Talk:Three Witnesses

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[edit] Final testimony

I'd like to see the summary final testimony analysis User:John Hamer put in comments in Golden Plates moved to the end of this article as a nice bookend for the article. Its absence leaves a hole. Tom H. 15:57, Jan 24, 2005 (UTC)

Tom --- actually I didn't write this part: Oliver is the only one I (User:John Hamer) can find a scant bit of evidence that he recanted his testimony - this happened during the Kirtland Safety society scandal — but the only available evidence is his asking Smith and the Church for forgiveness for his statement and said that he hoped he had not comitted an unpardonable sin (paraphrasing of course) by leading people to believe that he did not see the plates. i've found no other credible sources of this aside from early and easily discredited (such as ezra booth) early (pre-1860) anti-mormon materials. Even Whitmer said under oath in a courtroom that he had indeed seen the plates and had never denied it - and any rumors to the effect were untrue. This while he was estranged from the Church

I actually have a book on Oliver Cowdery, but I can't figure out where I put it. I'm planning on using it to beef up his post-excommunication period article. I completely agree with you about expanding this portion of the 3 Witnesses article and I plan to do that soon. --John Hamer 14:43, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I believe I wrote the above quote -Visorstuff 23:28, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

No references. This is a poor article without references. I'll add some in shortly. If anyone else can find some, please let me know or post them here. -Visorstuff 19:49, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The "Magical Three Witnesses"

This article has seriously drifted from NPOV. It now appears to be all about the "magical three witnesses." Some balance would be nice without an overdose of the "Magical World View." Bochica 01:30, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I am adding NPOV tag per Wikipedia NPOV policy: "None of this is to say that tiny-minority views cannot receive as much attention as we can give them on pages specifically devoted to them. Wikipedia is not paper. But even on such pages, though a view may be spelled out in great detail, it should not be represented as the truth." Bochica 13:55, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
As an example of what I am talking about, refer to the section on Martin Harris. These are the words and ideas associated with this man in the very first paragraph, in the order in which they appear: respected farmer...magical world view...excitable and fecund...work of the devil...met Jesus in the shape of a deer...visionary fanatic...an honest man...overbalanced by 'marvellousness'...reputation of being crazy...seeing spooks. I am fully aware that this material was drawn from what appear to be primary sources, but the bias of the paragraph is obvious. When I read the Wikipedia page on Harris, I'm reading about a different person. Bochica 14:40, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree. The Harris biography needs to be changed as well.--John Foxe 15:33, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Regarding evidence concerning the POV charge, an example is already stated above. Bochica 16:03, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, there's definitely some NPOV problems here... while Grant Palmer is fairly certain that he knows what the three witnesses' mindset was (and "others" from the same time period as well), his self-assured presumptions don't impress me. We really need to work on this, and find a way to walk between the "magical" and "spiritual/religious" line. Folk magic/Divinity, Gullibility/sincerity... we don't need to really take a stance on this here, but it seems across the board that we already have (and it's Palmer's). gdavies 07:38, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Just prove Palmer incorrect and I'll concede the field. Whether Palmer impresses you or not is of little consequence.--John Foxe 14:50, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I can quote books out the ear that say that Joseph Smith saw an angel of God, that he saw God the Father and the Holy Ghost, that the Book of Mormon is the word of God, etc, but if I added these statements to the article of course they would be completely out of place and inappropriate. I can say that "Joseph Smith said..." because he did, we can also state whatever Palmer speculated as to Joseph Smith's or anyone else's "mindset," but to state their speculation (which he really isn't qualified to make) as fact is completely and totally inappropriate. Unfortunately it's your duty to cite the material you add (appropriately cite, not state one's unqualified and unsupported opinions as fact.), not for me to prove that there "aren't purple dinosaurs under the surface of the moon." You may want to review Wikipedia:Verifiability and wp:NPOV. gdavies 00:17, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Regarding John Foxe's unexplained reversion... I changed "supernatural" to "divine." Besides obvious POV implications, the three witnesses witnessed the divinity of the Book of Mormon, not it's "supernatural" origins, implying folk magic, etc. which is not something that the witnesses implied.

