Talk:Sukhoi PAK FA

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[edit] India's Role

Could someone people confirm if the PAK FA is being jointly developed by India? if it is to be commissioned into the russian air force by 2008/09 will it be part of the IAF in the same time frame also? If yes, this means that india will now have the option to secure say 375 Gen 4.5 Mutlirole Fighters (150 Su 30 MKI's, 126 MRCA (Rafale, Gripen, Eurofighter, F/A-18 or Mig-35)), Gen 4.5 Air Superiority HAL Tejas, Gen 5 MCA's and Gen 5 PAK FA's. Its a rapid modernization, no? sachinnichani

It is NOT being jointly developed by India. India has absolutely nothing to do with the PAK-FA despite a few not-very-credible sources claiming it wanted to participate in the project. If an export version of the PAK-FA is ever sold to India, it will likely have some Indian components much like t

he SU-30MKI but that is the extent of any Indian involvment with the PAK-FA. Edrigu 02:16, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

There is some talk to create a joint project of a lighter frontlinne fighter, in the lines of F-16 and MiG-29, and there were some reports that such agreements were actually signed, but the result of is is yet to be seen. These rumors also speculate that MiG will be tasked with development on the Russian side. --Khathi 13:36, 22 August 2007 (UTC)


Some users have recently edited the article by addiing frankly a completely irrelevant piece. PLEASE REMEBER THAT THIS IS NOT A MAGAZINE but an encyclopedic article. An entire news piece added as a section had completely discredited the article's encyclopedic nature.

Plus, please keep some facts in mind before any such edits are added to this article:

  • PAK FA project is nearly complete. The first plane will fly in 2008.
  • It will enter service between 2012 and 2015 with Russian Air Force
  • India and Russia have only just signed a deal to develop a new 5th gen. figther
  • Both country will have 50/50 partnership on this new deal. the PAK FA project has been developed entirely by Russia.
  • Take the F-22 and F-35 (US) fighter jets for example. Both aircrafts are 5th gen, but one of them was built with international partnership.
  • Common sense, logic and hard facts thus indicate that the Russo-Indian project will be a completely new aircraft project with new designation
  • Plus, the last edits have drawn a very detailed picture of the Indian air force's future requirements, etc. Why on earth is that relevant to an aircraft specific article is beyond me! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ash sul (talk • contribs) 11:47, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

PLEASE READ ALL HARD DATA and consider the logic before adding any speculations to the PAK FA article. Please remember, this is an encyclopedic site and NOT a news or magazine site. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ash sul (talk • contribs) 07:54, October 20, 2007

Thanks -- 11:44, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

  • Hey chill. All I know is what someone else added as a reference, which is this article from the Times of India. That author seems to be under the impression that the Indian aircraft will not be a "completely new aircraft" but some form of the Sukhoi PAK FA. He states " IAF wants the FGFA, which is being called T-50 by the Sukhoi Design Bureau" and "Russian officials, however, have put the overall development cost of the Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA project in the region of $10 billion." Tabercil 03:19, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] PAK-FA's Role

I'm editing the part that references to the F-35. Without further official information, is pure speculation at this partand besides, as many users have indicated below, a fighter with the intended characteristics of the PAK-FA would be more in a F-22 class. Axel Vant 5:48, 25 July 2006 (EST)

Although there are articles on the internet that claim the PAK-FA to be in the same class as the JSF, those reports are all outdated. It is now known that the PAK-FA will be a large-sized twin-engined aircraft, slightly smaller than a Su-27, which makes it a direct equivalent to the F-22. There are also reports that Russia is developing a second, smaller, 5th generation aircraft, one in the class of the JSF (possibly in cooperation with India), but there is no information about it yet. Edrigu 00:48, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I found today some evidence that there is a second 5th-gen plane in development by MIG. This information was given by the Russian Airforce (VVS) commander Vladimir Mikhailov to RIA news agency. He said that the development of the "medium" fighter [PAK FA, I am assuming] is going according to plan and is fully funded. He also said that there is a parallel development of the light fighter done exclusively by MIG. I added the link to the article (it's in Russian) to the PAK FA article. Profhobby 20:36, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

The PAK-FA is a fighter / air-supremacy. Russian's equivalent to the F-22 was the MFI project, which was dropped, because of a lack of funding. The PAK-FA is being designed as a light fighter aircraft, which is in direct competition to the f-35. It's size will be between a su-27 and a mig-29. [[1]] Starcraftmazter 10:35, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


