Talk:Star of Bethlehem

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Good article Star of Bethlehem has been listed as one of the Philosophy and religion good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
Christianity
Christianity Portal
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Christianity, an attempt to build a comprehensive guide to Christianity on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Wikipedia visit the welcome page to become familiar with the guidelines.
Good article GA This article has been rated as GA-class on the quality scale.
High This article has been rated as High-importance on the importance scale.
Assessment comments
This article is part of the Astrology WikiProject, an attempt to improve and organize the astrological content on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
Good article GA This article has been rated as GA-Class on the quality scale.
??? This article has not yet been assigned a rating on the importance scale.

Contents

[edit] Triple conjunction, star map

It seems odd that there is no mention of the TRIPLE conjunction between Jupiter and Saturn in 7 BC - 6 BC, which was an important part of Kepler's speculations on the subject... AnonMoos 16:28, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

The star map does not indicate what time it is for. It certainly is not for the birth of Jesus since there is no agreement for what year it happened let alone the time of year. It is also violates NPOV since there are many who think Jesus did not exist at all. (I suspect he did, but what I suspect should not be put in as fact into Wikipedia.) MichaelSH 13:00, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NOTICE OF POSSIBLE COPYRIGHT VIOLATIONS

Member USER:Kauffner (hello) is referencing and summarizing copyrighted works in the main article. IT IS A COPYRIGHT VIOLATION TO DISCLOSE THE 'HEART AND SOUL' OF AN AUTHOR'S PUBLISHED WORK (one example is your use of Molnar's book). THESE ITEMS CAN BE MENTIONED IN THE REFERENCE OR EXTERNAL LINKS SECTION, however, citing the complete abbreviated substance of a published work is a copyright violation that is subject to a lawsuit (absent the author's permission). Giving away the results of an author's research and published works is a violation of Wikipedia policy and a violation of the Copyright Laws.

  • Otherwise you have done a really good job in revamping the main article. (Please see 'Other Notes' below regarding ancient astrology). John Charles Webb 21:12, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Um, no, 'giving away the results of an author's research' is certainly not a copyright violation. Uncredited copying of the author's way of expressing those results would be, but referenced summary is normal academic and wikipedia practice. Cheers, Sam Clark 14:19, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other notes

This text (Quote) "Note that there is no suggestion in the Gospels that Jesus was born on the day the star first appeared and thus no way to use astronomical phenomenon to determine a specific day of birth." (end quote) is POV (point-of-view) and has been neutralized according to Wikipedia editorial policy. John Charles Webb 19:31, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Regarding astrology - Astronomy is the observation of celestial phenomenon and ancient astrology is the interpretation of observed astronomical phenomenon. Any star (or celestial event) representing a birth is within the realm of ancient astrology. This astronomical/astrological observation is reinforced by the Magi, or wise men's role as astronomer/astrologers. During the time of the birth of Christ astronomy and astrology were, in fact, the same 'science'. Any scholarly investigation of The Star of Bethlehem is incomplete without including an astrological analysis [[1]] based upon the ancient astrological model (geometric depiction of the solar system) of that time period. The contemporary scientific posture regarding astrology is inconsequential when applied to an event that took place over 2000 years ago. An additionally relevant note is that whoever built The Great Pyramid (2800 BC) possessed a knowledge of the complete solar system and incorporated that information in many of the ratios and dimensions of the pyramid. [[2]] I mention The Great Pyramid information because it will, perhaps, put a stop to thinking that all of the people from the time-frame in question (2000 BC) were 'primitive' and could not tell the difference between a planet and a star. See, [[3]] There is a significant body of work linking the Christ and The Great Pyramid [[4]]John Charles Webb 20:58, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good article nomination

Hi. I don’t think that this is a good article under the criteria. Good points are that it’s written from a NPOV and well-illustrated. But it has two major problems:

1.It’s not well-written. For instance: ‘Herod, who had learned earlier from the magi when star first appeared, kills all male children in Bethlehem age 2 and under’. There are a number of other typos and odd or incorrect forms of expression. In particular, there’s a tendency to miss out articles (‘a’, ‘the’) and to confuse past and present tenses.