Also, I edited the intro to the three witnesses to indicate that it is a belief held by some (esp. Palmer) but isn't necessarily fact. This was reverted without explanation as well.

Finally, I changed the following sentence, "Before Cowdery served as one of the Three Witnesses, he had already experienced two other important visions." I made it a statement of what both Smith and Cowdery said, as opposed to stating what they said happened as a fact. I'm not sure why this was reverted... gdavies 06:10, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I have a separate concern regarding this sentence; "Like Smith, who was a distant relative, Cowdery was also a treasure hunter who had used a divining rod in his youth. Cowdery asked questions of the rod; if it moved, the answer was yes, if not, no." Obviously POV, this sentence is a bit pretentious... the source is to a Vogel letter, and i don't think (and this is my personal interpretation) that this evidence alone is enough to slap a treasure hunter label on Cowdery, but it seems like a primary instance of village gossip indicative of little more than contemporary anti-mormon sentiment. gdavies 06:10, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

November, 2007 Added phrase to comment on member testimonies, which are based not only on impressions but also on personal experiences. 65.23.125.201 21:11, 14 November 2007 (UTC)cdowis

[edit] Biographical Material on the Witnesses

One way to get it back to NPOV would be to remove much of the biographical information about the witnesses themselves. In other words, focus this article to be about the collective experience of the individuals when the became (again, collectively) "the Three Witnesses," and leave the individual biographical information for the individual pages that are linked to from this article. -Awyatt 20 December 2006

This is not a bad idea in order to avoid excessive duplication of material between this page and the individual biographies. I haven't examined the individual biographical pages yet, so I cannot yet comment further on this. My main concern regarding NPOV in this article is that it has become completely skewed toward the perspective of a single author (Grant Palmer), with quotes from his work becoming interspersed throughout the article and represented as facts. I have no issue with including Palmer's POV (and all of the quotes from his book) as long as it is clearly indicated that this is only one of a number of points of view. The counterbalancing POV will also need to be added in order to achieve net NPOV for the article. Bochica 13:46, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I'll correct my statement above. It's not just Palmer's POV that is quoted, but a collection of various quotes taken from Early Mormon Documents that, when arranged as they have been, is intended to make these men sound like they were magical simpletons. There exist plenty of other quotes from primary sources that talk about the character of these men, and some of these will eventually need to be added to achieve NPOV. Bochica 14:17, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Please, gentlemen, instead of taking the easy way out and slapping a tag on the article, find the quotations that provide the opposing point of view. I certainly won't object to including them.--John Foxe 15:37, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
The purpose of the NPOV tag is to highlight an article which is currently out of balance. In order to bring it into balance, the additional information must be added. Until then, the article is POV and deserves the tag, regardless of whether or not you found the article uncited when you began working on it. Bochica 16:01, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
You haven't proved the article out of balance, only asserted it. If the Three Witnesses were not united by their magical world view, that should be provable from primary sources. You've objected to none of the information currently cited in the article. You've just said you don't like it.--John Foxe 16:10, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
John Foxe, I have appreciated much of your contributions to Wikipedia. However, I believe you are mistaken in saying that tagging this article NPOV is "taking the easy way out" - I believe it is the correct course of action. I have just reviewed the stated policy again and it seems clear that this article should be tagged according to established Wikipedia policy. After reading the article, readers may be unsure about several things, but one thing they will know for sure is the author's personal opinion of the subject matter. I personally agree with Awyatt's recommendation to remove biographical information from this article as it should be included in the biographical pages for each of these people - If someone wants to know more about any one of them, they simply have to click that person's name. I will NOT be tagging the article as I can see how quickly you have reversed it in the past, but would recommend it be done. I have attempted to be courteous and constructive and will not edit the article (other than minor grammatical corrections) without discussion. Brykupono 00:15, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. I appreciate your courtesy. While I'm a believer in making articles as clean and readable as possible, the biographical information in this article is material to the subject. To remove it would obfuscate the world view of the Witnesses and the differences between their era and our own.--John Foxe 00:46, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