The problem in using these classifications to compare the PAK-FA with the F-22 or F-35 is that Russia and the US do not necessarily designate their fighter jets the same way, so what the US terms a "tactical fighter" might be called something else by Russia. The PAK-FA was never refered to as a light fighter (Russia had another project for that called the LFI). Even the Mig-29 is too big to be called a light fighter, yet the PAK-FA will be bigger than the Mig-29. Given that the PAK-FA is a twin-engined fighter larger than a Mig-29, I think it is accurate to say it is a direct equivalent to the F-22, not the F-35. Edrigu 18:01, 17 March 2006 (UTC)


Well I don't entirely agree. Did you have a look at [[2]] this? Anyway, the thing about the F-22 is, it's not really clear what it's role is. It is getting produced in small ammounts, and appears to be a tactical fighter. The PAK-FA and JSF on the other hand are going to be frontline fighters, which will be produced in much larger numbers than the F-22. Personally, I think the F-22 is a plane for politics rather than actual useful military use. Starcraftmazter 03:29, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Speculation

I think it should be removed. Russia has a spare $50Bn in the budget and $181Billion forex, as well as some of the smartest scientists in the world....so what possible problems can they have developing this plane? Starcraftmazter 10:35, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, this article has way too much speculation. I think the article should only include information which has some basis, for example things that were revealed in interviews with Russian officials. And everything else can be left out, and added when more information is available. Edrigu 18:04, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I got rid of it. Starcraftmazter 03:29, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

"so what possible problems can they have developing this plane?" Simple, Russia lacks the indigenous capability to produce AESA T/R modules and its most prominent export aircraft rely heavily on European avionics. Also, Russia's aviation industry has been pretty stagnant due to a great period of inactivivty during the 1990s. While yes, the Su-47 and Mig 1.44 were built, these projects were merely glorified test beds with no real future. Overall, this left their industry with only one thing to do... and that was modify existing designs.

The other thing is a funding issue. While yes, funds have been earmarked, they are nowhere near the funds needed for such a project.

The fact we havent seen a prototype fly yet is testament to the slow development process they are experiencing. While America is producing 5th generation aircraft with 4th generation stealth tech, the Russians have been pretty behind in this area.Skrip00 02:42, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Your knowledge of the Russian aerospace industry is lacking. Phazotron has produced an AESA radar, so the T/R modules are obviously not a problem. Even China and India can make them, and they lag far behind Russia.
The PAK-FA project was only started in 2002, so the fact that a prototype hasn't flown yet is hardly surprising.
Russian export aircraft don't use European avionics. The Indian Su-30MKI came with a mix of western, Indian, and Russian avionics because India was able to get a better deal that way due to agreements they had with Israel and several other countries, not because Russia wasn't capable of providing good enough avionics. Edrigu 21:22, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
The very first fighter aircraft in the world with electronically steered beam nose radar was the MiG-31 in the early 1980s. So the russians know this high-tech. On the other hand, russian fly-by-wire systems reportedly run on several Intel 486DX33 CPU, or at least the Sukhoi-27's original analogue FbW system was replaced by such computers during late 1990's modernizations. Also, the russians use the american mil-spec 1553 databuses themselves in their new designs. So they copy a lot from america, the russians are well known for their almost religious adoration of american industry and tech might, a long tradition from tzarist times.
"First we study, then we imitate, after that we innovate"

[edit] Pictures: rather hard to believe

Russian mainstream fighters always had a focus on close range air combat with autocannon and hyper-agile small AA missiles. Even the big iron like Su-27 had to be highly agile. These images currently included show a clear-cut copycat of the F/A-22, which would not be very manouverable, they do not even have canard wings for dogfight! Thrust vectoring alone is not enough.

Traditional russian thinking dictates the PAK-FA will be something like the S-37 Berkut, a sky ballerina with awesome aerobatics. Big clumsy fighter airplanes, e.g. an F22-copycat, could only have a specialized role in the russian airforce, like become a MiG-31 successor. The true next-gen mainstream fighter will not look like that, as you cannot make an F-22 copycat in MiG-29 size and russians demand dirt strip operation for frontal aviation fighters, which is impossible with heavy fighters.

