Talk:St Matthew Passion (Bach)

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Parts of the current article seem rather opinionated, and I'm not sure why the Gibson movie needs to be mentioned (especially multiple times). As for no mention of the Ressurection, that may be for the simple reason that it was composed to fill a liturgical role as the Good Friday service -- Easter's not for another few days. Just as the Easter service wouldn't have random references to Pentecost, Good Friday would tend to confine its texts to the crucifixion, since that's what happened on that day.

I've rewritten it to remove the Gibson references; that material came from program notes written when the Gibson movie was current. The importance of the Crucifixion in Lutheran theology of the time is supported by contemporary writings, although perhaps that means it isn't a distinctive feature of this particular composition. —Wahoofive | Talk 20:27, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps inadvertently, the section "Background of the Passion" has been blanked by Wahoofive. Not in the reader's interest. Has this text been transferred to another article? Or just suppressed? --Wetman 15:38, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

That text was a duplication of the text in Passion#Musical settings of Gospel narratives and seemed unnecessarily detailed for this particular article. —Wahoofive | Talk 17:25, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Quite right. Could you work some brief reference with a wikilink into the text? For people like me, who need all the help they can get. --Wetman 22:31, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

There's already a link from the word "Passion" in the first sentence of "Structure of the work." Do you want more than that? —Wahoofive | Talk 01:31, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

According to the wiki there's no mention of the coming resurrection (see section "Interpolated texts") but that's not true — in Movement 14, Jesus recites "Wenn ich aber auferstehe.../But after I am risen...", in Movement 63a, the evangelist mentions "nach seiner Auferstehung/after his resurrection", and finally the Chorus quotes Jesus as having said "Ich will nach dreien Tagen wieder auferstehen/After three days I will rise again" in Movement 66b — so any discussion about it seems almost moot. It would probably be best to rewrite this part to read that the Passion doesn't end with the resurrection of Jesus like most Passion stories do if that's what the original author meant to say but since I'm neither theologian nor music historian I'm not sure about that. --Shirk 16:39, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps it would be simpler to say that the narrative concludes with the interment of Jesus, in keeping with liturgical readings on Good Friday. Moioci 05:41, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Contents 1 POV 2 History 3 Rewrite 4 Exact Instrumentation 5 Problem with editing this article 6 Requested move 6.1 Survey 6.2 Discussion 7 Why not above talk contributions in main entry? 8 Movie section is too early 9 Modern and period - language

[edit] POV

This article contains a lot of statements which do not represent a neutral point of view, are unencyclopedic or at least require citations. Some of the most obvious are noted below. -- MarkBuckles 07:46, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• "It is no accident that the chorus alternates between participating in the narrative (in the turba parts) and commenting on it as modern believers; there is an identification between the two."
• "Bach’s music is as deep as the text."
• "For Bach, following in the footsteps of Anselm of Canterbury, the crucifixion itself is the endpoint, the source of redemption. The emphasis is on the suffering of Jesus in the place of the sinners, and it is the resurrection which is secondary, only important to show God’s power and to give an example of what redemption from sin might consist of."
• "The “mourning” referred to in the opening movement is not mourning for the dead Jesus, but rather for our own sinfulness"
• "While these details are more of an effort to hear for modern audiences than they were for people in Bach’s time who heard recitative all the time, the effort is well worth it. Think of it as exceptionally dramatic reading, rather than music, and these details will be easier to hear."
• "some of Bach’s most beautiful writing ever is in these movements."
• "In addition to his excellent melodies and counterpoint, but could always find a way to match the details of his compositions with the texts."