John Foxe: I note that you undid some of my edits, which I think is unfortunate. As I stated at the beginning of this section, I think the best thing to do may be to remove all the biographical information about the witnesses on this page and rely solely on the individual articles about them. Since that has not been done, I thought it best to add some additional information about the witnesses and their feelings about their testimony, about the Book of Mormon, and about the Golden Plates. (For instance, see the additions I just made to the Martin Harris biography section.) I did not remove the material that was there, but simply augmented it with first-hand accounts that are properly referenced and footnoted.

If you deem this not worth keeping, could you please indicate why? -AWyatt January 15, 2006

This is an encyclopedia article and should be clear, brief, and readable; it should not be a collection of undigested primary material with an LDS POV.--John Foxe 21:34, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
It seems odd to me that secondary material (which is what the article previously consisted of) is to be considered preferable to primary material. As to my additions being "undigested," I would take exception to that since I obviously edited them as they were added.--AWyatt, 15 January 2007
Pick up your nearest print encyclopedia and look at how articles are constructed.--John Foxe 21:54, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
This isn't a print encyclopedia. gdavies 00:22, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
It seems that by "clear, brief, and readable" you really mean "full of third hand sources speculating 150 years after the fact" as opposed to (heaven forbid) primary sources that actually has to do with subject of this article. What are you trying to hide? gdavies 00:22, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I think "divine" instead of "supernatural" is perfectly fine. The "some have said" business was vague, and besides the current statement is cited to Palmer. As for the introduction of Joseph Smith into the Cowdery experience, it's unnecessary. Cowdery swore to the experience on his own, which is the point of the sentence.
I'm all for primary sources, but as a noted classicist said about surviving manuscripts from the ancient world, "A lie is a lie even when it's told in Latin or Greek."--John Foxe 15:39, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm glad you're alright with "divine,"... but how in the world can we justify stating as fact what some nut said 150 years after the fact, who just happens to know what the three witnesses' mindset, as well as "other Americans" was (perhaps he has ESP or "second sight."). You've got to be kidding me. It's speculation, which is fine to include, but we're not including it to state it as fact or reality, but instead to note that the speculation is out there. "some say" or "Palmer believes" would be fine, take your pick, but adding his "hunch" as a fact is utterly ridiculous.
As to my addition of Smith into the Cowdery statement, why is it "unnecessary" to include the fact that both he and Smith claimed they had these visions together. They worked together, then they prayed together and had divine manifestations together. How is it "unnecessary" to include these very useful details? I'm trying my hardest to imagine the source of your real aversion to it... is it that two people saying these visions might possibly lend more credence to the theory that it actually happened? I just don't see your reasoning.
I absolutely agree that sources don't necessarily dictate truth. However, it seems like that's what you're doing, except with tertiary sources, and only ones that happen to support your POV. You object to my restatements, which do nothing further than demote a tertiary critical statement to what it is ("some" or "critic's say") rather than a fact. You've definitely set a double standard when it comes to including materials. gdavies 22:30, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

