Talk:Tenzing Norgay

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[edit] Birthday

From 29 May, he tops Everest on his birthday. Really? --Error

yes... User:68.101.247.109
Actually, he didn't know his exact birthday, but he knew it was about late May from the weather and the crops. He decided to treat May 29th as his birthday since that was the day he climbed Everest.
PatGallacher 11:15, 2005 Feb 11 (UTC)
Then why does it say in the first sentence of this page that his birthday is May 15 if (1) his exact birthday is uncertain and (2) he decided to treat May 29th as his birthday? Both facts contradict the statement that his birthday is May 15.
Also, the sentence "he knew roughly what time of year it was from the weather and the crops" should be clarified. I assume that it was not so much that he knew (since he was a newborn at the time) but that he was told that he was born around that time of year by his family members. —Lowellian (talk) 00:19, May 29, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Death

Some mystery surrounds his death in this article. Could someone please elaborate? User:218.214.49.92

[edit] Tenzing and Hillary

The summit chapter in "High Adventure" doesn't describe Hillary pulling Tenzing up any steps, not even the "Hillary Step". Nor does he describe Tenzing falling to the ground. Has anybody got a reference? Pete 02:47, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree. I do have a brief article from Hillary in an Everest book where he says that Tenzing had problems with his oxygen equipment on the way up, but that was resolved, and Hillary never mentions pulling Tenzing up. He does say that he cut most of the steps but not in a way that denigrates Tenzing. I think this passage should be removed unless someone can give a verifiable reference. Lisiate 22:44, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree as well. It seems a very uncharacteristic thing for Hillary to have said. (Without a reference, I find it somewhat insulting to both Tenzing and Hillary.) According to http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/page/hil0bio-1, Hillary authored three books in the 70's. The article only says: "In his book, Hillary ..." Cbotman 11:17, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I have read about this incident in Tenzing's own account of the climb; Tenzing says that Hilary made the 'fish' comparison in 'his book' and that Tenzing has always felt this to be unfair and inaccurate. However, this is from an abridged excerpt in an anthology; I will check further and edit my post accordingly... Summitscribbler 16:11, 26 July 2007

[edit] Tenzing's Birthplace

Tenzing Norgey Sherpa was born in Namche-7 Thame, Solukhumbu, Nepal.

Do you have good authority for this? There was some controversy about this, unless it was properly resolved we should not state a definitive answer. PatGallacher 12:55, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

does being born in solukhumbu as a kid count :). But then again if you have a better fact then it would be cool to know. Realnepal 17:28, 5 December 2005 (UTC)realnepal

You should refer to Ed Wester's book "Snow in the Kingdom" (2000). He attempted to climb Mount Everest from the Eastern (Kangshung) Face in 1988 and travelled with Norbu Tenzing Norgay, the eldest of Tenzing Norgay's sons. After finding relatives and place names (consistent with his father's childhood stories) in the Kharta Valley, Norbu pretty much proved exactly where in Tibet his father was born. csearl 17:17, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
In Tenzing's book Tiger of the Snows he clearly indicates that he remembered being told by his mother that they used to visit the Ghang-La monastery east of Kharta in the Rapchu Valley (this was in fact the monastery whose lama named Tenzing "Namgyal Wangdi" - his first name). Tenzing's mother, Mingma, was from the hamlet of Moyey, in the Kharta region, and by family accounts, Tenzing was indeed born in this region, most likely nearer, or even at, the monastery itself than in Moyey. Regarding all of this though, it should be stated in the article Tenzing's feelings about his nationality:
In a way, Tibet is the home of my spirit, but as a living man I am a stranger there. Mountains are my home but one does not build his house and raise his family on a peak or glacier. Solu Khumbu was once my home but I am now only an occasional visitor. Today my home is Darjeeling.
By accounts, Tenzing was a Sherpa and that was all that was important to him. Oh, I think it should be mentioned in the article that the name of the Norgay household in Darjeeling is "Ghang-La", after the monestary. --Bentonia School 05:25, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I want a citation for the claim that the head lama of Rongbuk monestary named Tenzing. I have other citations, from Tenzing and his family that he was named by the lama at Ghang-La monastery. --Bentonia School (talk) 05:18, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

