Talk:Supermodel

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[edit] Supermodel Definition

My initial feeling on reading this article is that it plays loose and fast with the term "supermodel." Mainly, it seems as if one important, arguably defining distinction of "supermodel" has been neglected here: The model who's also a household name.

It seems as if this article confuses "working model" with "supermodel," as commercial appearances, and even a memorable and lengthy tenure on the runway, do not a supermodel make. The concept has always transcended the fashion and marketing industries, so a model well-known in the industry hasn't necessarily earned the right to be called a "supermodel."

I'm in favor of elucidating this a bit more with some (more intelligible) form of the statement: "However, the elite models who are given the appellation of 'supermodel' often share similar traits. Among those is that their names are popularly and internationally known outside of the fashion and media industries." Just a suggestion.

Here's some evidence to support a change like this: Dickinson's use of the term was not strictly in reference to the amount of work that she was doing, but the profile of that work. (That is, she was a spokesperson for Revlon, not merely appearing in her commercials.) Dickinson interview

Heidi Klum: "'Supermodel' means you're a household name as a fashion model." Excerpt from Jon Bowe's "GIG"

Tyra Banks: "A supermodel is a chameleon. She can change with the times and with the fashions, but at the same time has branded herself to be a household name, which is very rare ... if you can do a survey across America asking if they know this woman's name and they do, that's a supermodel. Someone like Cindy Crawford or Claudia Schiffer." Tyra Banks interview at EW.com

I should point out that the existing statement in the article, "Supermodels often parlay their celebrity into product endorsement deals and acting careers," is in keeping with this definition: They have a personal brand strong enough to support both of these roles.

My thought is that the current definition, "highly-paid elite fashion model who usually has a worldwide reputation and often a background in haute couture and commercial modeling" is pretty spot on. I think your comments blur the distinction between "supermodel" and "celebrity". Paris Hilton and Heidi Klum are both celebrities, but neither is a Supermodel because neither has the high fashion or editorial background necessary to qualify. It's no surprise that Klum (not a Supermodel) and Banks (a frequent baseline for arguments about Supermodel status) would be pushing this "if people know your name you are a Supermodel" nonsense.Bogan444 (talk) 22:54, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Thoughts? I suppose you could also make an argument for this being the old definition of supermodel. --Csaunders4z 22:06, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

The media and the fashion industry have different views on who should be called a "supermodel". Media tends to use it more loosely and without regard. However, it is not the same with the fashion industry. I was hoping the two views can be elaborated. (Number1spygirl 01:59, 27 July 2007 (UTC)).

Wikipedia lists four different people as being the "first supermodel." We have Janice Dickinson's claims, Gia Carangi, this article's reference to Lisa Fonssagrives and another reference to Dorian Leigh in a footnote on the Carangi page. This article should lay out the case for the most likely candidate and each of the other pages should be edited to conform to this page. GregE625 (talk) 14:52, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Upcoming Supermodels

This section should go. This section is there to make "predictions" (how do we know who is and who will not be a "supermodel"?) and is akin to an "Upcoming superstars" category on a page about celebrity. It doesn't belong in an encyclopedia, and one could make the argument it is a vanity section. I'll wait a few days before removing it. --DavidShankBone 18:33, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Origins

In the origins of the term, shouldn't something be said about Janice Dickinson's claim that she coined the term when talking to her booker in (I think it was) France? KyrieSanctus 03:15, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

It's already there in the second paragraph of the "Origins..." mirageinred 00:54, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I think this paragraph should go -- it's pretty clear that she did not invent or even popularize the term. In which case her claim is not germane to the point; and the piece says more about her than it does about the term supermodel. Therefore it should be cut out and placed in Ms. Dickinson's entry (if she has one).Cross Reference 23:43, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, she has an article here on Wikipedia. I mean, of course. And, no, I don't feel that the mention of her claiming to have invented the term should be taken out. It's not saying that she invented it, but only that she claims to have. And I feel that her claim is notable, seeing as some people in the modeling industry don't even try to refute that claim of hers and she says that particular claim often. Flyer22 01:13, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Globalization

April 3rd 2007.

