for drugs called "drug design" also.--Tim32 07:35, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I realize that drug design can be synthetic chemistry. A question: in Russian do the terms "computer chemistry" and "computational chemistry" have the same distinction as they do in Western Europe, or the US. I know of lots of Labs of Computational Chemistry in English speaking countries but no Labs of Computer Chemistry. Maybe we have to be careful of the translation of terms. So, as a further question, does the Russian Wiki article on "Computer Chemistry" have any overlap with the English Wiki article on "Computational Chemistry"? --Bduke 09:54, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the terms "computer chemistry" and "computational chemistry" have the same distinction in Russian. I do not find any overlap. You wrote: "Maybe we have to be careful of the translation of terms." The Russian terms "computer chemistry" and "computational chemistry" are translations from English. The Russian term "computer" moved from English. Before PC we used term "Electronic Calculation Machine" (ECM) in Russian. IMHO, this problem is more important for Wiki, and is not so important for science. I think, firstly, we have to insert more facts to "computer chemistry" (or "math. chem.") article: molecular graph models, indices, algorithms etc. Note, please, today in science we have a lot of cross interactions: biochemistry+ synthetic chemistry+ NMR+ ESR + computer chemistry+ quantum chemistry+ molecular mechanics may be used in single research and discussed in single paper.--Tim32 10:38, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that information. Regarding your last point, I do not disagree, but I am not clear about its implications for Wikipedia. Cross interaction is fine but it is still cross interaction - i.e. interaction between different things which need to be addressed differently on Wikipedia. But I do agree that many of the articles broadly in the area we are talking about do need more content. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bduke (talk • contribs) 11:13, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok. I do agree that different things need to be addressed differently on Wikipedia, at the same time some overlaps may be possible. To minimize overlapping we will need to move some fragments from one article to another article. But I think this may be the second step, the first is "more content".--Tim32 11:32, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Also. Sometime some Wiki editor may find a paper with cross interaction "computer chemistry+ molecular mechanics" and he/she may decide that molecular mechanics is a part of computer chemistry. But sometime some Wiki editors do not want to consider an article in chemical journal as interaction "chemistry+ computer sci." It is hard problem for Wiki. --Tim32 11:45, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Claims of vandalism

Please do not use "vandalism" to describe edits that are clearly in good faith, as you did when reverting this edit. It is a violation of our policies and guidelines on assuming good faith and civil behavior. —David Eppstein (talk) 22:12, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

"self-promotion of ref to an insignificant paper which adds nothing to the article" is absurd reason, you should prove before that this is "insignificant paper" firstly for chemistry and secondly for graph theory. This is not task for Wiki editors and nobody here should do similar proving and claming (Wiki editors are not official experts), but everybody has to keep the neutral point of view: "NPOV is absolute and non-negotiable", so when anybody deletes a reference to opposite view this action looks like vandalism. I have written a lot for Wiki, and I write only items about I have professional knowleges. So, I use references to my papers (I have written more than 100) as well as to other papers. There is no rule in Wiki against, hence "self-promotion" is absurd reason. There are a lot of references to my papers in Wiki and nowhere else I heard about "self-promotion"!

Not long ago I wrote you that you deleted one link to arxiv (because it “is not peer-reviewed”) and added another link to the arxiv and that it seems that your criteria of notability is too original. It seems now you remember this incedent…;)

Also not long ago I wrote to User:Mikkalai: “You wrote the Hosoya index article just after I had inserted its definition to the matching article…” It seems now he remember this incedent…;)--Tim32 (talk) 12:01, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reference

Hi. I wanted to ask, what is the connection of the reference (K. Kindler, K. Lührs (1966). "Studien über den Mechanismus chemischer Reaktionen, XXIII. Hydrierungen von Nitrilen unter Verwendung von Terpenen als Wasserstoffdonatoren". Chemische Berichte 99: 227-232. doi:10.1002/cber.19660990135.  )you gave to cunane or Cubane? Thanks --Stone (talk) 07:53, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I got this reference from March’s Advanced Organic Chemistry, please checkup text of the paper, perhaps, it is wrong reference. Sorry for that.--Tim32 (talk) 14:32, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pascal FAC

Hi Tim32, thanks for contributing to Wikipedia! I'm just here to point out a friendly suggestion regarding FACs. Unfortunately, in its current state, Pascal doesn't meet the featured article criteria for a number of reasons, the most important of which is its lack of in-line citations. I've made a few suggestions about its future, namely a copyedit and a peer review, and am wondering whether you wish for the article to be removed from the nominations list for the time being. If so, just leave a note on Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates or User talk:SandyGeorgia. If you need any further advice, don't hesitate to get in touch with me. Thanks! PeterSymonds | talk 20:58, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi PeterSymonds, thanks for your comments! Unfortunately, I do not understand exactly your most important reason about citations. Please, give me any example of possible citation for this article. Any text from any Wirth's book? Why we need it here?

Also, in Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Pascal (programming language) you wrote "There is a lot of unreferenced criticism"... Please, give me only one example of unreferenced criticism from the article. Generally, the source of the criticism is "Why Pascal is not my Favorite Programming language" by Kernighan. As for me I do not like Kernighan's papers, but I think, the criticism should be saved for NPOV. Thanks! --Tim32 (talk) 14:55, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

By unreferenced criticism, I meant that none of the criticism was without in-line citations. The thing is, is that citations tell the reader exactly where the source came from, so for example, although you have a great further reading section, I don't know which one of those books, say the sentence, "Although Kernighan decried Pascal's lack of type escapes ("there is no escape" from "Why Pascal is not my Favorite Programming language"), the uncontrolled use of pointers and type escapes have become highly criticized features in their own right, and the languages Java, C# and others feature a sharp turn-around to the Pascal point of view..." came from. Verifiability and accuracy are important in encyclopedia articles, and that is the reason we use in-line citations, to reference claims, giving details of exactly who made those claims and where (book, newspaper etc). Do you see what I mean? PeterSymonds | talk 21:44, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. The section Criticism may be following:

While very popular (although more so in the 1980s and early 1990s than now), early versions of Pascal have been widely criticized (See, Comparison of Pascal and C ). Based on his experience with Pascal (and earlier with ALGOL) Niklaus Wirth developed several more programming languages...

Would it be sufficient improvement? It seems, additional citations are not necessary for other sections... --Tim32 (talk) 15:18, 28 February 2008 (UTC)