ODNB gives Rongbuk and we have to go with verifiable (published) sources, per policies (WP:V, WP:OR). David Underdown (talk) 11:10, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Okay, but it seems suspect. --Bentonia School (talk) 17:07, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tenzing Norgay's nationality

I asked this question on Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities but didn't get a concrete answer. Jay 10:06, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Which country did Tenzing Norgay belong to ? Was he Nepalese, Chinese (Tibetan) or Indian ? Did he ever change his citizenship officially ? What was his nationality during the time when he scaled the Everest ? Jay 11:48, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

The article you link says it all, really - he was Nepalese, although there were occasional rumours that he may have actually been Chinese. He lives some of his life in India. To the best of my knowledge, he was a Nepalese citizen at all times, and certainly he was during the 1953 ascent. Grutness...wha? 12:06, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I guess so too, but several General Knowledge and text books say he was the first 'Indian' to scale Everest. Jay 03:58, 2 February 2006 (UTC)


The short answer to this is that this question may not have a concrete answer, it may be an example of trying to impose Western concepts like "nationality" on non-Western societies. Tenzing himself said later that this was not an issue at the time he climbed Everest, he had never owned a passport before this. After he climbed Everest, Nepal and India both claimed them as his own, and he said he belonged to both of them. The technical answer may be that he had dual nationality (or possibly even triple nationality). PatGallacher 21:50, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, that will do for me, since I was wondering if Norgay should be included in List of firsts in India. But isn't the concept of nationality universal as opposed to western ? Perhaps citizenship is a western concept, but even that may not be true. Jay 08:26, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Tenzing said himself, "In a way, Tibet is the home of my spirit, but as a living man I am a stranger there. Mountains are my home but one does not build his house and raise his family on a peak or glacier. Solu Khumbu was once my home but I am now only an occasional visitor. Today my home is Darjeeling." He carried no passport at any time as Tibetans, Nepalis, and Indians didn't - and still don't - require passports to enter any of these nations. They can pass freely across the borders. When Tenzing went to other nations, he most likely was allowed passport-gratis entry as he was always a guest of some political or social dignitary. The idea of nationality was not within him, he was a Sherpa, and that's all that mattered. Of course, such free ideology would, unfortunately, not fly today. --Bentonia School 05:34, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chomolangma

Good point about the name Pat, I assumed because the Mount Everest article said the other name was Nepalese it was the one used byt he Sherpas. I didn't realise their language is different. 22:30, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Sherpa language does not have written form"

This is an interesting statement. Regardless, Tenzin's name is Tibetan, and was given to him by a Lama, who would be literate in Tibetan Script. The sherpa for the days of the week are identical to those in Tibetan. Sherpa is Tibetan for "Easterner". Have you looked at any of the prayer flags in the Sherpa region? They are covered in.. Tibetan Script. Seen any of the books read by the Lamas of Sherpa? Tibetan Script. So, what I am wondering is what you mean by Sherpa language does not have written form, and how it applies to Tenzin Norgay, who was quite possibly born in Tshechu, in Tibet. Moreover, བསྟན་འཛིན་ནོར་རྒྱས - his name as it would be written by those Sherpas who are literate, mean "holder of the teachings" (tendzin) and "fortunate" (norgye). So, though it is True that Sharwa is also very connected to Nepali, and has it's own roots, it must be understood that the Monastaries, and all the Lamas used Tibetan - indeed, all Sharwas can understand Tibetan.(20040302 20:54, 28 April 2006 (UTC)) Addendum: see Tibetan language for an entry of Sherpa.