This topic needs more information about international supermodels. I added the following info, but someone deleted it later on without explaining why? I'd like to know.

Traditionally supermodels have only been popular in North America and Europe but with globalization and increased economic success supermodels are becoming popular in Africa and Asia in countries which have benefitted the most from a bolstered economy.

African Supermodels:

Asian Supermodels

I have re-added the following info:

Supermodels are becoming more popular in countries with bolstered economies. Africa has seen an influx of "home grown supermodels" which includes Kiara Kabukuru from Uganda, Kaone Kario from South Africa, Yasmin Warsame & Kadra Ahmed Omar from Somalia, Liya Kebede from Ethiopia, Ajuma Nasenyana from Kenya, Venantia Otto from Namibia, Agbani Darego, Nnnena, Oluchi Onweagba, Dolapo Olorunisola & Caroline Chikezie from Nigeria.

References: http://www.asiaarts.ucla.edu/article.asp?parentid=33733

  • You really water down the charge of racism by jumping to such conclusions and spouting them off half-cocked. People who do that damage the anti-racism movement by casually throwing around that charge. The reason is in the edit summary found here with the revert. You have created a bunch of articles that are not sourced, and will be speedily deleted not because of racism, but because you provide no sources backing up your claims that these are supermodels, and notable supermodels at that. You haven't formatted any of the articles to Wikipedia standards. Look at some biography articles and you can see how they are done. Then, you also didn't format this information to look like it even belonged in this article. There are no sources or citations - why are we to believe you? All of these reasons are why I reverted your addition. --David Shankbone 17:32, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I removed Cathee Dahmen from Supermodels of the 1940's Cathee Dahmen worked in the late 1960.s Cathee Dahmen, ModlyInLove 10:48, 16 May 2007 (UTC)ModlyinLove

Why, then, is she still listed? Heatherfire 00:38, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History

I added History and made sections: first supermodel, supermodel era and decline of supermodel popularity for easy browsing. (Number1spygirl 15:32, 21 July 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Name inclusion

This article has an enormous name list of "supermodels". I suggest we should only include names that are noteworthy. e.g. Lisa Fonssagrives, the world's first supermodel. (Number1spygirl 12:18, 2 September 2007 (UTC)).

[edit] Supermodel's vs Celebrity

I feel that many of the names listed are merely celebrities and fame is not a sole indicator of a supermodel. It is indeed a part of it; supermodels are well known. However, I feel the quality of the work the model is doing should be considered before she is included on this list. A supermodel should be doing high profile work, for high profile designers as well as possibly a variety of other enterprises. I do not think that Victoria's secret models should really count as supermodels if that is all they are noted for, as this is clearly not high fashion and high street labels, whether they do a runway show or not, should not really be included as employing "supermodels". Feel free to contest this point but if you look at the work completed by Kate Moss, and compare it to, say, Tyra Banks, it is clear who the more successful model is, and who is a celebrity. Bingosaurus 04:23, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

But it should also be noted that doing many high fashion works does not also qualify someone as supermodel. An example would be Daria Werbowy, Vlada Roslyakova, etc. The references have stated that attaining celebrity status is an important factor of attaining the title "supermodel". (Number1spygirl 06:03, 28 September 2007 (UTC))