As an aside, Foxe, I find your edits very exhibitive of "ownership." gdavies 22:34, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I think on every LDS page to which I've contributed a Mormon has accused me of "ownership." My answer is always the same: No non-Mormon can "own" a Mormon page. The LDS community can overwhelm any individual non-believer.
I've added a Palmer quotation. Palmer's a former LDS seminary teacher, so he's your baby if you want to call him "some nut." He's an authority, and if you care to refute him, cite a counter-authority. Certainly the LDS apologetic machine must be grinding in response to this embarrassment.--John Foxe 14:12, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Absolutely he's "some nut," although he does have (if I remember right) a degree in anthropology. Being a former LDS seminary teacher does not make him an authority on anything other than being a former LDS seminary teacher. He has obviously overstepped his range of knowledge and experience in his books, and much of what he says is his personal bias/POV/speculation, unsupported and unsuplemented by anything in reality.
Your inability to acknowledge that you have often "owned" articles is illustrative of an ignorance as to the definition of "own". You don't have to know anything or be an elephant to own an article on elephants, but surely these types of articles may be "owned" at one point or another. Your logic makes absolutely no sense here, if you are reverting other people's edits without explanation (beyond, "you don't think it's necessary"), adding extraneous material that is POV, speculative and irrelevant, stating such material as fact, and then not allowing other editors to remove it. That is the definition of "ownership". From Wikipedia:Ownership of articles, "Some contributors feel very possessive about material... they have donated to this project. one thing to take an interest in an article that you maintain on your watchlist. Some go so far as to defend them against all intruders. Maybe you really are an expert or you just care about the topic a lot. But when this watchfulness crosses a certain line, then you're overdoing it." I don't think that you're really blatantly attempting to own this or any other article, but it bothers me that you've kind of immunized yourself from this possibility because you aren't Mormon. Obviously this article could be owned by anyone, with or without knowledge/experience about the article's subject. This applies to me and everyone else, "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed by others, do not submit it." gdavies 17:46, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I have "owned" articles. In fact, I do "own" articles. None of them are LDS related, however.--John Foxe 22:02, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I think this is the fourth or fifth time I've tried to explain ownership of articles... I'd really sincerely encourage you to just read Wikipedia:Ownership of articles. Being a sole or primary editor doesn't make you an "owner," an owner is one who generally discourages other people's edits to an article for whatever reason. (Although it's certainly possible you exhibit these same behaviors in these smaller articles) gdavies 07:20, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I understand you completely. Some articles that I've written are effectively modified only by vandals, bots, and me. That's because, for one reason or another, nobody cares about them. Of course, I don't own them; I "own" them. My guess is that I'm often accused of "owning" LDS articles because I'm the only non-Mormon who seems to be interested in them.--John Foxe 22:40, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
As long as we understand the difference between owning and "owning"... haha, yes that may well be a contributing factor, it's good to have you around for that reason, although we all make mistakes from time to time. gdavies 08:08, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not going to make another accusation of ownership (since that doesn't do anything anyway) but your actions over the last week or so are the kind of things I'm talking about. Just randomly reverting edits without explanation, burying material that doesn't support your POV and making large-scale deletions without discussion. gdavies 19:15, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I think we can come to a meeting of the minds about material that you consider too anti-Mormon, but loading the article with material about Harris's wanderings in Utah isn't a great way to begin the conversation. Then too, if there's evidence against Grant Palmer's statement, let's have it.--John Foxe 22:17, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I like to assume you know how unreasonable the last part of your statement was. That's not my prerogative, it's your responsibility to source material you include, not mine to disprove it. Why don't you have to "disprove" all the material you keep removing? You seem to assert some authority over this article that I don't quite understand. It's extremely obvious to me that you're cherry picking material that you feel supports your POV and then calling anything else "wanderings," "loading," etc. in an effort to downplay anything you don't personally want in the article. The material is valuable, well sourced, and your unexplained deletions really look like vandalism. I know we can work this out, but I'm frankly very peeved that you're so willing to bury anything that you don't like personally, and then continue to assert some guys gut feeling about the witnesses' mindset 150 years after they're all dead as fact. gdavies 02:02, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Palmer is more than "some guy," he's an expert, a fellow who's spent his career studying Mormonism, something that neither you nor I have done. It's fine to contradict him, but you must do so with evidence.