The article and the images are thus highly speculative! 195.70.32.136 15:46, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I was also very surprised not to see the canards in the pictures. Given that latest versions of both Mig-29 and Su-27 (as well as Mig 1.44 project) have canards, I would guess that the next plane would have them as well. Of course, no one knows for sure. I don't know what is the basis for these pictures. The original website does not explain it. I think we should remove them. Profhobby 20:36, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Removing them is fine by me. I think the pictures were drawn by some airforce enthusiast and have nothing to do with Russia. Let's wait until Russia releases pictures of their fighter which will probably be pretty soon. A lot of other speculation in the article that can be removed, like the entire exports section. The information can be added when it is actually known. Edrigu 23:24, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
I believe that is the fictional plane 'XFA-36' from the game Ace Combat 3 (It looks like it anyway). That should definitely be removed.Xfa 27 23:03, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Nope. This image was featured on the site of Saturn design bureau, the maker of PAK FA engines (the much suffered AL-41F, namely), and it is as official as it gets. It's highly controversial indeed, and at best shows an intermediate configuration, but we certainly won't get anything better, given that the plane is still completely classified. Maybe they'll put a plywood mockup the next MAKS, if the stars would be right. ;) --Khathi 13:29, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
At least they have certain official backing, while other don't have even that. --Khathi 13:29, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
First, it's not F/A-22 anymore. ;) And second -- given that supercruise is one of the requirements -- I'm definitely not surprized that canards had to go (if they did, really). Canards increase agility, but introduce pretty much of a drag, which is a no-no for sustained ~1.5M flight without afterburners. BTW, dirt strip operation is really the matter of engineering, rather than weight. All Russian stratolifters (including humongous An-225) are required to operate from dirt stips, and 300 tons aren't 30, y'know. ;) --Khathi 13:29, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] first flight this year

Although this deadline should be taken with a grain of salt, I would expect that some fresh information and even pictures about the project should be coming out really soon. Has anyone been hearing anything new yet? --Skyler Streng 01:01, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Hrm never mind, I'm hearing that the maiden flight date has been pushed back to 2009, what a bummer. --Skyler Streng 08:30, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Its first official flight won't really be its first flight. For all we know it has flown already. Edrigu 16:06, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Blueprints were delivered to production plant in the beginning of August. If there won't be any problems, I believe we might expect the rollout of the prototype by the end of the year. --Khathi 13:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suspect

I'm not sure the v wing proposed by the pak fa could handle the g loads of dogfighting the JSF. Secondly given the lack of quality control and the high aerodynamic stresses associated with v wings could be a dangerous combination. Lastly the geometry of the aircraft doesn't strike me as very stealthy though they may have been able to replecate the RAM of the f117 shotdown over kosovo. The plasma sheath may be good at defeating radar but the it would be easy to track the ionization path, infared emmissions, and magnetic emmissions generated by the plasma sheath. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Androm (talk • contribs) 21:29, 3 May 2007 (UTC). The Russians already have produced aircraft with RAM coating. They did so long before the F-117 was shot down over Kosovo. They were the first country to put large fighter aircraft on the production line with sub-1 square meter RCS's. As for the V wing ... the Su-47's G loading is rated as higher then the F-35 and unlike the F-35 the Su-47 is ready for the production line. Onto plasma stealth ... show me some hard scientific facts that show that you can detect a system like this at ranges equivalent to radar vs. a non-stealth aircraft. Modern Russian radars can detect fighter sized objects at well past 200km and their infra red systems can detect targets at around 40km assuming line of sight. This is a vast gulf so unless this ionisation path you speak of has some property which is detectable by something akin to a radio wave it is HIGHLY unlikely that plasma stealth is as easily detectable as you claim.

[edit] Development Cost

It always amazes me to find out that the Russians only need more money to have the kind of weapons US have. They recognized they need a stealth fighter back in the late 80s, about the same as the US.

I'd like to know how much the Russians need to spend to have a 5th generation fighter. Rad vsovereign 10:38, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I've heard numbers in the vicinity of $5-10 bn. Not included is the sunk cost of research and prototyping done by Sukhoi and MiG in 90's on their own money, and production cost as well. --Khathi 13:58, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comparability with F-22 and F-35

This plane is the Russian equivalent to the F-22. What's all this comparison with the F-35? The PAK FA will kill the F-35. They're not in the same league! If russia develops a VTOL fighter then that can be compared to the F-35!

Also the plane will eventually be called the Sukhoi Su-50. T-50 is the codename during development. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Noorkhanuk85 (talk • contribs) 13:04, August 21, 2007 (UTC).

"The PAK FA will kill the F-35" Oh yeah. The one has not even left the drawing board, the other is still preproduction with several classified details. I just love these well founded pro-russian pukes in military articles.--Amanitin 15:15, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Development of Su-47?

