Talk:The Motherland Calls

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[edit] Title

I turned Mother Motherland into a dab page and cut out the Mother Motherland Is Calling. I am not sure that this is the best translation. Please discuss the title. `'Mїkka 17:21, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Traduttore traditori. I would personally go for "Mother Russia is calling you". Another possibility may be the very free (traditore!) "Your country needs you" by Kitchener, but that loses most of its appeal without a Soviet flag behind the text. The original idea may be French, I think: "La république nous appelle, sachons vaincre ou sachons périr. Un français doit vivre pour elle, pour elle un français doit mourir" (today many replace "doit" by "sait"). The republic is calling us, let us show we know how to win or die - a Frenchman should live for her, a Frenchman should die for her". (Be careful, those at work: music!). Interestingly, there was also a version of the refrain to be sung by the mothers of the departing revolutionary soldiers. The "Russian" version of that would be "The Soviet Union calls you", but that would not do today, so I go for "Mother Russia". I agree that my version still googles badly. --Pan Gerwazy 17:49, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
No way it is "Russia". Like you say, it was "Soviet Union". "Родина-мать" is a culture-specific cliche, with numerous emotional loads. Like, "Uncle Sam needs you!", only different. `'Mїkka 19:14, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
The problem is that you've got "mother" twice now in your literal translation. As professional translators would say now you've "la laide fidèle" (instead of a belle infidèle) Time will tell whether people will transfer this to "Mother Russia". Have a look at the googles - some people are already doing it. The French example (which in my view influenced "Your country needs you", "Unclke Sam needs you" and "Родина-мать") did not just refer to France either, "la république" meant "Liberté, égalité, fraternité". In my view, the communists were ambiguous too, but in the other sense or direction. The French version was appealing to people's idea of freedom and equality to preserve France. The Soviet version was ambiguously appealing to Russian nationalism to preserve the Soviet Union. I have a recording somewhere of an Orthodox Moscow choir singing (in 1942, I believe) the national anthem of the Soviet Union (Stalin version). It is another example of this ambiguity. Some Western commentators, on seeing monuments like this one, are struck by this ambiguity, misinterpret it and say "this regime even conscribed the dead".--Pan Gerwazy 11:02, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
I concur with Pan Gerwazy. Mother Motherland is not a direct translation; if it were, it would be Motherland Mother. However, Родина-мать зовёт! was an oft used cry to patriotism, and it is impossible to translate word for word, but rather you need to look at the actual phrase in its entireity. There are really only two ways to translate the phrase. The Motherland is calling you or Mother Russia is calling you - Родина-мать of course being poetic symbolism for Mother Russia. What we really need to find is Soviet documents in ENGLISH from the era when the statue was built, or even from when posters such as this were common, and see what was used in English. I would be guessing that 'the Motherland is calling' would be used; as look at what the Germans would translate it as Mother Fatherland is calling (in German of course) - it wouldn't make sense. Or in short, Родина-мать is simply a personification of the Motherland (or Mother Russia) - depending on usage. I would therefore be in support of a move of the "Mother Motherland" articles to simply "Motherland" and disambig if need be. Also, it should be noted that the various "Motherland is Calling You" statues were inspired by the poster in the link above (which is probably worthy of its own articles on wikipedia) - more info here, in addition to RIA Novosti also translating it as "The Motherland is Calling You" [1]