2.It lacks inline citations in the Lead and ‘Biblical narrative’ sections. For instance, ‘The Gospel of Mark, considered the oldest and most historical of the four gospels under the doctrine of Markan priority’ needs a citation.

On these grounds, I’m going to fail it. But it’s close: a decent copyedit and making sure that it’s all verified and it’ll be there. Please feel free to get in touch if you’d like help with copyediting. Cheers, Sam Clark 14:24, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I have taken care of all the points made in the review and renominate the article as "good article."Kauffner 12:59, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Failed GA

I've failed this article primarily because it doesn't fulfill requirement 3, that a good article should be broad in its coverage, addressing all major aspects of the topic. Some of the questions that the article doesn't deal with include:

1. What do modern Biblical scholars say about the fact that the Star of Bethlehem appears in only one of the gospels? Do they have an explanation for this?
2. Are there any other contemporary accounts of a strange star in the heavens?

3. Is it possible that there wasn't such a star?

Also, the article seems to have a mix of citation styles. You'll want to convert the few embedded links into footnotes.

Feel free to resubmit when these issues have been dealt with. MLilburne 13:16, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I've fixed the issue with the references and added a "textual analysis" subsection to address points 1 and 3. (See footnote #23 as well.) I wonder how far along this path we should go. The reasons to believe in the star are based on Christian theology and prophecy rather than eyewitness accounts. If you're writing an article about Zeus, you don't need to include a section entitled, "Did Zeus really exist?"
IMO, point 2 was already adequately addressed. Both Babylonian and Chinese records are referred to.Kauffner 16:41, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
It would be one thing if you were writing an article about a myth, as in the article about Zeus. But the way that this article is written suggests that it is about an actual astronomical event, in which case eyewitness accounts should be referred to, and scientific standards of proof should be adhered to. I hadn't spotted the reference to the Chinese records on first reading as they are hidden very close to the bottom of that paragraph, as if they are not particularly important. It strikes me that is one of the few observations that sounds more convincing, so you might want to spend a little more time discussing it.
Your textual analysis section seems to deal more with Jesus' birth than with the issue of the star. A short article that offers the sort of context I was thinking of can be found here. You may also want to look at the original article by Martin Gardner in the "Skeptical Inquirer".
I will let another GA reviewer consider the article this time, but it's my opinion that it's still not up to the standard. MLilburne 10:56, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I added some details concerning the Chinese astrology observations and expanded the lead. The Stevens article is mainly an arguement for the Jesus as myth concept and didn't strike me as relevant. He connects the magi to Persian myth, mostly because magi is a word of Persian origin. But in the Gospels, the word is a general term that means something like "wise men," "psychics," "magicians," "astrologers," or "dream interpreters." It is a usage derived from the Book of Daniel and is thus several degrees removed magi in the original sense of a Persian or Median priestly caste.Kauffner 17:23, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
If some people feel that the Star of Bethlehem is also a myth, then I do feel that is relevant to the article, and needs to be dealt with. MLilburne 17:35, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
The Stevens article isn't really about the Star of Bethlehem, but only uses the subject as a jumping off point to discuss Persian mythology. I suppose the bottom line here is you just don't like the article for whatever reason and that's appearently all there is to it.Kauffner 19:41, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
The bottom line is that I have tried, in good faith, to get across why I believe that the article is incomplete as it currently stands. Perhaps I haven't done a very good job of doing so. If that is the case, I apologise. I will try to put aside some time to work on it myself over the Christmas break, rather than asking you to add in any more material yourself. MLilburne 08:21, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Personally I think the article is OK for GA.....