I object to including Tenzing's name in the Tibetan script to some extent on the practical grounds that it just comes up as a line of boxes on my computer, and I suspect a lot of other people's computers. My main authority for my statements is actually Tenzing himself, I have just consulted Man of Everest. In several places he says that the Sherpa language has no written form, and he refers to Tibetan as a separate language, albeit one similar to Sherpa. When he went back to Namche Bazar in Solo Khumbu in 1952 he saw that there was now a school, but it was teaching in Nepali. So it may be that historically Tibetan was the cultural language of the small number of educated Sherpas, but even in the 1950s Nepali was taking over this role. It was also the language he knew best after his native Sherpa. Tenzing never became fully literate, but in later years he learned to sign his name in the Latin script, I am not aware he learned to sign it in any other script. So I do not consider there is sufficient justification for including his name in the Tibetan script. Why not include the Chinese version as well, since Tibet is now part of China, or Nepali or Hindi? PatGallacher 21:10, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Sherpa is a dialect of Tibetan in the same sense that the speech of most of the Tibetan cultural area is. In general, these are conventionally written in Classical Tibetan, even though the spoken form is significantly different. It's probably true that, traditionally, very few Sherpas were literate, but, the same can be said of Lhasa and the rest of Tibet (and, for that matter, most places). So, I don't think that writing a Sherpa's name in Tibetan is the same as writing it in Chinese or Hindi. However, in this person's case, it doesn't really seem necessary, since he was apparently not in an environment where written Tibetan was very important in his life. - Nat Krause(Talk!) 22:19, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I have had a look at this link, it regards Sherpa as a language, albeit part of the Tibetan group. It appears there have recently been attempts to develop written forms of Sherpa, using the Devanagari and Tibetan scripts, but neither is widely used, although the former is more common. It's possible that the man himself would have regarded the English version as the primary written version of his name, since when he had to have dealings with people in writing it was usually in English (or other languages which use the Latin script) and this was the version which he signed. So it would be artificial to give his name in any other language. PatGallacher 10:33, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Pat, there is much more to this. Recently (in the last decade) the residents of Sharwa, when asked which written form they would like to use at schools, generally decided they would prefer to use Tibetan script, even though most of them are more familiar with Devanagari (from Nepali).
The domain shift away from Sherpa and Tibetan toward Nepali and English, especially in the Sharwa family home among males and young people, as well as the proliferation of new commercial situations in which Nepali language facilitates cooperation between different ethnic groups, probably indicates that Nepali is progressively replacing Sharwa among Sharwa speakers.
Future studies would ideally be empirical and diachronic, testing whether Sharwa is in reality losing ground to Nepali among younger people and in mainstream or poly-ethnic situations. Another interesting subject in Sharwa language use is whether as Fisher (1990) suggests, Sharwa emphasis on religion is intensifying, so that while the number of Nepali-preferable situations is steadily increasing, the number of Sharwa cultural religious venues using H-variety Tibetan is also increasing. Further investigation might expand and more fully characterize language-choice behavior during the post-1990 collapse of the international tourist economy and ongoing civil war.
Sherpa does indeed belong to the Tibetan group of languages, though it has many loanwords, as is found throughout the Indian subcontinent. Regardless, I continue to dispute that Sherpa has no written form: such a statement in my mind is patronising and reductive to the extreme, regardless of the author. If one wishes to be accurate, one could state that Sherpa has many cultural influences, including multiple sources for it's scripts. Regardless, up until the 1950's, it's written form was Tibetan, and since 1990 or so, the community has been decisive about re-adopting their cultural roots, in face of the strong erosion of their culture over the last 50 years or so.
The Lama that named Tenzin Norgye did so from within a particularly Tibetan stream of the Sherpa culture: Namely the Buddhist stream. FYI, the Tibetan script is recognised by China as a valid script for Chinese (Tibetan) documents.
Of course the fact that you haven't got a Tibetan font on your computer is no argument at all. (20040302 14:10, 4 May 2006 (UTC))

On further consideration I'm prepared to go along with the inclusion of the version of his name in the Tibetan script, providing it is clearly labelled as such, but anyone who knows the Devanagari script version should feel free to add it as well. PatGallacher 01:58, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