The Harris material is fluff. It only repeats at length what has been said already, that at the end of his life, Harris returned to one version of his earlier testimony. On the Golden Plates page, we agreed that the current article was too long and you tried to shorten it. (I had no problem with any of your deletions.) Here you advocate adding a lot of extraneous material for no other reason than that it exhibits Mormon POV.--John Foxe 13:51, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I would like to keep it short as well, but the right way to go about that is not to just delete everything you don't like. How about we go through and delete any repetitious material (which most of it isn't... btw) and see if we can shorten without losing content. I'm glad you were okay with my deletions, I hope we can do the same sort of thing with this article. The "extraneous" material covers stuff that hasn't been covered elsewhere in the article, and is more important (in my opinion) then you think. You say he merely "returned to one version of his earlier testimony." Surely that's a naive mischaracterization... he said that the rumors that were floating around that he ever retracted his testimony were completely false and that he always stuck to his original testimony. Surely that's very noteworthy that he made this statement under oath at the end of his life (whether you believe the statement is true or not). gdavies 17:11, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
As to Palmer, it's safe to say he's a critic and that he's definitely on questionable ground. He seems to have no problem proclaiming himself an expert (he has a masters in anthropology if I'm not mistaken) and then making comments about psychology, 19th century society, and a slough of other stuff that he is by no means an expert about. I have no problem including his comment, but we can't make it into something it's not - a fact. The fact is that it's what some critics (in great part due to palmer's book) believe, but what they believe isn't necessarily the truth. You can't "prove" their mindset, but you can prove what some people think it is. This is fundamental wiki reliability policy. gdavies 17:11, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
About those rumors that Harris retracted his testimony: they were true. But sure, it's no problem to say that he denied them under oath at the end of his life.
Palmer has an M.A. in American history from BYU. The magical mindset of the Witnesses is amply demonstrated in their respective biographies. Palmer just points out what can be denied only by ignoring plain evidence.--John Foxe 18:54, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I think we're all very aware of your POV, but Palmer and his history degree doesn't make psychological speculation fact. We can state it, but not as a fact, because it isn't. We have no primary account (primary meaning something said or written by Harris) about a denial, just one obscure third hand letter, more likely the product of gossip than actual occurences. Don't you think there would be other references if this actually happened? We're not going to come to an agreement on this, unless we can compromise. I don't think Palmer deserves any mention on Wikipedia or anything pretending to be scholarly or unbiased. You think what he says represents truth. Why not just state the only indisputable fact, "Palmer (or critics, or some who are skeptical, etc.) has speculated that the witnesses had a magical mindset." gdavies 19:03, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
See what you think of these compromise wordings.
Harris repeatedly declared that he had seen the plates with his "spiritual eyes," as opposed to his natural sight, so his testimony and his "denial" might not have registered as a discrepancy in his mind.--John Foxe 20:16, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
That's one interpretation, here's mine. Right after explaining he saw them with his spiritual eyes he usually said "do you see my hand... am I tricking you? This is how I saw the plates and the angel, and I can't deny it any more than you can deny you're seeing my hands." I think it'd be completely ridiculous to get into a discussion about transfiguration, spiritual matter (D&C 131 particularly) and the effects of seeing an angelic being in some circumstances. Joseph Smith also said that he "came to himself" after some of his visions, and other prophets have talked about "dreaming dreams" or having "visions" while they're asleep. There's a whole element of altered consciousness that I don't think is relevant to this article, but since you bring it up I thought I'd ramble for a moment. I guess what I"m saying is you're inferring contradiction where he didn't (or, in general, the people who heard him). His experience was very real to him whatever his state was at the time it took place, and the fact that he said he saw these things with his spiritual eyes doesn't really mean much (to him or to me at least). Besides, he was one of the witnesses who received a spiritual witness of the plates, as opposed to the eight who received a physical witness... so the issue of "spiritual eyes" really makes sense and isn't necessarily contradictory.
I'm fine with the compromise (with the few edits I made). My problem was generally with the first sentence, which stated what Palmer said as a fact... how does my edit look? I'd still like to add in at least some of the material that was removed... gdavies 20:35, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
The early 19th-century magical mindset is part of the vision problem; it's similar to caves with plates and swords lying around inside, treasures disappearing into the ground faster than you could dig, etc.
I've tried to tweak a bit. You had two "fervents" in the same sentence, for instance. I say add away, and I'll take a look. Didn't seem to me that there was much of interest in that material though.--John Foxe 21:19, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Whoops... I meant to replace the "more fervently than ever" with a "fervent" earlier in the sentence, but forgot to delete the other phrase... As to your edits... looks great, thanks for working with me on this one. I'll look through the other material and see what we can do with it. gdavies 22:30, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Manuscript of Testimony?