I think that the star of Betlehem is such a fundamtental Christian myth, that it shouldn't need to be scrutinized from a Chinese viewpoint. Of course, this is only my POV, but I wanted to express it. Feel free to reply. / Fred-Chess 17:43, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not concerned about the Chinese viewpoint per se. I'm only concerned about the scientific viewpoint and whether there is reliable evidence for the star's existence. If there are people (as there are) who doubt that the Star of Bethlehem was a real astronomical phenomenon, then the article ought to acknowledge that. But I've said my piece. MLilburne 17:50, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Passed GA

This article is very well written and broad in context in that it covers all the theories of the appearances of a star over Bethlehem for the possible range of dates of Jesus' birth. The illustrations are excellent and it is carefully NPOV. BMoos 17:13, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

>>> - Comment: (12/30/06) The opening lines of the article are (somewhat) POV: (quote) The Star of Bethlehem, also called the Christmas Star or the Jesus Star, was an object in the sky which revealed the birth of Jesus to the magi and later led them to a house (not a manger)[1] where they found the child Jesus and his family, according to the nativity narratives in the New Testament.[2] The magi were men "from the east" who were inspired by the star to travel to Jerusalem in search of a newly-born king of the Jews.... (end quote).

- I Suggest replacing "was an object in the sky" with "a celestial event". It is important to note that "The Star" was not witnessed (no record) by anybody other than the Magi. The phenomenon may have been an "object in the sky", however, planetary conjunctions (as mentioned in the body of the main article) are not an "object" (aster) but an assembly (asterism) of objects. The term "a celestial event" is NPOV.

- The child (according to Matthew) was found with his mother. There is no mention, in the gospel, of the child being found with his (quote) 'family' as stated in the main article. Quote from Matthew: "And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother", (End quote).

- The text in the main article "(not a manger)" is accurate but inconsequential because the Magi were not on the scene at Christ's birth (manger/stable?) but at some later time when Christ was a "young child".

These (above) slight discrepancies may go unnoticed by the average reader, however, to a person who has studied this matter, they (the discrepancies) appear as errors and are POV unsupported by the Gospel of Matthew. They wave a small 'red flag' (perhaps) reqarding the reliability and accuracy of the rest of the main article. John Charles Webb 21:56, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Relisted as GA candidate

I am relisting this as a GA candidate per the discussion here. MLilburne 22:49, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Passed GA

An excellent article that is a credit to Wikipedia. Superbly referenced. Will need more work pre-FA if that is the intention, but currently this strolls past WIAGA. Moreschi 19:45, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Star of Bethlehem

I'm surprised to see no reference of Frederick A. Larson recent video of his lecture on Star of Bethlehem. If you are interested in this subject, I suggest seeking out this video. Very detailed, but there are others.--Kjmoran 16:55, 25 June 2007 (UTC)


As for references, there will be a new article on the Star in the December 2007 issue of Sky & Telescope which may have some useful information. I don't think it has hit bookstores yet, but it would be good to keep an eye out for any new info. (Also note, I fixed a small typo on the comment above, which was a misspelling of Bethlehem.)--Gilgamesh 42 03:33, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Could the Star have been 4 Vesta?

Re "Another Star of Bethlehem candidate is Uranus, which was visible at various times. However, it probably moved too slowly to be recognized as a planet",

I am curious as to what would rule out the brightest asteroid, 4 Vesta, as the Star.

Vesta is of similar magnitude to Uranus - just visible to the naked eye from a very dark sky when brightest. However, only every four or so years does it reach its brightest (and become theoretically visible before telescopes). If it did so in the years before Jesus' birth, stargazers seeing a previously invisible star might have revealed Jesus' birth.

I would like feedback on whether 4 Vesta is a possible candidate. I discussed it yesterday with some modern stargazers who doubted that Vesta would have been the Star.

luokehao

[edit] And then there's what actually happened, if you care to know

"Because the magi told Herod that they saw the star "at its rising",[28] the obvious conclusion is that of an astronomical object."

So obvious that people are still apparently arguing about it on the internet.

This is an incorrect assumption and should be corrected.

According to the Bible:

“After hearing the king, they went their way; and the star, which they had seen in the east, went on before them until it came and stood over the place where the Child was.” Matthew 2:9

This could not have been anything outside the earth’s atmosphere such as the astronomical events currently occupying the debate. If it were, those men would have continued walking west to the coast.

If you think this is crazy, look at the opening pages of Ezekiel and think about it. Thankfully some passages were too difficult to interpret and therefore could not be RE-interpreted during centuries of edits and translation.

