Talk:Swan Lake

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[edit] Article length/Cleanup

  • I cleaned it up a bit in order to make it clearer to a wider audience, but there is a great deal of information here now, more than most people would ever want to read, I think! Much of the info stated in this article is either immensely trivial and/or not completely verifiable due to the large amount (mountains of it) of incorrect "historical facts" which have been recounted --and publiished-- but which cannot all be true. In this spirit, perhaps less would be more for our wonderful Wiki Swan Lake! Queenofthewilis 12:04, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
  • The introduction to this article is a mess. It needs to be parsed down to a simple definition that is accessible to a wide audience. All that other information needs to be moved into a different section, as it is not important enough to be in the intro (such as the huge list of Balletmasters and choreographers).
  • The people adding loads of information need to read the Wikipedia:Manual of style and proofread their edits before dumping the information onto the page. Your contributions are appreciated, but don't trash things for Christssakes! 71.240.9.37
  • I tried to restructure the article, so the introduction is concise. I could not find the proper place to put "The Ballet has 4 Acts, 4 Scenes (primarily outside Russia and Eastern Europe) or 3 Acts, 4 Scenes (primarily in Russia and Eastern Europe)." so I left it out, although I know it should be mentioned. My language in the introduction could be improved as can the titles I put in new sections.--Atavi 02:31, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
  • This article is definitely in need of editing. While the various sections contain a lot of information, I truly do not believe that it is all needed here. This is the main point: ENTIRE books can be written about the ballet Swan Lake, (and have been). But is this what Wikipedia should be doing? This is no longer just a matter of "cleaning things up". An encyclopedia does not have to be a thesis... I believe I miss our dear little Swan Lake article that existed earlier in the summer. What does every one else in the WikiDance group feel? I Would love the opinions of others on this and how to proceed. Queenofthewilis 02:25, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Wow. I just visited the article for the first time, and my jaw dropped lower and lower as I scrolled down page after page after page after page .... Gadzoiks, this article *packed* and *long*. In the end, tho, I have to agree with Queenofthewilis - this article represents those rare times were a Wiki article actually hits, and blasts past, critical mass.
As I scanned through the article, I kept catching myself wishing there were summaries of each section (for example, each act in the section dealing with the acts of the piece): this is a clear warning flag that there may be too much info in the article. But, kudos to all the work that has gone into the article: future editors and cleaners-up will have a wealth of material to work with.
I want to highlight the first sentence in the article: it was this that actually brought me here to this discussion page. I think the first sentence itself is a good example of the overabundance of information in the article:
"Swan Lake (ru. Лебединое Озеро) is a ballet presented in either four Acts, four Scenes (primarily outside Russia and Eastern Europe) or three Acts, four Scenes (primarily in Russia and Eastern Europe), based on a libretto by Vladimir Begichev and (possibly) Vasily Geltser, fashioned from an ancient German legend, which tells the story of Odette, a princess turned into a swan by an evil sorcerer's curse."
Yikes! Thats a whole lot of information crammed in there, and the result is difficult to parse. I think the rest of the article follows this dense tone, and agree that it could be worth considering doing a global lowering of information resolution, so to speak. Dxco 23:00, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
  • I must "beg for the pardon" from anyone who has a problem with my transformation of this article into a prolific, info-packed, "Swan Lake" bible. I know that some of you, for whatever reason, would rather have a more "summed up" approach to the article. I must point out that there are quite alot places online where one could go to find a "summed up" page on the ballet "Swan Lake", and if I would have done something along those lines with our wikipedia article, then what would be the point? Why would someone come to wikipedia for their "Swan Lake needs" if they can get the same info here that they can get on any one of those many other web pages? Wikipedia gives one an extraordinary opportunity to provide comprehensive articles on all sorts of subjects, and I saw an oppurtunity to contribute...to make the article something that is worthy of being called an encyclopedia article with regard to the info it provides - since I know for a fact one cannot get most of this info on the web (there are no ballet-only encyclopedias online as of yet), or without consulting old, out-of-print books...I wanted to share it with everyone. I did the same thing on a few other ballet-related articles I have written, or expanded on a great deal. The info I have added on "Swan Lake" is by NO MEANS thesis, and I did not contribute 1 sentence that even points to anything theoretical. Its all facts. Since I type fast and have my own balletic-data-base in my head and on my book shelves, it was really not much trouble. But anyway I have no problem compromising, so should anyone wish to down-grade the article, be my guest, but I really dont see what this will accomplish in the long run. For if it is taken back to the level of the "dear little article" it used to be, then there really isnt any point in accessing the page. --Mrlopez2681 06:21, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
  • No complaints from this peanut gallery, Mrlopez. I think the Wikipedia article(s) on Swan Lake are most informative. You might be the just person to answer my question below about the famous long-lost Sobshchanskaya Pas de Deux below. Regards, Csmpsn (talk) 09:04, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures

