Talk:Thaumaturgy
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Blanked previous off-topic screed posted here from this page: please see history if you want to see it. -- Karada 14:59, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Most of the text of this is diappointingly non-encyclopedic and boderline NPOV. I've added a few phrases here or there to make it read more like an objective encylopedic entry and less like a magick tract. However, mostly I just felt compelled to link the reader to the related terms which were already referenced by the article and fix a couple of typos (and standarize on the spelling of Sephirah used by the main article on that topic. I'd love to see someone with a more academic background on this topic come in and clean it up more.JimD 09:28, 2005 Feb 20 (UTC)
I think you'll be sorely disappointed if you think that such esoteric subjects are to be found in neat, objective "encyclopedia" format, especially because such matters are not agreed upon. There exists a multitude of opinions regarding such topics, and it is possible to have a wide variety of apparently contradictory opinions be valid, depending on the reasoning behind them.
Regarding "neutral point of view," there comes a time when we have to leave political correctness behind us and present the matters from the viewpoint of those who practice them. Having a "NPOV" at all times only means that we are presenting a watered-down version of these traditions. For example, the emanationist system of the Hermetic Kabbalah is a central doctrine; if we are afraid to even say that the realm of Malkuth is a materialization of the potentials of Yesod, which contains the combination all previous Sefiroth, then I'm afraid that we'll do very little in presenting the rest of the doctrine as it is. Yogensha 23:41, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I'm inclined to agree with JimD. If a more substantial treatment of the subject is being created, you may need to get into more esoteric matters, but for the purposes of defining the term (which seems to be what this article is for at present) I think diving too deep muddies the waters.
Example: Towards the end, there is this sentence:
- For instance, practitioners believe that a Magician can, by making slight changes in the world of formation (Olam Yetzirah), such as within the Sephirah of Yesod upon which Malkuth (the material realm) is based and within which all former Sephiroth are brought together, then these alterations would emanate into the world of action (Olam Assiah).
This is grammatically incorrect, but also extremely difficult to read. I think it's partly because too much is being introduced in too small a space. A much clearer rendering would be:
- For instance, practitioners believe that a Magician can, by making slight changes in the world of formation (Olam Yetzirah), create alterations that would emanate into the world of action (Olam Assiah).
This says all that needs to be said to convey the point. Unless you are going to use terms that are already well understood, or are being used in the context of a broader topic where they have already been defined, throwing in the bits about Malkuth and Sephirah of Yesod and Sephiroth coming together really doesn't add anything. --Jimdoria 21:21, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
Jimdoria,
I agree; however, my version was grammatically correct; JimD changed it to its current version. I had written: For instance, if a Magician made slight changes in the world of formation (Olam Yetzirah), such as within the Sefirah of Yesod upon which Malkuth (the material realm) is based and within which all former Sephiroth are brought together, then these alterations would emanate into the world of action (Olam Assiah).
Yogensha 02:54, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
- The examples are very nice, but the article itself doesn't give a clear description of what thaumaturgy is. Bringing in a not-terribly-successful attempt to distinguish it from theurgy (it fails because it ultimately can't make a clear distinction between the two) just confuses the issue further. The article on theurgy just confuses it more. Would it help to redo this from an historical/etymological view? Clearly the meaning of the word has changed over time; perhaps illustrating this evolution would make the meaning clearer? The sense I get from my reading is:
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- Theurgy is ritualistic in nature, usually taking the form of religious ceremony, and seeks to make contact with or achieve union with the Godhead (thus, the definition is more specific or restrictive in scope)
- Thaumaturgy is usually not ritualized (but can be?) and represents one of the following:
- miraculous works channeled from the Godhead
- miraculous works performed independently of communication with the Godhead by a sufficiently saintly person
- apparently miraculous works performed by an individual through the use of an otherwise undefined form of magic
- Approaching it historically/etymologically might help show how the meaning of the two words diverged or converged or whatever it is they did. 12.22.250.4 20:27, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] In fiction and popular culture
I believe the section could lose some of it's parts and have a phrase like "Thaumaturgy is used in various fiction games and stories simply as a synonym for magic, or just to make up a sub-school of magic". I believe this applies to quite a few references in the section.
Those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind. 22:36, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