That disambiguation page should be edited to conform to the Wikipedia:Manual of Style (disambiguation pages). (Although I think I preferred the combined article.) Ewlyahoocom 05:55, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was Move to The Motherland Calls. Duja► 12:31, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Mother Motherland Is Calling → The Motherland is Calling — Mother Motherland is Calling is a word-for-word translation of the name of the statue, however, when translating from the Russian the entire context needs to be looked at and The Motherland is Calling is the more correct translation as Родина-мать literally means The Motherland (and in other contexts can also mean Mother Russia) —Russavia 05:13, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
  • Weak Support. definitely better than the present one. But a (spelling) alternative may somewhat preserve the motherly idea: "Your Mother Land is Calling (You)". --Pan Gerwazy 15:18, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
I switch my support to another one resembling this proposal: "The Motherland calls". That wins the google test hands down. --Pan Gerwazy 20:15, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Mild oppose - Based on what appears to be the most commonly used name, following the Google results below, "Mother Motherland" seems the most likely option. Rename the current "Mother Motherland" to Mother Motherland (disambiguation). Magnetic hill 19:19, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Support the idea to remove duplicates. In Russian Родина-мать is a single idiom, and you can't translate them literally. Родина is closer to homeland, "the place where you were born", and the overall meaning of Родина-мать is most properly conveyed by The Motherland. I have no definite opinion on the verbal formation; "is calling" possibly is better, as the name represent a slogan used during the War, not a permanent conception; however, the Russian name also includes the exclamation mark, so The Motherland is calling! would be the most prudent translation (again, no opinion on capitalization). Notice also that in Russian Wikipedia, ru:Родина-мать is dedicated to a concept/slogan, ru:Родина-мать зовёт! to a poster that first used the phrase, and the statue is located under ru:Родина-мать (Волгоград), although ru:Родина-мать зовёт! (Волгоград) would have been better, IMHO. Súrendil 13:50, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Any additional comments: --Russavia 05:13, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Why not introduce some pronouns? "Your Mother Land is calling you", eg, immediately looks and sounds less typically Russian (though perhaps some want to keep that Russian-ness? --Pan Gerwazy 15:13, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Starting with "your" this is obviously a neologism, and as such cannot be the titele of a wikipedia article. Withdrawn. --Pan Gerwazy 20:12, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I included "Volgograd" in the searches to keep the results specific to this statue, but if Volgograd is replaced with the former name "Stalingrad" then the above results are similar. Google isn't an exact test, but it's a good indicator and it shows the two most obvious choices. Magnetic hill 19:19, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Comment Normal google text searches aren't a good test, as you mention, as it is unknown how many of the "Mother Motherland" results are as a direct result of people consulting this article in finding an English name. Perhaps a more accurate search is by using scholar, books and news.

Google news find no relevant results for "Mother Motherland", but finds plenty of relevant results for The Motherland is Calling. Google books finds plenty of relevant results for The Motherland is Calling, and only one relevant result for Mother Motherland. Google scholar finds a couple of relevant results for Mother Motherland, and a couple of dozen relevant results for The Motherland is calling. The only real question is whether it should be "The Motherland is Calling" or the "The Motherland is Calling You", and I believe it should be simply The Motherland is Calling as the statue is based on the poster with the same name which was used during the Great Patriotic War, in which it wasn't calling individual Soviet citizens, but calling ALL Soviet citizens. --Russavia 20:18, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

  • Comment Magnetic hill, a correct google count does not count Wikipedia pages or wikipedia mirrors! That would be self-referencing. And you checked Stalingrad and Volgograd separately, but you should have OR'ed - otherwise pages where Volgograd and Stalingrad occur, get two votes! So let us do your work over, but adding the possiblity "calls " instead of "is calling":
    • Volgograd OR Stalingrad "The Motherland Calls" -wiki -> 275[2]
    • Volgograd OR Stalingrad "The Motherland Is Calling" -wiki -> 109[3]
    • Volgograd OR Stalingrad "Mother Motherland Is Calling" -wiki -> 96[4]
    • Volgograd OR Stalingrad "Mother Motherland Calls" -wiki -> 6[5]
    • Volgograd OR Stalingrad "Mother Russia Calls" -wiki -> 62[6]
    • Volgograd OR Stalingrad "Mother Russia Is Calling" -wiki -> 8[7]
So, I think we should go for "The Motherland Calls". "The Motherland Is Calling", however, contrary to what you think, is actually the highest placed of the ones we checked until now.--Pan Gerwazy 20:44, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Some one edit please

Ive added the last bit in the main article regarding the simularitys beetween Motherland state and the Winged Victory of Samothrace but im terrible at speling anyone want to lend a hand and edit it if anyone feel that its inapropiete for the article just delit it then --JvlivsCaesar 02:45, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of the following...

A exact scale replica is located in Glasnevin Dublin - Source: Ken's Magic Jumpers

Reason: The source is not linked anywhere and appears Bogus. Also I do not know of any replica in Dublin and have researched this fact too. If I am mistaken please add this back in with a link to the Dublin statue. --Mcgon (talk) 07:00, 21 April 2008 (UTC)