  • Sherpa Language does have a written form. Sherpa was written in Tibetan scrpit. Still, it is written in Tibetan script in some places. However, just like Nepal Bhasa, Tamang, Limbu or any other Sino-Tibetan languages in Nepal, more people using the language know Devnagari than their respective scripts. Much of the newer and practical publications in any of the Sino-Tibetan languages are in Devnagari although some groups are dedicated to revive the other scripts as well. Also, the Government of Nepal regards Sherpa and Tibetan as a different languages and so does Government of India. These are the only two nations with significant Sherpa population and no one seems to be complaining over here. There are times when experts have to make comments about similarity and differences in two entities but that shouldnt be used as a basis of claiming non existence of an entity. Although some genetic scientists believe that humans and chimps are 99% the same genetically, you cant simply say that humans are chimps. Besides, there are languages like Hindi and Urdu which is almost the same, yet they are considered different. Also, please get out of this stereotype that Lama=Tibetan, there are tens of thousands of Nepalese lamas. Its like thinking Catholic priest=Italian. Thanks.--Eukesh 18:44, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] George Medal

Is it worth mentioning that for his part in the Mount Everest expedition, Tenzing Norgay was awarded the George Medal? Davery06 18:16, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mallory and Irvine

Did somebody hear about a well guarded secret about China having undeniable proof that Mallory and Irvine summited, and that they, the chinese, are holding the information until Sir Hillary dies, afraid that the news will upset the old man too much?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:201.19.171.206

Please sign your posts. Also, comments go at the bottom of the page, not the top. Also, how does anyone know what is contained in a well guarded secret? Also, do you think we should put Conspiracy theory cats on all of the pages you have posted this same comment too? Moriori 23:35, 20 August 2006 (UTC)


Sounds like balderdash to me. --Bentonia School 05:36, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, Hillary is gone and this still sounds like balderdash to me. --Bentonia School (talk) 14:12, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "all the photos that existed of the mountaineers on the top showed only Tenzing ..."

Can we get one? :)

I imagine it'd be fair use - practically the definition of a historic and unreproducable image! FiggyBee 12:04, 10 February 2007 (UTC)


Tenzing said in in biography that he asked Hillary to take him a photo, but he did'nt want.

[edit] Who was first on summit?