If pictures are correct, then it is development of Su-27/30 and not Su-47. Su-47 has forward-swept wing and Pakfa_india34.jpg shows conventional swept wing or maybe even delta wing.

--

Tokul 07:32, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

The matter of wing sweep doesn't truly determine the design heritage. While PAK FA as it is seems to be a delta, S-37 might serve as a platform for development of avionics or simply a composite wing testbed -- two completely different wings might well be built by the same technology. --Khathi 13:59, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
it is only a composite wing testbed, the rest of the plane is the same as Su27. 218.186.8.10 (talk) 22:12, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Comparable aircraft - Eurofighter

Eurofighter is not fifth generation aircraft. EF is maximum 4+ generation --Matrek 08:17, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Jet fighter "generations" are marketing, while we don't even have a flying PAK-FA yet its a bit early to say what is comparable to it trash80 (talk) 19:29, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sukhoi Su-50

Is there a source for "Su-50" being the official designation for the PAK FA? If it's not an official companny or Russian AF designation, it should be removed. - BillCJ (talk) 05:43, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Forget it. Fighters are (almost) always issued odd numbers in official Air Force designations. Even numbers are for bombers and ground attack planes -- with some exceptions like Tu-95 (which is factory designation that became official) and Su-25 (same story, IIRC). T-50 is Sukhoi's internal design name, because its wing is a delta, and official designation most probably would be Su-41, as Su-39 seems to be already taken. --77.35.19.137 (talk) 16:44, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Keep in mind it's entirely possible for them to re-use designations, like they did for the new Su-27BM by using "Su-35" again. The Su-37 was a one off variant and I dont know if Su-39 was ever made official. Then again, sukhoi doesnt exactly follow the naming system faithfully, so it's pretty much impossible for us to predict it's name at this point. --24.119.105.32 (talk) 03:44, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sukhoi Su-50 Introduction

Interesting information from an e-mail I recieved:

DATE: December 17, 2007

     PUBLICATION/PAGE: Chosun Ilbo / P. 20

     TITLE: Russian Su-50 will outrun F-22

     The Deputy Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Federation Air Force,
     Gen. Aleksandr Zelin, on December 15 said at a press conference held
     with the Ria Novosti, "Russia's Sukhoi Su-50 will be the 5th
     generation fighter that will exceed the performance of the F-22
     Raptor. We have completed the design for the fifth-generation fighter
     and passed it to the production plant." Gen. Aleksandr Zelin also
     announced that Russia plans to launch the fighter starting in 2010
     following test flights in early 2009. The Russian fifth-generation
     fighter program started with the co-production agreement between the
     governments of India and Russia last October. Sukhoi and India's
     Hundustan Aeronautics Ltd. are jointly developing the Su-50 to
     manufacture it in the Komsomolsk-on-Amu region.



     The Su-50 features supersonic cruise capability without additional
     engine propulsion and a low radar signature called stealth. It is
     designed to fly at a maximum Mach 2.5 at Mach 1.8 at supersonic
     cruise, outpacing the F-22 Raptor's maximum speed and cruising speed
     of Mach 2.42 and 1.72, respectively. Unlike the F-22, which uses
     stealth paint, the Su-50 introduces low-temperature plasma laser
     technology to absorb radar waves. Similar to the F-22 Raptor, the
     Su-50 also integrates weapons and fuel systems internally. Both the
     Su-50 and the F-22 have very low observable stealth capability that
     differentiates them from 4th generation fighters including the F-15
     and the Su-35.

Link to photo: http://www.npo-saturn.ru/!new/photoshow.php?slang=0&id=29

Karlbatig (talk) 19:11, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

This is not a photo. It's an artist's impression based on a leaked early drafts. Similar pics were already deleted from here. As for aircraft's designation, I've already written that fighters are assigned ODD numbers per tradition. "Su-50" is just a confusion between official service designation (that would be Su-41, most probably) and its design number T-50. To complicate things further, the aircraft is much better known under the design theme description -- that is, PAK FA, or "И-21" for Istrebitel'-21 or Fighter-21, as it's a 21'th jet fighter design (I believe) that is officially approved for production. --Khathi (talk) 16:35, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
the plasma stealth technology is not proven technology. there has yet to been any successful demostration that it could maintain the field when flying at high speed, atm you need to be flying at the speed of a bus for it to work effectively. it is largely still speculation and largely dismissed after the mig 1.42 project, i still expect conventional stealth technology to be employed by Sukhoi. 218.186.8.10 (talk) 22:19, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Rumors of project cancelation (April 2008)