The de.wikipedia.org page on Swan Lake (Schwanensee) has a lot of information that ought to be on the English page, including a number of pictures. Someone should translate it. Tcassedy 06:45, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Christopher Wheeldon

Apparently there have been dozens of versions of Swan Lake. The version [1] I saw last night was written and choreographed by Christopher Wheeldon, and it embeds the classic story inside a framing story about a ballet company performing the classic Swan Lake, and makes explicit reference to the ballet paintings of Degas. I think it deserves mention here. Rpresser 14:36, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree that it would be interesting to list some of the many ways that Swan Lake has been embedded in other stories and reworked in original ways by choreographers. Matthew Bourne's famous staging in which the swans are danced by men comes to mind. However, Wheeldon's version that you saw at Pennsylvania Ballet isn't itself equal in importance to the normal versions danced by City Ballet, ABT, the Bolshoi, and so on. We could have a "reworkings" section. Tcassedy 16:21, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Music and Translations from French

I've added information on the music. The translation from French was done off-the-cuff, so I'm not sure if it's spot on. (Particularly: Entrance of the Guests, since I'm not sure if sortie can be used like that, but I seem to remember it as the guests entering. Dance of the Cygnets, because it literally tanslates as "Dance of the Little Swans". So are they babies or physically small? I chose babies. Dance of the Glasses because I've seen it translated as goblet rather than glass, but I think there is a different French word for goblet. I didn't translate "Corps de Ballet" because the noun is widely used in English.) Also, I left out the info about adagios, andantes, allegros, etc. under the Pas de deux and other parts. Should I include them? I feel like it would make things too long, and I really don't know enough about wiki-formatting to make it look better (with tables or something). Guermantes 21:44, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

It's "Little Swans." Tcassedy 16:21, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm... I did some googling after my original message and saw that the translations I had issues with where translated in a variety of ways (so I left them as is). Does anyone know of a reasonably authoritative listing of the English titles? Guermantes 05:53, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Schubert's 8th

I just saw the {{fact}} tag about Schubert. There is no citation as far as I know about the music in the moderato scene resembling schubert 8th symphony, first movement. However, I have listened repeatedly to both pieces and I think that the resemblence is striking. In fact, when I first listened to the 8th, I briefly thought I was listening to Swan lake. Please if you have a different opinion, or indeed those of you who have the same, write about it on the talk page. If a majority feels that there isn't a significant resemblence, or if someone feels very strongly that there isn't I will not object to removing the passage ----Atavi 18:12, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I added that fact tag because it's the type of thing that I could see other editors removing as "original research". You can remove it if you wish; I was just hoping someone would find a source for it, as it is an interesting tidbit. Guermantes 18:43, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
You're right, that this could be termed "original research", even though it's something that if it is true, it should be straightforward to spot. I won't remove the tag, but I will try to find a source.-Atavi 20:29, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Odette/Odile Etc.

I edited the text to the effect that Odette and Odile are not always danced by the same person. I based this on http://www.balletmet.org/Notes/SWANLAKE.HTM I don't put the link in the main article, because it is too specific to that choreography and performance to feature as a reference for a general article. --Atavi 13:38, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of whatever it may say on the Balletnotes web page, Odette/Odile is always danced by the same person - the tradition of having the role danced by 2 different Ballerinas has not been "in effect" since the 1950s in Russia.
Just because a web page says something doesnt mean its true. If I am going to contribute anything regarding ballet history it is true. :Mrlopez2681 07:58, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
It appears that someone did use two different dancers. The web page I used as a reference is the official webpage of Ballet Met at Columbus, Ohio. Not the best ballet company in the world, but this doesn't change the fact that they chose to use two different ballerinas. The page is an "interview" with David Nixon.--Atavi 08:25, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Odette is not always danced by the same person, especially in less accomplished performances. To say otherwise is a falsehood. The role ws intended for the same woman to play both parts. Precision of language is a must in this situation. 130.49.148.187

[edit] This is an Encyclopedia is it not???

I dont think that WIKIPEDIA should be a place where things are summed up.

With the amount of information that I contributed there was, until it was removed, a place where one could find info not available anywhere else on the web......that is my goal at least to share knowledge, etc.

Your information was not removed. It was moved. Swan Lake#Choreography Development--Atavi 08:16, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Orchestral suite

Does anybody know the complete index of the orchestral suite? As far as I am concerned:

  1. Play
  2. Waltz
  3. Dance of the Little Swans

I do not think this is complete (resource:a compilation CD).