Does the original signed manuscript of the Testimony survive? -- 212.63.43.180 16:58, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

No.--John Foxe 18:14, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
The original manuscript to the Book of Mormon was put in the cornerstone of the Nauvoo House and most of it rotted away. Though we have a small part of the original documents, the majority of it is gone. Just as with all manuscripts, without proper care it is very difficult to maintain/retain originals. We don't have any original signed testimony of the witnesses of the Book of Mormon. However, we do have the printer's manuscript where, in Oliver Cowdery's hand, he signed his own testimony in copying the testimony of the three witnesses in the printer's manuscript. I hope this helps. --Storm Rider (talk) 19:57, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Testimony of the Tanners

Re: The authenticity of the experiences of the Three Witnesses is challenged by well known Mormon critics such as Jerald and Sandra Tanner, and the Institute for Religious Research.

It makes no difference whether well-known Mormon critics challenge the testimony of the Witnesses. Some Mormon could easily list a host of Mormon apologists who argue otherwise: "The testimony of the Three Witnesses has been supported by Mormon apologists B. H. Roberts, Hugh Nibley, and John W. Welch." Yawn. Now, if the latter did not support the testimony of the Three Witnesses, that would be worth mentioning.--John Foxe (talk) 19:55, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Quorum of the Twelve

I see no reason to outright delete the material on the Three Witnesses choosing the original members of the Quorum of the Twelve. This information is readily available from any number of sources; if an editor is unhappy with the History of the Church citation, the answer is to request other citations, not simply delete it on the grounds that s/he can't find it mentioned in one particular work. I will be working on getting other citations. Good Ol’factory (talk) 13:06, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

  • Incidentally, I just found the reference for the same information in Bushman on p. 255, which User:John Foxe suggested did not exist when s/he deleted the material. Strange that you would delete this and claim it did not exist without checking first (?). Good Ol’factory (talk) 13:16, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, my mistake. I looked at Bushman but obviously not hard enough.--John Foxe (talk) 15:17, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
No problem, just curious if you knew something I wasn't seeing. Thx. Good Ol’factory (talk) 07:51, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Move of material from Criticism of Mormonism article

The reason that material is being moved from the CoM article to the main related articles is because the CoM article is so bloated and plagued with POV issues. By moving much of the critical material to the main related articles, it's given a chance for more context and, perhaps, thorough vetting. The CoM as it stands is, in a lot of ways, just a POV fork. I hope that makes sense. And I agree with your edit at the Eight Witnesses article. --TrustTruth (talk) 19:12, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I dislike the notion that because one article is a POV fork, the situation can be improved by exporting the POV to other articles, such as Three Witnesses, that are relatively neutral and stable. In any case, most of the material that you've added is already here without the POV. But I'll stand down a bit on this one and let other members of the community have their say.--John Foxe (talk) 21:27, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree with TrustTruth - In a perfect world, the Wikipedia would not have any POV fork articles, and all relevant content should be in the articles themselves. The content that was moved should be covered in this article for it to be balanced. If you think that it is too POV, then try rewording it (without changing the cited quotes of course). --Descartes1979 (talk) 02:00, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
I still think the section unnecessary, but if it has to be here, at least let's make it as concise as possible.--John Foxe (talk) 23:19, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
I think it should be absorbed into the article, ideally. --TrustTruth (talk) 01:15, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
OK, I've now incorporated that new material into the article. Once I eliminated the irrelevant comment about the family ties of the Eight Witnesses, I came up with one new sentence for the text and a couple in a footnote. Be happy to have your comments.--John Foxe (talk) 14:31, 13 May 2008 (UTC)