Surely it would be fair to say in a NPOV kind of way, this is widely regarded as one of Bach's masterpieces. Moioci 05:41, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History

This section could be expanded, with more reference to the role this piece played in bringing the music of Bach into the mind of the general public. I believe this peice was one of three that was sent into space as the an advanced example of human culture, along with Beethovan's 5th and Rites Of Spring . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.30.141.4 (talk • contribs)

[edit] Rewrite

Hearing no response for a month, I've rewritten a lot of the article, removing all of the subjective statements referenced above. This article still needs a lot of work, particularly in the "compositional style" section, which really tells me nothing about the style of this piece. I'm out of town for a month and I don't have the resources with me right now to add much more right now, but it's a step in the right direction. -- MarkBuckles 05:28, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Mark! Great job on the rewrite! I'll start a "references" section now and would be glad if you could also add some secondary literature. Cheers! Matthias Röder 10:57, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Exact Instrumentation

Does anyone know the exact instrumentation of the Matthäuspassion? The article only mentions double choir and double orchestra. I recall seing the score once, and it jumped to my attention that it has double basso cotinuo also. Is there any evidence that the double choir has any relation to the cori spezzati of Giovanni Gabrielli? Is there any information about the exact ammount of instruments used for example in the violin section? --189.136.83.90 18:03, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Two orchestras each with 2 flutes, 2 oboes (in Coro I doubling oboe d'amore and oboe di caccia), two violins, viola, cello and bass -- probably also doubled by bassoon. Danielhathaway 02:28, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

When Bach performed this work the second time, he used organ for continuo in one orchestra and harpsichord in the other. Historians cannot agree whether this was an artistic choice or whether his second organ was just out for repairs. Double-choir works were regularly performed throughout the Baroque. Bach started each service at the Thomaskirche with a Latin double-choir motet (usually written by someone else), and his own motets are mostly double-choir. The tradition was a continuous one from Gabrieli's time to Bach's, but generally via German channels. Heinrich Schütz, for example, wrote a number of double-choir works after studying with Gabrieli in Venice.

There are a few more details that Daniel didn't provide. The flute players double on recorder, the second orch requires a viola da gamba, the first orchestra calls for recorders at one point (nowadays played by the flute players, but at the time possibly by two violinists). All four oboe players must double on oboe d'amore. —Wahoofive (talk) 05:15, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Oboes also double oboe da caccia. That's a lot of doubling fees if you have to hire union musicans. :) MarkBuckles (talk) 05:45, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Having just performed the work on Good Friday, I can assure you that the viola da gamba, oboe d'amore and oboe da caccia parts are all in the first orchestra.70.191.119.135 02:20, 18 April 2007 (UTC)Danielhathaway

[edit] Problem with editing this article

Whenever I try to edit this article, the diting window does not have all of the content in it. Does anyone else have the sam problem? Thanks! Matthias Röder 11:06, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

An obvious move, but you might want to consider whether it's St or St. or Saint. ProhibitOnions ^(T) 10:39, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why not above talk contributions in main entry?

All the information provided above under Exact Instrumentation should be added, (all can be wikified)? Shlishke (talk) 07:12, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Movie section is too early

I feel that the section about the Passion in movies is somewhat tangential. It's not really about the work that Bach wrote, just about its later exploitation, and like all these lists may appeal to some readers while others may find it close to trivia. (Yeah, I'm in the latter camp.) On the other hand, the section on recordings is much more central to an article about the work, because it is listing the most direct means of access to it for many people. I am in no doubt that it is more relevant and valuable information. I am not going to be so cruel as to suggest the film section should go but I do think the recordings should come before the films. What do you think? Nomorenonotnever (talk) 08:29, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Modern and period - language

As evidenced above I like the section on Notable Recordings! :) I also like it being split into modern and period. I just wondered, though, whether the descriptive language is correct - is it JUST the instruments which are different? I suspect that John Eliot Gardiner and Paul McCreesh, inter alia, might argue that it is more than which shape your bow is: that the whole performance, including the singing, direction, tempos, pitch, size of forces etc etc is ALL different, and that therefore to describe it as just being on old or new instruments is to oversimplify. I am not sure what better terminology might be used but I wondered what others thought. Finally, there doesn't seem to be an explanation on the page of what old-vs-new performances mean - I wonder whether there should be a link to other wp material which tells readers, or a short introduction to the recording section which explains the split, or both, or what? I know that many readers of this article will know this already but I am worried about those who don't, to whom I fear the reasoning may currently be a bit opaque. Nomorenonotnever (talk) 08:38, 29 February 2008 (UTC)