[edit] An Astronomical Picture or Sign

On closer examination, this section appears to reflect the opinion of only one person, its major source is his own website, and the material was all added in July and August 2007 by an editor with the same name as this person. I can find no independent confirmation of this theory, the author appears to be completely non-notable, and the detail is highly speculative and represents a single, non-neutral point of view. It appears to be completely original research, and I am going to delete the entire section on this account. This article is already long and technical enough without this sort of thing. Rbreen (talk) 12:23, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Seal of Solomon

I have deleted a section under astrology that outlines a theory about the star as a conjunction showing the Star of Solomon. This was under the principle of no original research, since it appeared to be one person's theory and the only citation provided was a website operated by the person who seems to have come up with the idea, and the section was written, as far as I could see, by the same person. This section has now been restored, with a citation. However, the citation is from a popular astrology magazine, and features an article apparently written by the same person. This is not an acceptable citation under WP:SOURCES ("Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy.") and still appears to be nothing more than one person's original research, unsupported by any notable external citation. This is an important article, and includes facts and arguments supported by citations from scholarly published works. It doesn't help to include such poorly sourced material; I am deleting it again, until someone provides evidence that this is a view which has widespread support from notable, substantial sources. --Rbreen (talk) 21:32, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Star Chart points south!

What's the point of the star chart? Sure, it's historically and scientifically accurate, but it points south! Would the star of the east be in the south? 69.220.2.188 (talk) 05:20, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Stars rise in the east and set in the west, except for the North Star. So there is no such thing as a "star of the east." Kauffner (talk) 09:25, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Bible does not mention about "star of the east" and also about "star of Bethlehem." Neduvelilmathew (talk) 06:12, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Raymond Brown and "most modern scholars"

Raymond E. Brown argues: "no astronomical record exists of what is described in Matthew"

The astronomy records that survive from New Testament times are a pretty primitive. They're mostly just lists of which planets were in which constellation during a certain month. So a lack of astronomy records concerning the Star of Bethlehem should not be surprising. We have a whole subsection detailing the astronomy arguments that allows readers to come to their own conclusions. Astronomical object and historical fiction are not the only two possibilities anyway. Not only that, but Brown is a New Testament scholar rather than an astronomer.

Most modern scholars, however, argue that Luke was simply mistaken.

It's true that there was no literal census at the time Luke claims there was one. But to put this way sounds like we gave him a test and he failed. "Most modern scholars" -- no one took a survey, you know. Kauffner (talk) 08:03, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Simon Bar Kokhba and Other Notes

Bar Kokhba's tetradrachm. Obverse: the Temple facade with the rising star. Reverse: A lulav, the text reads: "Year one of the redemption of Israel"
Bar Kokhba's tetradrachm. Obverse: the Temple facade with the rising star. Reverse: A lulav, the text reads: "Year one of the redemption of Israel"

In reference to the Numbers prophecy, Simon Bar Kokhba was clearly viewed as a Jewish Messiah. The following coin was minted around the time of the Bar Kokhba revolt (132-135). It shows a star over the Temple of Jerusalem (destroyed A.D. 70 by the Romans). This demonstrates that the Numbers prophecy was viewed as referring to a 'Star' in the astronomical sense by Jews who lived under 100 years after the death of Jesus. It is clear from reading Josephus that before, during and after the time of Jesus that this prophecy was believed to refer to an "astronomical object".