Hi. As you may have seen in the past few edits, there have been some speculations that the Russians have canceled the PAK FA project. Here's an article I found about the subject:

Russia's next-generation fighter project cancelled
MOSCOW, April 12 (RIA Novosti) - Russian air force commander-in-chief Aleksandr Zelin has announced the cancellation of the $20-billion PAK-FA program after 20 years of escalating costs, technological glitches and redesigns failed to produce a single prototype aircraft.
The PAK-FA, once billed as Russia's next-generation fighter, had consumed $13.9-billion. The estimated cost of each aircraft had soared to $87.2-million from an original target of $30-million.
"It's had a long and troubled history," said Alexei Arbatov, a senior Duma official who heads the lower house committee for defense.
The PAK-FA, a new generation fighter aircraft concept, was designed to be comparable to both the American F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II and has been overtaken by the need to strengthen Russia's strategic nuclear forces.
Acknowledging that the PAK-FA no longer fit into the requirements of Russia, the Air Force said it would rather spend the money on an overhaul of its aviation system. If approved by the Federal Assembly, the funds would be directed instead to buy over 400 additional SU-34, SU-35 and other aircraft and to upgrade and modernize 1,400 aircraft already in service. Surface-to-air missiles also would be a priority.
"It's about having an effective deterrent force," said Air Force Colonel General Alexander Zelin. "It's a big decision. We know it's a big decision, but it's the right decision."
The end of the PAK-FA also reflects an acknowledgement by the Ministry of Defence that it simply cannot afford all the programs it wants. The move underscores the fact that the Ministry of Defence must begin economizing as the cost of new weapon systems increase and demands on military spending grow, industry analysts said.
The Air Force would have spent $20-billion on the PAK-FA program through 2012 without getting aircraft significantly more capable than the upgraded SU-35 it already plans to buy, Air Force officials said.
Some officials of the State Duma reacted angrily to the cancellation.
"I am outraged by the decision to terminate the PAK-FA program given that the Air Force has long argued that it is a critical weapons system that plays a pivotal role in our defence," said State Duma deputy Vladimir Medinsky. "What has changed? And how does the military plan to make up for the lost capabilities?"
Alexei Arbatov, Deputy Chairman of the Defence Committee of the State Duma, said the decision "reflects the difficulty that the services are facing with the cost of modernization requirements now coming to the fore."
The cancellation was a blow to the PAK-FA's prime contractors, Sukhoi and NPO Saturn.
A senior Duma official said the Ministry of Defense expects to have to pay a $450-million to $680-million termination fee to Sukhoi and NPO Saturn.
The program's elimination, however, could benefit the two companies. The Air Force now plans to pour more money into the SU-34 and SU-35, and ramp up the upgrade of aircraft already in service which would keep both companies busy for the foreseeable future.

I think, since this article was written in early April, that it is an April Fools joke (if the Russians observe April Fools Day at all). What do you guys think? --Henrickson User talk | Contribs 00:44, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Can you confirm that this is an actual "RIA Novosti" press release? I seriously doubt that they would so bluntly announce a cancellation such as this. Bogdan що? 01:56, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I doubt if it is true. If the program was cancelled, how come they signed a deal with brazil for participation in PAK FA program? I think this information ( or misinformation ) should not be added until it is confirmed. At present, perhaps it cannot even qualify as a speculation.necromancer (talk) 14:13, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Saturn Image?

You might recognize this image (http://defesabr.com/FAB/T-50_03.jpg), the "official" image of the PAK FA as released by the Saturn Design Bureau. I know it's controversial, but considering how much attention it's received and since it came from a credible source, it's the closest thing we have to any definite image. Of course, it could turn out untrue, but do you think it deserves at least some mention in this article? We already have at least two possible configurations in the article anyway... --24.119.105.32 (talk) 03:51, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The engine

I am a layman in aeronautic engineering, but I would like to understand one thing that seems contradictory to me: In the same article, the aeroplane is said to be able to supercruise. Later, the engine is defined as using an afterburner. Are not the two mutually exclusive? Besides, the article on the AL-41F specifically says it is designed to supercruise. I know the specifications come from warfare.ru, but, if my assumption is correct, either that site or the article on the engine is wrong. Besides, I think the engine used in the Su-35BM should get its own article, even if it is a derivative of an earlier model. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.61.16.64 (talk) 02:09, 5 June 2008 (UTC)