Talk:Thermal energy

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[edit] Is 'Thermal Energy' Pseudo-Science?

I'm not saying I'm an expert, and I'm not here trying to squash free thought or expression, but my substantial background in thermodynamics provides me some perspective in the supposed field of this article. My perspective is that while I have seen one US High school text present a concept of "thermal energy" when teaching elementary concepts of kinetic theory of ideal gases, and I offer no opinion as to the doubtful pedagogical merits of such use, and I may possibly have used this term inappropriately at a cocktail party once, and if so I'm truly sorry, yet beyond that I am not aware of scientific authority which articulates or advocates the generalizations and definitions offered in this article. Thermodynamics is generally regarded by Physicists and Chemists as falling into the philosophical realm of a "science" which concerns itself with HEAT, with WORK, with TEMPERATURE and ENTROPY, with PRESSURE and VOLUME, it conventionally defines ENTHALPY (H), GIBBS FREE ENERGY (G), HELMHOLTZ ENERGY (F), and INTERNAL ENERGY (E) but nowhere do I find anywhere, including the Britannica article cited, an authoritative exposition or definition of "THERMAL ENERGY". The author may have (incorrectly) confabulated with INTERNAL ENERGY which, for an ideal gas has the properties s/he states, but for no real substance. I am aware of several prior editing wars related to this "thermal energy" concept in other articles, and have seen it persistently inserted into fundamental definitions in the Wikipedia. I've made no modifications here and I'm NOT starting an editing war here, but my technical opinion is this article should provide other authoritative references (which I doubt can be found), or should be greatly revised and reviewed by a technical expert having a PhD in the field or by a PhD teaching upper division thermodynamics in Physics, Chemistry, or Engineering. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.191.132.120 (talk) 00:55, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Question

So the difference between kinetic energy on a atomic/subatomic/elementary/quantum level and thermal energy is.....?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kinetic_energy#Heat_is_not_kinetic_energy This expert-looking person says that thermal energy is a combination of potential and kinetic energy.--Myncknm 00:23, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

The Description section is inaccurate in many ways:

  • Thermal energy is definitely not "quantified via temperature", and is quite different from the quality of being "hot".
  • The first law of thermodynamics doesn't say what is claimed (under the common usage of "energy loss").
  • The second law is phrased in a meaningless way.
  • The talk about the "quality of energy" is quite strange indeed; and what is meant by "its original form"?

It should be rewritten. Warning added to article. --Tromer 01:27, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

It appears that this is mostly a web page about thermal energy phrased entirely in neologisms, using newly invented English terms instead of the traditional Greek and Latin; indeed there's a change comment on the Thermal energy page saying, "moved Thermal energy to Warmal inwork: English term instaed of Greek", although I can't find earlier versions of the thermal energy page in the history. As such it's amusing to read, and it seems at least mostly correct, but it would probably be more useful if phrased in the traditional words, so that its readers could communicate with people using the traditional terms. Kragen Sitaker 02:08, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

  • This was a joke (or trolling). Reverted. mikka (t) 22:26, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Description" section

The Description section is not just inaccurate, it is absolutely awful. It should be rewritten completely. Thermal energy is NOT quantified by temperature; "infrared radiation often linked to thermal energy" is a very vague phrase; the discussion of oscillators and their relation to thermal energy is unclear; the second law of thermodynamics is stated in a very curious and not very useful form ("thermal energy is special among the types of energy" is unphysical and vague, and "heat is a form of energy of lower quality" is completely meaningless). In short, this section needs to be completely rewritten, preferably by a physicist. 131.111.8.96 05:13, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

i didn't write the section and would welcome you to rewrite it. about it, i thought two things were true: the capacity per particle of thermal energy (per degree of freedom) is proportional to absolute temperature (with the Boltzmann constant k as the constant of proportionality). also, at least in engineering thermodynamics books, calling heat a "low grade energy" in comparison to non-random mechanical or electrical energy is common because to convert this "low grade" energy to a high grade energy, a heat engine is used and their cannot be 100% efficient. but to convert electical or mechanical energy into heat is always 100% efficient. r b-j 01:37, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately I am not enough of an expert in this area; a real physicist would do a better job. It is true of course that you cannot convert thermal energy to non-random mechanical or electric energy with 100% efficiency, but I have never seen thermal energy described as being "of lower quality": the idea of energies having "low or high qualities" (i.e. being "better" or "worse") is not very physical. 131.111.8.96 17:50, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Thermal energy is not heat. It is the energy of the particles in an object. The temperature of an object is just the average amount of energy per particle but thermal energy is the total amount of energy in something.