MARK is believed to be the earliest Gospel. This seems to me to be correct. I think this is why Peter acquired such an important position in the early Church - his being the first written account of Jesus. It is not written in Mark that Peter is the Rock on which the Church shall be built, etc. MARK is believed to be written by someone who recorded Peter's sayings. It makes no reference to the Star prophecy, if I remember correctly (Also see See Q document). It seems to reference every other prophecy, however - this may be why it and the nativity are emphasised in Matthew/Luke. As regard the year of Jesus' birth - Ignore the Census for now, as an error by someone who clearly didn't know Jesus' Date of Birth (i.e. Luke) and was obviously only guessing his age. Herod is believed to have died 4 BC. Add two years for the massacre. That gives 6 BC approximately. That I believe is the earliest date possible for Jesus' Birth. It is stated that Joseph and family stayed in Egypt until Herod's death, then moved to Nazareth to avoid living under Herod the Great's son, Herod Archelaus who was Ethnarch of Samaria, Judea and Idumea, 4 BC to AD 6. This cancels out the Quirinius Census info. It would have to have taken place before 4 B.C. Quirinius was not legate of Syria (which then included Israel/Palestine region) until A.D. 6. So Luke is mistaken as as he clearly states it was Quirinius' Census (which occurred about AD 6). Jesus was crucified when Pontius Pilate was in charge (AD 26 - 36). From Luke 3.1 we know John the Baptist was alive A.D. 29 (15th year of Tiberius' reign). We know Jesus was crucified after John the Baptist was executed. Therefore, if Luke is correct here, Jesus was crucified between A.D. 29 and A.D. 36. Add 2 (or 3) years for 3 passovers, therefore crucified between A.D. 31 - 36. Jesus, therefore, had to be at least 36-37 years old when he died - but was probably older. There is a reference in John somewhere where the Jews accuse Jesus, who was "not yet fifty" of claiming to see Abraham. Luke and Matthew were probably written based on Mark (they share exact wording often). John is very different. Remember that Luke was not a disciple of Jesus - but John, the author of the Gospel of John, is believed to have been John the disciple of Jesus. Also it is not always easy to guess a person's age. But John's reference conflict's with Luke's, as John's seems to imply that Jesus was in his forties at the time mentioned during his ministry (A.D. 29 - 31). Given the facts it seems that Luke's nativity story is either at best full of errors or at worst invented. Therefore, if a Star really did appear, Luke's story is clearly not factual and needs to be largely ignored in determining the date of Jesus' Birth and the astronomical object's appearance. Luke is only useful in giving certain details of the nature of the prophecy.

Dneale52 (talk) 17:54, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Star of Bethlehem in the Bible.

1. In the Bible there is no such usage as A Star. A new star, or Star of Bethlehem. Note that King Herod, his Chief priests, and teachers of the law, none of them were able to see this star (or a nova, a planet, a comet or a conjunction).

In the Bible Gospel of Matthew Chapter 2: 1, clearly says that they saw His Star in the East. In this article it is not mentined that they saw His Star. His star is different from A star. Probably the writers are unaware that even today (twent-first century) almost all the people in a place in India, knows the name of His Star or Her Star. Some of them add the name of “His Star or Her Star” with their names. These wise men might have come from that area.

2. Magos is a greek word which by implication means a magician. (see Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible. No.3097). Jesus nor the disciples used Greek or Persian. So the Gospel of Matthew was written in Aramaic or Hebrew. In Hebrew the word used is Châkam, meaning to be wise in mind, word and Act. (see Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible. No.2449). The same word is used in the same gospel in verses 7:24 and 23:34 but the translation given there is “wise men” and not Magi or Magoi or Magos. This clearly means that the correct translation is wise men and not magi.

2. Bible tells that they came from the East. According to the first century historian Strabo (64 BC – 19 AD), Korami (Cape Comerin, now known as Kanyakumari) in South India was the eastern point of the then known world. So the wise men could have come from anywhere from Persia (modern Iraq) to Kanyakumari in South India.

Astronomy and astrology were not limited to Persia and Babylon. It was well advanced in almost all of the East in the first century.

They were from the East, they were wise men, there were more than three people including astrologers and their journey was described by first century historians including King Herod’s historian who met these wise men at Antioch, near Daphne. The wisemen returned to their country. Some of them later became followers of Jesus of Nazreth.Neduvelilmathew (talk) 05:58, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


[edit] King Herod advised the Magi?

The first paragraph of this article states that King Herod ADVISED the Magi that the King of the Jews was in a nearby town. As far as Herod was concerned, Herod himself WAS the king of the Jews. The scriptures state that Herod ASKED the Magi to return and inform him where they found the Messiah under the pretense that Herod would then go to worship the child Messiah. King Herod intended to murder the child, as is evidenced by his subsequent command to slaughter every male under two years old in that region. Premium310 (talk) 18:27, 4 June 2008 (UTC)premium310