I agree, however the first sentence of the article is "A supermodel is a highly-paid elite fashion model who usually has a worldwide reputation and often a background in haute couture and commercial modeling." My point is that a supermodel should be primarily as a model and should be highly paid in this particular enterprise, as opposed to other projects. For example, most would identify Kate Moss or Giselle Bundchen as a model, but not Tyra Banks.Bingosaurus 02:26, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Tyra Banks was primarily a model pre-talk show days. Where do you think the Campbell-Banks feud comes from? Number1spygirl 12:10, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
The question is whether her body of work rose to the level of Supermodel. Becoming famous is an important part of being a Supermodel, but all the true Supermodels became famous because of their work as models, not the other way around. Banks is a tricky example. I personally don't consider her a Supermodel, but at least understand where the argument could be made because she does have some high fashion and editorial experince. A better example of the point would probably be somebody like Heidi Klum, who is widely known for her celebrity, and used to be a model of sorts (underwear and swimsuits mostly), but clearly isn't a Supermodel.Bogan444 (talk) 22:55, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Supermodels of the new millennium & The increase of Brazilian Models

Sections removed. These are sections that discuss about "looks of the moment" not about evolution of the word supermodel. Just because someone has that "look" doesn't make them a supermodel. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information.Number1spygirl 00:05, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] So can an unattractive person sue a modeling agency for not hiring them?

Can an unattractive person sue a modeling agency for not hiring them because they are unattractive? How can modeling agencies discriminate with respect to facial bone structure and yet they cannot discriminate with respect to skin color? Both skin color and facial bone structure are two traits that people are born with. Whenever a fashion designer says he wants this beautiful person to wear his clothing but not this unattractive person he is discriminating because he thinks that if the unattractive person models the clothing that no one will like his fashion design. How can he do this without being sued? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.69.78.148 (talk) 13:03, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

To answer that, go back to Aristotle who answered "Why do men pursue pretty women?" with "It's a question a blind man can certainly ask."

Simple Darwinism too. Those who use less attractive models do worse than those who don't, so anyone who wants to survive is pretty much forced to use attractive models. The ugly can sue all they want, but anyone with common sense won't take the case.

It's also worth considering the possibility of a fugly woman excelling at sport. You don't really think anyone would bother to show up at the games, right? Ugly people can do what they want, but they can't force people to watch them, and advertising is all about getting people to watch. Case closed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.68.70.186 (talk) 23:26, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Male Supermodels

Can any male model be said to have "worldwide recognition"? Every female supermodel in the article is a household name. The Male Supermodels section, as currently written, add nothing to this article. I'm recommending we delete it. Thoughts? Darkspots (talk) 20:39, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "First Supermodel"?

How can Lisa Fonssagrives be the "first supermodel" when the term did not even exist back then? I don't think we can. For the same reason we cannot label Achilles or Genghis Khan "war criminals", because the term refers to the modern era. We cannot label an individual investigator from the 17th century as a "private eye" because the term refers to a profession specifically of the 20th century and beyond. And so on. -The Gnome (talk) 09:42, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

She's probably labeled the first supermodel just as Doug Williams and Julie Olson are labeled the first supercouple (not just first soap opera supercouple), even though the term did not exist until Luke Spencer and Laura Webber. Doug and Julie most likely get that title because of how they were the first soap opera couple to grace the cover of TIME magazine and how there was so much mania surrounding them. Basically, a supercouple without the title of being called that then. Flyer22 (talk) 00:51, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Supermodel"

Although Janice Dickinson claims to have "invented" the term in 1979, American Vogue used the term "supermodel" on the cover page to describe Margaux Hemingway on the September 1, 1975 edition. This can be seen clearly on the cover I found at eBay.Co.UK and in the Vogue archives.

Just giving a litle more evidence that Dickinson did not coin the term - at least not in 1979, anyway. ExRat (talk) 03:25, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

This would be good to incorporate into the section of the term's origin in this article, of course. Thanks for the information, ExRat. Flyer22 (talk) 04:43, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Supermodel (mathematics)

"Supermodel" is a term used by mathematicians and the like when modeling a particular problem, meaning a model that is composed of several models to solve a particular problem.

Looks like this deserves a whole other page. 67.5.147.111 (talk) 13:03, 25 May 2008 (UTC)