The story that Tenzing ever claimed that he was first to set foot on Everest seems dubious, this is the first I have heard of it, I propose to revert soon unless someone can source this. It is unlikely that money would have influenced him. From his account in his autobioraphy, shortly after he climbed Everest there were statements put in front of him which he signed without knowing what they said, as he was illiterate. Shortly after Hillary and him issued a joint statement that they had reached the summit almost together, and a year or 2 later Tenzing was big enough to disclose that Hillary had been first to set foot. PatGallacher 14:25, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, everything you've said up until "a year or 2 later Tenzing was big enough to disclose that Hillary had been first to set foot" is incorrect. Tenzing Sherpa and Sir Edmund made a gentleman's agreement before Tenzing died to actually never reveal who stepped up first. In the affidavit that they both signed it stated "we summited almost together". All through his life, Tenzing never actually revealed who stepped up first. In his book, it is not clearly stated that Hillary was first, rather Tenzing was being gentle about the whole situation, especially when he said (paraphrased) "If I am the second man to have summited Everest, then that's something I'll just have to live with." Jamling Norgay states in his book Touching My Father's Soul that he questioned his father many times about who was the first, and Tenzing would always reply that he and Hillary were a team, tethered together, inseparable halves of a single whole. They did it together. Now, at the 40th Anniversary celebration of the acent in 1993, Sir Hillary broke that gentleman's agreement and stated that he was first to reach the summit. Whether this is true or not (Tenzing was dead by then), the fact that Hillary broke that agreement - not to mention the legal affidavit - is enough for me to loosen my respect for Sir Hillary. When faced with questions his whole life, either by family or media, Tenzing always refused to answer the question. That's enough for me to tighten my immense respect for Tenzing Norgay Sherpa --Bentonia School 05:59, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Naturally, your respect or lack thereof for Tenzing and Hillary do not go to the issue of who was first at the summit, but they're nevertheless interesting observations, Bentonia School. -- JackofOz 06:13, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I never assumed my opinions would be added into the article, but the facts mentioned thereof do have a place. The article states that Tenzing admitted that Hillary was first when in fact that was not actually the case, there is much more to it than that. --Bentonia School 15:22, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I have not read Jamling's account but I have read Tenzing and Ullman's, it is quite unambiguous, it says that Hillary was first, I have a copy somewhere, I could dig it up and give an exact quote. I am not aware of any "gentleman's agreement", or that the statements signed in 1953 were legal affadavits. PatGallacher 16:35, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I have Tiger of the Snows as well (hard to find, out of print [except in Nepal]; it's cool that you have a copy), and like I said, I believe Tenzing was approaching the situation gently in his publication (the article already mentions Tenzing's book quote anyway). All other accounts by Tenzing's family (except the not-so-humble Tashi Tenzing, who only cites Tigers of the Snows anyway) say that he never talked about who stepped up first as an individual, he only spoke of it as a team. Even when Tenzing visited Australia in 1964, the first question he was asked by media was "Who was really first?". Tenzing ignored the question and never even gave a response. All I'm saying is, I think it should be mentioned in the article that all other sources (some of which I've cited, and can cite more) indicate that Tenzing ignored the question his whole life, depised the question, and that it in fact became his curse. It was Hillary who broke the promised silence (legal or not, they signed those papers and agreed with one another), after Tenzing's death. The whole fact of the matter is that Tenzing took the right stance on the situation and ignored the question. As the article nicely states, Tenzing felt that it was a team effort, that no one man stepped up first, that no one would have made it without the entire team, even those down at the lower camps, and especially not without the Sherpas. --Bentonia School 04:45, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name issues

_ _ We refer to him as "Tenzing" in subsequent refs, but to his son Jamling Tenzing Norgay as "Norgay". I'm guessing that is correct, but IMO it deserves explicit discussion in the article, where some users will come for guidance beyond "this is what WP does".
_ _ The son's bio conforms to my understanding that (for him) "Norgay" is either a surname, or what he uses as his surname among those who expect everyone to have one. He lectures as "Jamling Norgay" without referring to "Tenzing" as part of his name (which makes me question the inclusion of "Tenzing" in that article's title -- tho there are an awful lot of hits for the 3-word version in the early Ghits on

Jamling Norgay

(and one must assume for

Norgay Jamling

) in the absence of quote marks. I note that National Geographic uses "Norgay" among the surnames of others of the father's party, and Amazon styles the son "Jamling T. Norgay" (and they must be aware of tricky surnames, since they never say "Sacha Cohen" for Sacha Baron Cohen, but only for a Sacha Cohen, whose books are all on painting rooms).
_ _ The implicit evidence in the accompanying article is that his (the father's) daughter's children have "Tenzing" in their names, but this is neither unambiguous (that can happen with given names in the West, and while i think the son is more Westernized than the father -- What do you eat on summit day? "Snickers, Reese's Pieces ... and tea, of course." -- both are surely more Westernized than nearly all Sherpas, so what father and son on one hand, and other descendants on the other, do does not make it clear whether he thot of himself as having a surname from birth, or having acquired one, or having pretended to have one, is far from being deducible from Nepalese customs or his descendants' custom. (Or perhaps one should hedge: "respective customs".))
_ _ I do assume that we conform to WP:UCN by using the Westernized quasi-surnames of non-Westerners (and Hungarians) who Westernize their names when dealing with native speakers of English, tho i'm not sure i've ever seen that stated explicitly.
--Jerzy•t 22:29, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
From his autbiography, I don't think he regarded Norgay as a surname in the western sense, although some of his descendants may have come to treat it as such. PatGallacher (talk) 21:46, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I have seen and heard his name as both "Tenzing" and "Tenzig" could anyone explain this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.13.90.118 (talk) 20:47, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Early life