Heat is the transfer of thermal energy from an object of lower temperature to something of a higher temp. Thermal energy is the total energy of an object. That is, the kinetic energy + the potential energy. Temperature is the average kinetic energy of an object.

MYT 03:52, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I've fixed some of the errors in the article. With part about the laws of thermodynamics, I just cut that out completely and added a link to its main article at the end. They are really not necessary and not that relevant to the subject. I could say that about much of the rest too. Well, the thing's better than before, and that's all that I claim. --myncknm 05:47, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't really agree with some of the definitions I've read above. Here's what I know about the subject:
  • Thermal energy is the random part of the kinetic energy. If a steel ball is thrown in a given direction, its overall motion in that direction does not contribute to its thermal energy; The random movements of its particles does.
  • Heat is the transfer of thermal energy. According to the second law, it can only happen spontaneously from a system of higher temperature to a system of lower temperature.
  • Temperature is proportional (via half boltzmann's constant; not equal) to the average thermal energy per particle per degree of freedom.
I hope this clears up some of the confusion. -- Meni Rosenfeld (talk) 08:56, 11 March 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Restart of page

Hmm, the page seems to have been blanked and restarted. Good? I think it was. There was a lot of irrelevancy and badness in there before. --myncknm 01:41, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thermal Energy Definition

I have looked at many topics about thermal energy and have found no definition. It is energy caused by heat —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Axiomwheeler (talk • contribs) 04:07, 12 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Rewrite

I completely rewrote and condensed this (also removed the picture that had little to do with 'thermal energy'); the old version was poorly written and quite redundant. If anyone wants to expand it, they should start from my text. The way, the truth, and the light 07:50, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed merger

The first line of this page begins, 'Thermal energy or thermodynamic energy, often called heat...'. Shouldn't 'thermal energy' and 'heat' have the same page, then? I am not a physicist, but based on my understanding I don't see the need for separate articles on these subjects. Since heat is a far higher quality article than this one, I suggest merging 'thermal energy' into that page. Terraxos 05:51, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

If I remember right, they are not the same; the intro is referring to the common misconception that they are. Thermal energy is the energy possessed by something with a certain temperature, while heat is somehow related to the transfer of thermal energy from one object to another. Nyttend 05:56, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I have performed a complex edit on these articles, please see the discussion at Talk:Heat (disambiguation). The way, the truth, and the light 20:42, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

This page should be deleted rather than merged- I can't see any new material here. Thermal energy has a meaning but not one that is different from internal energy (I don't know what whoever wrote this thinks is the internal energy of an object at absolute zero). Heat transfer is the mechanism of energy transfer between objects of different temperatures. Most of this article is about heat transfer, not thermal energy. MAG1 22:34, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

So we should merge this with Internal energy instead? I hadn't seen that article before but it looks like a good idea. We can't just delete this article - besides the useful title it has the history section which isn't found elsewhere. I'll add more tags. The way, the truth, and the light 23:18, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I think we should keep these pages separate. I'll try to elucidate the differences when I have a chance in a couple weeks. In the meantime I think there should be no deletions or mergers. Scott.medling 22:49, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I think the three should be merged, as the differences are subtle enough to explain all in the same place. This is the way they are introduced in textbooks, too. See Talk:Heat#Merger_with_Thermal_energy. — Omegatron 23:44, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cleaned this article and heat article

I don't know who messed (or mixed up) the heat, thermal energy, heat transfer, pages (e.g. put the history of heat into the thermal energy page, etc.) but I will quickly clean up the mess. Each term has a distinct meaning, internal energy was essentially defined by Rudolf Clausius in the 1850s (although he built on some shoulders). --Sadi Carnot 04:15, 28 June 2007 (UTC) people if you don't know what thermal energy is don't ask me —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.2.37.50 (talk) 21:08, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Disscussion moved to Talk:Heat