Coeshee 08:53, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

There are actually three versions of the orchestral suite (Op. 20a) presently in circulation, none of which were actually extracted by the composer. The first, which was published in November 1900 by Jurgenson (full score, plate 25803, 102 pages; parts, plate 25804) - reprinted by Boosey & Hawkes, Eulenburg, Dover, Kalmus-Alfred, et al. This suite, which may have been extracted by Riccardo Drigo, consists of the following movements (The numbering below in parens is from the original 1877 ballet score):

  1. Scene (No. 10 - Act II, which is also the Act II Finale, No. 14 - they are identical)
  2. Valse (No. 2 - Act I)
  3. Danse des Cygnes (No. 13, Var. IV - Act II), aka Dance of the Little Swans, though the original Danse des Petits Cygnes is No. 27
  4. Scene (No. 13, Var. V 'Pas d'Action' - Act II, abridged)
  5. Czardas - Danse Hongroise (No. 20 - Act III)
  6. Scene (No. 28, plus the first 26 bars of No. 29 'Finale' - Act IV)

The second version published (Moscow, 1954, Muzgiz), dropped the last movement of the 1900 version and added three of the national dances from Act III. It used the music plates, with typographical modifications, from the 1900 suite and the full ballet score issued by Jurgenson in 1895 or 1896. This suite was reprinted by E. F. Kalmus as A2185 until 2006. Its contents are:

  1. Scene (No. 10 - Act II)
  2. Valse (No. 2 - Act I)
  3. Danse des Cygnes (No. 13, Var. IV - Act II)
  4. Scene (No. 13, Var. V 'Pas d'Action' - Act II, abridged)
  5. Czardas - Danse Hongroise (No. 20 - Act III)
  6. Danse Espagnole (No. 21 - Act III)
  7. Danse Napolitaine (No. 22 - Act III)
  8. Mazurka (No. 24 - Act III)

The third version of Op. 20 was issued in 2006 by E. F. Kalmus and is a new engraving altogether (A2185, 132 pages, music on 5-129 and orchestra parts) and edited by myself (Carl Simpson). It is really an amalgamation of the two preceding suites, which leaves the performer the option to do either the 1900, 1954, or even the 2006 suite, which restores the 1900 final movement with a slight re-titling as "Scene et Finale." Its complete order is therefore:

  1. Scene (No. 10 - Act II)
  2. Valse (No. 2 - Act I)
  3. Danse des Cygnes (No. 13, Var. IV - Act II)
  4. Scene (No. 13, Var. V 'Pas d'Action' - Act II, abridged)
  5. Czardas - Danse Hongroise (No. 20 - Act III)
  6. Danse Espagnole (No. 21 - Act III)
  7. Danse Napolitaine (No. 22 - Act III)
  8. Mazurka (No. 24 - Act III)
  9. Scene et Finale (No. 28, plus the first 26 bars of No. 29 'Finale' - Act IV)

The whole thing lasts about 35 minutes. Much like the tradition surrounding the ballet itself, there are a number of conductors over the years who've made up their own "suites" from Swan Lake, most of which contain at least some of the movments listed above. Csmpsn (talk) 08:59, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Table

I eliminated the combination Synopsis/Structure table. Rationale:

1) To make this page consistent with others that have separate Synopses and Structure sections.
2) Maintaining them together limits the ability to embed graphics.
3) The two lists did not synchronize event-wise, and would likely continue to fail to align, given periodic changes to each list. Ivan Velikii (talk) 02:27, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tchaikovsky Pas de Deux (No. 19a)

While the Wikipedia article gives a fairly decent overview of how this piece came about as a result of Anna Sobeshchanskaya's trip to St. Peterburg to see Petipa who supplied the choreography while Minkus supplied the music, I have seen no evidence whatever for the assertion made in the article that Tchaikovsky simply re-harmonized and re-orchestrated Minkus' score. Neither R. J. Wley (Tchaikovsky's Ballets), Jordan & Kirkor (Polnoe Sobrannie Sochinenii - Complete Works, Vol. 11), or Poznansky & Langston (The Tchaikovsky Handbook) make this claim. In fact, all three works specifically mention that Tchaikovsky composed a new score which matched Minkus' in terms of tempo and number of beats, and that Sobeshchanskaya was so pleased with Tchaikosvky's work she requested an addiional variation, which was supplied. Jordan & Kirkor also mention the discovery of the long-missing violin repetiteur (an arrangement for two violins) and a set of orchetsra parts for the 2nd variation in their preface. The remainder of the work has been reconstructed from the repetiteur by Vissarion Shebalin. Would someone care to elaborate? Csmpsn (talk) 08:40, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Adaptations

Why are references in popular culture integrated into the adaptations heading? That doesn't make much sense. 151.201.32.126 (talk) 02:13, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tschaikovsky vs. Tchaikovsky

How should the name of the composer of the music for “Serenade” be spelled? Most Westerners now spell it Tchaikovsky, but City Ballet took up, during Balanchine’s lifetime, the spelling Tschaikovsky. Why? Because that’s how the composer spelled it when he was in New York in 1891. (My thanks to the reader who sent me a copy of his Carnegie Hall autograph from the Pierpont Morgan Library.)

NY Times article by Alastair Macaulay, June 1, 2007
— Robert Greer (talk) 11:30, 5 June 2008 (UTC)