This article makes some claims about his early life: http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,2239898,00.html Curiously, this raises the question of whether he was actually a Sherpa by birth, or a Tibetan. PatGallacher (talk) 21:46, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

The issues about his private life need quite a bit of clarification. Whatever his reasons his family may have had for moving to Nepal when he was younger, it was well before the Chinese occupation of Tibet. it is unlikely that he changed his name to a Sherpa name to curry favour with the Nepali govt., since logically he would have changed it to a Nepali name. Can somebody consult Jamling Tenzing Norgay's account, or possibly Tashi Tenzing's? PatGallacher (talk) 19:12, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Unless someone provides clearer sources, this seems the best way of tackling his early life. PatGallacher (talk) 16:23, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. A serious rewrite is in order. I'll go through all my sources and make comparisons here. Give me a few days. --Bentonia School (talk) 17:12, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Norgay was a Nepali. There is no question about it. 202.79.62.21 (talk) 14:32, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

There are questions about it, the sources are in conflict, so we cannot state boldly one way or the otehr, no matter what you might believe. David Underdown (talk) 14:53, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] bonded_servant: There are conflicting accounts about his early life.

Yes, & the article seems to prove it by self-conflicting.

If he had spent his childhood as a slave, indentured_servant, then that should affect his other child - references.

Who had said that he had been born in May? "...weather and the crops", which he remembered from a month old? Which family named him Namgyal_Wangdi?

"wealthy-fortunate-follower-of-religion" refers to his name, how? Which word is which? In which language? On which side of which border?

His parents are listed; are these his biological parents, or his slavemaster parents?

There should be disambiguation with Victoria_Toensing & Joseph_DiGenova. As well as w/ similar words, as the spelling is not simple for everyone,.... gay,....

Tenzing_ _Norgay

Thank You,

[[ hopiakuta Please do sign your signature on your message. ~~ Thank You. -]] 15:00, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

There may be problems disentangling different accounts of his early life. Most of this is taken from his autobiography Man of Everest/Tiger of the Snows, this article may not be able to deal with this issues better until somebody has a proper look at other accounts. The references to his early life should be taken as referring to his biological parents. PatGallacher (talk) 15:06, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I do, hereby, thank you for that effort; however, I, as well, continue to contest all of those issues.

I did neglect to mention my inspiration, Tenzing_Hillary_Airport:

< http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7238874.stm >, Lukla airstrip, Lukla Airstrip, Lukla airstrip.

"... Lukla to Everest base camp would now be called the Tenzing Hillary Trekking Route,..."

Himalayan_Trust American_Himalayan_Foundation

"Sir Edmund and Tenzing Norgay's ascent of Everest on 29 May 1953 ushered in the second Elizabethan age, coming as the achievement did just days before the monarch's coronation. The Queen knighted Sir Edmund on his return."

[[ hopiakuta Please do sign your signature on your message. ~~ Thank You. -]] 15:40, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

The issue of his early life and background is a confused issue, but this article is making it even more confused than I suspect it is in reality. Whatever his or his family's reasons may have been for leaving Tibet it must have been before the Chinese communist takeover.

"Norgay" is:- a) not a surname in the Western sense b) as far as I am aware either Sherpa or Tibetan (they are related) not Nepalese (a completey unrelated language) c) it raises a whole series of problems to say he only adopted it to curry favour with the Nepalese govt.. PatGallacher (talk) 18:29, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Birthday (again)

Britannica and others state that May 15 is his birthday, but other sites state May 29; is there any way to conclusively determine his birthday? Also, can we rectify this on the article as well as the date articles? 199.91.34.33 (talk) 14:17, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

This point in the article is based on "Tiger of the Snows" which unless anyone comes up with anything better is I suggest the best source we have on this at present. I don't know where these other works are getting their information from. PatGallacher (talk) 16:05, 15 May 2008 (UTC)